Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Back to the original topic,The storm troopers serve the same(and do a good job as such) purpose as my 2-3 man team of crisises that I load with meltas for about the same points cost.
I deep strike them behind enemy tanks, Pop the tank(unless I roll bad) then the squad gets munched because an enemy in your backfield becomes THE priority target.

But the problem is right now they don't do that, because H-Vets do that job better.

5 Storm Troopers w/2 BS4 Meltaguns + Drop Troops = 75 Points
5 Hardened Veterans w/3 BS4 Meltaguns + Drop Troops = 75 Points

Now, if we ignore the fact that H-Vets are Target Number 1 for the GW Nerfcannon come the new Codex, we're left with two units that are doing the same role, only one is much better than the other.

Storm Troopers are the Guard version of Delta Force/SAS. They are special forces, and need to be treated as such. A bunch of grizzled infantryman can't be better than them.

BYE

Hey H.M.B.C., did you peruse the storm trooper concept that I mentioned? Would like to benefit from your IG experience. Im really fond of the idea of a coverfire rule for the IG and for a new SAW(squad assault weapon).

As it stands the rules for veterans and storm troopers make the two very similar in how they lend themselves to be used. There really should be more distinction between the two, aside from a better armor save or an extra special weapon.

First, there should be a seperation of roles, Storm troopers are supposed to be heavy infantry, they should not have infiltrate. On the other hand Veteran units are often the units sent on recon or sent ahead of the main force, thus they should be the ones to have infiltrate, with storm troopers having deep strike exclusively. On some level I am tempted to say Storm Troopers should lose chimeras as an option and be relegated to only getting to choose Valkeries, but I don't believe in limiting play style. I think putting heavy weapons and sniper rifles into storm trooper squads only further confuses roles. Looking at the proposed structure of 3 speacial weapons or 2 special weapons and mobile heavy weapon, I think the first fits storm troopers while the latter fits veterans.

(Second) Another important distinction between storm troopers and veterans is "by the book" vs battlefield experiance. This is something that'd be hard to represent I think. Lets just say there are more gnarled up guardsmen with big knives in veteran squads than in storm trooper squads. This difference in battlefield knowledge or styles might be represented by veterans being able to self organize into fire teams or combat squads of any size while stormtroopers are limited to following the marine style combat squads. Storm troopers are breaking into the by the book squad formations while veterans might allow their sniper or heavy bolter weilding squad mate run off on his own to cause trouble.

I said this in another thread, but I think it fits here as well:

aka_mythos wrote: I think it'd be more interesting to run with the idea that a veteran squad is effectively the remnants of a platoon that went through the grinder. 50 went in 10 came out, and those 10 are carrying all the guns. Possibly with a Lt. still leading them, the unit becomes more distinct than stormtroopers.

This kinda plays into the aspect of how equipment defines the units. Storm troopers are given respirators and carapce armor because they are expected to jump out of Valkeries and go into dangerous environmental conditions, something veterans would be ill equiped to do. Storm troopers recieve hellguns because they are expected to go into areas where heavy support isn't always possible, into caves or space hulks that are too cramped for heavy arms. Veterans on the other hand are front line troops, who through the attrition of war have seen their ranks dwindle; their only benefit in all this is the ability to scavenge what they need off their fallen commrades. Veterans are the guardsmen that were either ridiculously lucky or ridiculously tough enough to survive. Veterans might have storm bolters or heavy stubbers, not because they were issued them but because they ripped it off their now smoldering Chimera.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Now, if we ignore the fact that H-Vets are Target Number 1 for the GW Nerfcannon come the new Codex, we're left with two units that are doing the same role, only one is much better than the other.

Hopefully, the hardened vets won't get hit quite as hard with the nerf stick - rather, the "nerfing" will make it so you need to have the full set up of the three special weapons and the one heavy weapons, as opposed to having the unit, in its most powerful form, be "Sarge, three meltas and the the redshirt who will always have the first wound assigned to him cus all he's got's a flashlight."

H.B.M.C. wrote:if we ignore the fact that H-Vets are Target Number 1 for the GW Nerfcannon come the new Codex

Why would GW nerf Hardened vets? They're only a highly customizable unit with no official models.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:if we ignore the fact that H-Vets are Target Number 1 for the GW Nerfcannon come the new Codex

Why would GW NOT nerf Hardened vets? They're only a highly customizable unit with no official models.

Fixed your quote.

I think veterans will either get a re-imagining rules wise and actual models, or they're gonna be heavily nerfed. They don't have all that much going for them any ways. The problem with being IG is when you're already on the bottom you expect everything to make it worse.

I bet we'll see some metal IG veterans to go with updated rules and that they'll probably get abilities similar to the marine scouts and bike scouts.

