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Johns really just stating how the volume of fire of IG require the enemy to make that many more saves. When your main advantage is volume, having a few models with higher strength values would likely end up as a drop in the bucket.

Or, let's say the IG and Chaos both roll normally. Typhus has little to fear from anything that isn't AP2, whether it's S3, S4, S5 or S7.

And besides, you cherry-picked a best case example with Typhus (who neither should be trying to kill via Lasgun / Hellgun). If you look at fighting against typical enemy T3 GEQs, Storms are only 67% better, wounding on a 2+, vs Guardsmen on a 4+.

Oh, noes?

With S5 Hellguns, Storms can engage targets that are simply out of reach for ordinary Guardsmen. They even have limited ability against armored targets.

With Deep Stirke, they can even get to where their shooting can do some good.

Compared to PA Sisters, Storms are properly shootier but not as resilient.

So what's the problem?

That GW might revise the Fluff and rules again?

Sourclams, I applaud you for having the patience to deal with this troll. Or perhaps it's determination...Or simply a hatred of arguments rank with BS and sour logic.

I think we've reached that point in the conversation where John has realized his arguments are absolutely worthless (not to imply that they were substantive to begin with, we just hadn't quite become nauseated), and now feels that in order to compensate he just spews more of them -- words, that is -- into the thread in a futile attempt to give his arguments impact.

At this point, I would say we've done all we can do for him.

CK

I am so glad I'm not the only one here who sees this! Soon everyone will know and he'll just vanish...

Corpsman you made my day!

BYE

@COK: Let me see if I got this right:

I believe that Hellguns should be R24" S5 AP- RF, instead of R24" S3 AP5 A2 and when I argue the point, that makes me a Troll?

Wow, just wow.

If you can't handle a simple disagreement in opinion over Proposed Rules, maybe you should go to Warseer.

John,

Disagreeing with me doesn't make you a troll. Dismissing everything everyone else adds to the discussion, thoughtful and intelligent those additions may be -- and then figuratively sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "lalalalalala" at the top of your lungs -- does.

CK

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you can't handle a simple disagreement in opinion over Proposed Rules, maybe you should go to Warseer.

Yeah, because Warseer is sooo much worse than a forum full of opinionated spankers with giant egos and no common sense....

Now who's not being polite.



BYE

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:Sourclams, I applaud you for having the patience to deal with this troll. Or perhaps it's determination...Or simply a hatred of arguments rank with BS and sour logic.

I think we've reached that point in the conversation where John has realized his arguments are absolutely worthless (not to imply that they were substantive to begin with, we just hadn't quite become nauseated), and now feels that in order to compensate he just spews more of them -- words, that is -- into the thread in a futile attempt to give his arguments impact.

At this point, I would say we've done all we can do for him.

CK

I agree with you completely, however people do ultimately come to these forums for advice on how to "improve" their game, whatever that may mean for them. Making sure that the chaffy ideas are explicitly labeled "DON'T DO THIS, FOR REAL!!!" is, in my opinion, the responsibility of any serious gaming community. But yeah, I'm with you and HBMC 100% on this one.

And besides, you cherry-picked a best case example with Typhus (who neither should be trying to kill via Lasgun / Hellgun). If you look at fighting against typical enemy T3 GEQs, Storms are only 67% better, wounding on a 2+, vs Guardsmen on a 4+.

No, I picked a valid example to show the ludicrousness of increasing weapon Strength as arbitrarily as you propose. Armor Penetration is only useful against one type of target: those with the relevant armor stat and a toughness value low enough to be affected. Strength is useful against everything in the damn game. "Only 67% better" versus GEQs, are you serious? "Only 67%", good lord, what if your boss decided to cut your pay to $3.00 per hour. "It's only a 67% reduction in pay!"

And that's a cherry-picked example to favor your side of the argument. Now let's look at a T4 target (you know, since the majority of models sold by GW are T4):

Lasgun - wounds on 5-6
S5 Cheesecannon - wounds on 3-6

Good lord, the Cheesecannon is 200% better.

Let's get really extreme, what happens against T5?

Lasgun - 6
Cheesecannon - 4,5,6

It's better than a pyramid scheme! My weapon is 300% better!

With S5 Hellguns, Storms can engage targets that are simply out of reach for ordinary Guardsmen. They even have limited ability against armored targets.

That's the problem. S5 Ap/- rapid fire weaponry is so stupid good that stormtroopers go from 'Oh, no' to 'HELL YES', but it's not in a flavorful, sensible way in sync with the rules. 10 point BS4 S5 means Guardsmen capable of outshooting Marines, Sisters, and Eldar. That makes absolutely no sense within the background. The strength of IG is the amount of guns, not their technological superiority to all of the aforementioned.

Compared to PA Sisters, Storms are properly shootier but not as resilient.

Which, again, makes no sense.

yakface wrote:
Storm Troopers have a specialized role in the fluff, and that role doesn't include carrying heavy weapons (which would slow them down).