Looking at thw new SM codex I don't think the vets will get overly nerfed. More like a clarification of rolls.
As it stands hardened vets dont get deep strike without doctrine where storms do. A further defining would help, give the storms access to warrior weapons(chainswords)and improved tactica (some special rule to make them special)due to their training.

I'm inclined to say veterans are the ones more likely to get warrior weapon options. I might be biased by my view of what I think veterans should be, but I think they will get lasgun, laspistol, and close combat weapon as standard, with the option to upgrade different weapons. Veterans are uber line guardmen, while storm troopers are something entirely different.

Well, I was reading my copy of the Imperial Munitorum Manual....


And came across the entery for Hellgun. To paraphrase:

1. Hellgun fires *more* rapidly than a normal lasgun
2. Hellgun is able to penetrate armor better than a normal lasgun
3. Hellgun is about as powerful as a normal lasgun.


So, I am going to have to say that 18" Str3 ap5 Assault3 really sounds good to me.

The idea that ST need Str5 to handle higher toughness targets, seems to forget that ST can also take Plasma/melta guns to do that.

I agree with BoxAnt, Str3 ap5, assault 3. THe question is, at what cost?

... well easy answer look for an army with a simmilar set up ... DireAvengers are nearly the same. so 12pts? may be 13-14 since they get one more shot

Keep the 12 pts, the avengers have better physical stats.

If something is worth twice (or more) the cost of the basic unit, it better be worth twice as much.

Is a 12 point Stormtrooper more durable than a 5-6 point Guardsmen? Not really. 4+ save doesn't mean much in this day and age, not with 4+ cover saves floating around everywhere. They're both T3. They're both W1.

So what makes them worth 12 points each? Especially when they're non-scoring?

BYE

I don't know if its proper for a non-heavy weapon to be a 3 shot weapon. By virtue of bumping it from Rapid Fire to Assault you are establishing the representation of a higher rate of fire. By making it assault 3, not only is it without precedent, but also its a redundant representation of the feature you're trying to portray. Maybe I'm missing something, but is there a single assault 3 weapon that isn't either something restricted to an IC?

I have no problem with a R24 S3 AP5 Assault 2 hellgun, but bumping it up to assault 3 is putting it in the league of weapons that have cyclic rates in the thousands of shots per minute instead of the hundreds of shots that a decently accurate weapon would have to maintain ease of aiming.

I went and pulled out my copy of the same text Imperial Munitorum Manual, just to check what was being paraphrased. I don't disagree with it, I however disagree with how you're trying to represent it. First I think there is a bit much to be well represented. The traits of the hell gun are that it:
1) Fires "full auto"
2) Has improved Armor Piercing
3) Has greater Stopping power against unarmored targets
4) Is gyro stabilized

Relative to a lasgun (1) should be represented only by making it "assault." The improved armor piercing is also already covered with AP 5. That leaves (3), where if 40k weren't limited to a scale of 10 a hellgun would be the next point higher than a lasgun for that reason I toss it in with (4). When you look at (1), (3), and (4) together I think it becomes appropriate to give the weapon "twin linked," since it (1) has a higher volume of fire, (3) higher lethality, (4) made more accurate by a component of its mechanism.

Hellgun:
R24 S3 AP5 Assault 2, Twin Linked

I think this is appropriate not just for the above reasons, but also because it mirrors the relationship between marines and terminators, bolters and storm bolter drawing a parallel "elite" status between guard and storm trooper. This is fitting because storm troopers are deployed on much of the same sort of missions terminators are.

I do believe outside the context of the hellgun the Storm Troopers need some thing else to make them better and distinctive. I think giving them the third special weapon option and nerfing the Veteran squads inherent third choice is a step in the right direction. Veteran squads should then get some other equally worthwhile option.

EDIT: I think any Storm trooper that exceeds 10pts is a hard sell to make worth while. Storm Troopers should come out to 55pts for 5 storm troopers, get one flamers free (may upgrade at cost), have deep strike built in, and have the better hellguns, with the option of paying 55 points for another 5 storm troopers with two more upgradable flamers.

H.B.M.C.,It would be the weaponry that raised their value. If you dont think assault 3, access to high ap assault weapons, deepstrike, and any other special gifts that the troopers will get is worth 12 pts then your not looking for a balanced army.
Compare assault 3 range 18" str 3 ap 5 troopers
to Tau assault 1 range 18 str 5 ap 5 pathfiders
plus access to reasonably priced hero killers.

Yes it compares elites to fast attack. Elites "should" cost more and "should" have more punch. As an opposing player I think the Troopers should have more punch.

By definition "Storm Troopers" are infiltration and assault specialist. Make them your assault and warrior weapon toting Dealta force with move through cover, infiltrate, deep strike, and (what the heck) for the appropriate pts put them in power armor. Make them elite, not just another guard unit.

Give the cover fire tactic I mentioned earlier to the vetrans. Take away their infiltrate and make them a company of seargents with access to seargent wargear and or 2 hvy weapons per squad.

Doctor Thunder wrote:Why would GW nerf Hardened vets? They're only a highly customizable and supremely hyper-efficient unit with no official models.

Yup, question's answered!

just had a funny idea storm troopers are ment to be the toughest a human can be without becoming a SM? Why not give the guys Feel no Pain ... with T3 & 4+ save its not over kill but against small arms fire they'll live longer then regular guardsmen

If they had cranial implants, I could see FNP. But these are still humans with good gear, so USRs shouldn't really be used.

aka_mythos wrote:I don't know if its proper for a non-heavy weapon to be a 3 shot weapon. By virtue of bumping it from Rapid Fire to Assault you are establishing the representation of a higher rate of fire. By making it assault 3, not only is it without precedent, but also its a redundant representation of the feature you're trying to portray. Maybe I'm missing something, but is there a single assault 3 weapon that isn't either something restricted to an IC?

Tau Burst Cannon

To be honest, either Assault3 18" or Assault2 24" would be great. Assault2 24" (although not as much punch) would a) be IG version of stormbolter b) allow for better short range skirmishing, that is to say, you would not be in range of a responding rapidfire.

As for the cost of the unit, i basically comes down to two options.

1) 10 pts, for basically the same thing we have now + new hellgun + free deepstrike and infiltrate. I think this would make ST a very cost effective unit.

2) bump price to 12pts, but add abilities. The question is what abilities?

a) Veteran abilities that you pick at start of battle: Tank Hunter, Counter-charge, scout, stealth, move through cover, furious charge, night vision, ect Or something like that. Basically give you another option to help face certain targets.

b) Give them access to 3 special weapons, make it so they can reroll their dice to see if they come in that turn, and reroll dice to scatter, ect.

c) something else




One thing to keep in mind is that if they become more powerful (which looks like will be the case if any of the options being thrown around happen) then the option to tkae ST as Troops should be limited or removed.

If we want ST to be the IG badasses then imo they should be limited in number to represent this. And I would rather have a hard cap on their number than have them simply be priced so high that you would never want to field them.

Storm troopers I don't see infiltrating as much as deep striking or coming in on Valkyries. They certainly shouldn't have power armor. Delta force isn't really a move through cover sort of task force either, so if that's what we should shoot for some need to read up more.
I think when you make the comparison to Pathfinders it only shows how much Storm troopers should only be 10pts. As its been established, S5 significantly better than S3. There is little or no chance of storm troopers having something that's assault 3, its unprecedented.
Access to a weapon should not be considered as part of the price of the unit, the price of that weapon is the price of that weapon.

Pathfinders have marklights, carbines, scout.
Stormtrooper have hellguns, and better BS.

Everything else a storm trooper has is or will likely be paid for separately.

I think there is a possibility that that storm troopers lose infiltrate and that the only way they will be able to deep strike will be on Valkyries.

BoxANT wrote: As for the cost of the unit, i basically comes down to two options.

1) 10 pts, for basically the same thing we have now + new hellgun + free deepstrike and infiltrate. I think this would make ST a very cost effective unit.

2) bump price to 12pts, but add abilities. The question is what abilities?

a) Veteran abilities that you pick at start of battle: Tank Hunter, Counter-charge, scout, stealth, move through cover, furious charge, night vision, ect Or something like that. Basically give you another option to help face certain targets.

b) Give them access to 3 special weapons, make it so they can reroll their dice to see if they come in that turn, and reroll dice to scatter, ect.

c) something else

I want option 1) but with the option to purchase 3 special weapons.

Also, I don't think they should have veteran abilities. Just because someone comes out of the Schola Progenium doesn't mean they are a veteran. To a degree, I see Storm Troopers as being a little less delta force a little more like army rangers, in that they're better because of extra training and not necessarily from participating in a lot of battle. This is what I was talking about before in discussing the blurring of lines between Hardened Veterans and Storm Troopers. Veteran and elite are not synonymous, thus storm trooper should not necessarily receive the benefits of being veterans. That is just one of a couple distinction that need to be kept in mind.

focusedfire wrote:Tau Burst Cannon

True enough. I acknowledge that, but its how big and requires what size of a model to carry it? I did speak in correctly, but I do believe it to be less than firm footing for storm troopers to receive hellguns that drastic.

Just wikipedia storm trooper and you'll see why they should have the infiltrate and everything else. And Delta force move through cover depends on mission and theater of operation. As to weapon or access to such not defining cost, tell it to the Tau.

Storm Troopers bs 4 wounds a third more per shot, str 3 50% less effective in given rolls,assault 2 twice as many shots at 24" range getting 6" range advantage (assault 3 at 18" is equal range) deep strike,infiltrate, and not required to take overpriced transport.
Pathfinders bs3 wounds third less, strth 5 wounds twice as much per shot( as soon as troopers get assault 2 at 24" advantage is to troopers). Carbines have range 18" assault 1. Also have yet to pin with the 'finders carbines(I play a lot of templars and SMs). While shooting markers the unit is causing no actual casualties, just insreasing the chance that another unit might. Also, pathfinders are 12 pts each, team leader adds 10 more points, and you still haven't bought grenades or the overpriced transport.

Originally the burst cannon was on a model not much more than an infantryman. Also, How much recoil does a laser have vs plasma pulse?

A lot of elite forces will not let you join fresh out of basic. You have to have some level of experience, this is represented in the vet stats.

My mental image of the two is:
Vets-2nd tour vietnam grunt.
Troopers-Special ops vietnam
Can be any war just the best visual I could come up with at this moment.

Also the storm troopers should have a rule, ability, or really spiferdoodle weapon that causes the rest of the IGs rancor towards them.

Just because GW borrows a name from something real doesn't mean we should expect it to be a direct translation of that unit.

This that should be and things that are, are often two different things. I'm saying that just having an option shouldn't cost anything. How it shouldn't be: in the old marine codex it never made sense that Shrike's Wing's cost was based on the fact they could deep strike and infiltrate, and you effectively paid for both abilities despite only ever being able to use one. How it should be: you could look at the space marine codex as taking that approach, the fact that a razorback can take other weapons is no longer included in its cost, but all its weapons are noticeably more expensive. Options that a person doesn't take shouldn't be included in their cost; maybe they are but they shouldn't be.

Elite is not veteran, they are not synonymous. This is why I drew the parallel to the Army Rangers as opposed to Delta force, relatively new soldiers can go through Rangers training, but even this has little to do with storm troopers. Simply put the IG does not have a delta force equivalent, because if some unit like delta force were needed they'd call space marines.

Storm troopers are drawn from, the war orphans of imperial officers and from the aristocracy of worlds. There doesn't appear to be any requirement of service to get to a point where a guardsmen becomes a storm trooper. Storm Troopers are storm troopers in the same way a cadet out of West Point becomes an officer. It is merely an advantage of their schooling and societal rank that they are storm troopers.

As I said before it is important to distinguish storm troopers from hardened veterans because they are not the same thing. While storm troopers may be veterans it isn't a requirement.

When it comes to comparing Tau path finders to storm troopers, remember we are talking about a hypothetical 5th edition unit rule set as opposed to a ill conceived 4th edition tau unit, that I think needs tweaking.

A plasma pulse at least as far as modern scientists theorized was seen as an intermediate step to a rail gun, that utilizes some of the technologies necessary for a rail gun combined with more conventional fire arm tech but at a lower power level. A plasma burst is generated to engulf a propel a solid projectile down a lmagnetically low charged rail. It would have a recoil in between a fire arm and a railgun. A laser, would have little or no recoil.

Hence my point that assault 3 is not out of the question on the hellgun because of no recoil. I'm an opposing player thats pushing for Guard elites to be nastier, but if you want to argue...............suurrre, keep the gun weaker.

Yes a hypothetical 5th ed that I think it'd be neat to see some very grunt or army based special rules. Such as a cover or supressor fire rule for either squad then "not" the other.

Again, I ask, in this dream rule set is there anything that I proposed as special weapons or rules you could see as beneficial? If so, Which squads would you give them to or how would you tweek them?

I absolutely agree about a further defining, its why I think going back to the traditional definition will help. What this defining will lead to is one squad as an assault team and the other as ranged.Which is why I see them getting an assault 18" ranged weapon.

Vets would be more skilled in set up of fields of fire and how to hit enemy armour. 2 lascannons in a squad with tankhunters?

My personal experience in the military, was that the west pointers were better leaders than some rotc party boy that couldn't find a regular world job in their major so the military was their failsafe.
And training and education are the primary factors in the ranks up to seargent. Its why people graduate tech school at E-5.

Your having the choice deep strike or infiltrate effects how your opponent plans his deployment and builds his army. It's logical that its built into the cost.

The idea of Veteran abilities was not so much to show that the Storm Troopers actually actually veterans, but more to show that the ST are equiped/specialized to take out a certain type of target for that mission.

I think ST should be able to adapt to your opponent and be able to specialize in taking out a certain targets. Be it armor, high toughness, infantry, ect.

Make them kinda like scouts bikers, in as much that they come with special rules that allow for disruption and confusion amongst the enemy.