They are the kind of unit that infiltrates or drops down through skylights in a movie and assassinates the priority target.

If heavy weapons are needed for the job then its not the right job for storm troopers (by the fluff).

I call BS, here is photographic proof that storm troopers use heavy weapons

Just a question to all reading this thread. If I read correctly, there are three conflicting viewpoints.

John = Str5 ap- 10 points a pop
Clams = give them bolters (or something so close to bolters that you might as well just call them bolters) 8-9 points a pop. DS, ifiltrate for free
Other = fine the way they are, drop the points to 8-9 make them troops, DS, ifiltrate for free.

Me personally I don't think that any talk about storm troopers can take place with out including the firewarrior in the discussions. I mean lord knows all of the tau armies I have seen bulked out with nothing but these guys and their over powered str5 guns.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

yakface wrote:
Storm Troopers have a specialized role in the fluff, and that role doesn't include carrying heavy weapons (which would slow them down).

They are the kind of unit that infiltrates or drops down through skylights in a movie and assassinates the priority target.

If heavy weapons are needed for the job then its not the right job for storm troopers (by the fluff).

I call BS, here is photographic proof that storm troopers use heavy weapons

This alone keeps this thread from being closed.

Modquisition on:
Gentlemen, this is a reminder to be polite. I do not desire to close this thread due to trollike attacks, but will if necessary.
Modquisition off:

I think you pretty much got the break down right. I don't know if it was explicitly stated, but I think that the 10pts, S5 versions include Infiltrate and DS for free.

Foil, your point about tau is a good one. I don't think it steals to much thunder to have as an elite what other armies have with their troops.

Lets take a minute, is it game breaking to have an elite option with S5 weapons? No, other units in other armies have more extreme things as elites, the tau have it with their troops. So as long as the points reflect it, its fair. That only leaves fluff as the justification for prohibiting such a unit, within the context of the IG a big battery and more than juiced up lasgun ends up between a lasgun and a multi-laser. The only thing that prohibits the IG from having it is the fact SM's are suppose to have better weapons. This is a sad symptom of the overcrowding of fluff for the forces of the imperium, that IG are justified not by what they are but more by what they aren't; they're defined by not being marines and prhoibited from encroaching on that most sacred of turf.

Str 5 no Ap should be fine for fluff. After all, plasmas, meltas, storm bolters, and sniper rifles are better than bolters. Logically all marines should be armed with one of those, but aren't.

While I have a preference for the fluff that a hopped up lasgun should be a higher AP the Str 5 variant is fine as well. We are talking only equal to a common Tau trooper.

I seriously don't understand how people see raising the AP from 5 to - as some sort of drawback.

How many armies would actually be affected by the difference in AP? 3 total?

Orks: KFF, cover saves all 'round, irrelevant
Dark Eldar: hugging cover, riding in skimmers, or assaulting out of open topped vehicles, irrelevant
Imperial Guard: hugging cover or riding in transports, irrelevant

If we're going to just flat out say that hellguns should be S5, okay, whatever, I think this'd result in 15 point stormtroopers and then we'd be stuck straight back in 'Nobody takes these models because they cost too much' land. I don't agree, but I can accept that. Alright.

But if we're going to try to make the claim that S5/AP- is exactly the same thing as S4/Ap5, well, this to me looks flat out false.

Frazzled wrote:While I have a preference for the fluff that a hopped up lasgun should be a higher AP the Str 5 variant is fine as well. We are talking only equal to a common Tau trooper.

From the fluff side I think there is justification to go with either. Both the multi-lasers and lascannons are hopped up versions of the same technology taken to different ends and extremes. We have hellguns, but their also exist hot-shot lasgun and long-las that also take this same "las" technology to different ends. It shows a degree of flexibility in the universe with the technology. In a real world sense, it could be justified by the amount of energy/heat in a shot, the diameter of the "las" beam, or the length of the "las" beam.

sourclams wrote:I seriously don't understand how people see raising the AP from 5 to - as some sort of drawback.
...
But if we're going to try to make the claim that S5/AP- is exactly the same thing as S4/Ap5, well, this to me looks flat out false.

Lets just say, Stormtroopers recieve S5/AP-, how much better do they really become? They pretty much become equivalent to a Tau. How much does an equivalently armed Tau cost? Take that cost, consider the general cost down, then add for the ability to DS and infiltrate, that should be the cost. I don't have a Tau Codex, someone should objectively add that up. Even with S5/AP- hellguns, I'd be surprised to see them being more than a marine scout.

((*EDIT: Aaargh!!! Curse your faulty formatting!!! I think it's easier to read if you "Reply Quote" so that the text appears in the Message Body Field. Just an FYI))

Since we're moving toward the view of Storm Troopers as a whole (and not just their standard weapon), I wish to present my proposed rule set for Storm Troopers:

I've written it in the 5th Edition Style that we're seeing so much of in the new Codices.

* * * * *

Storm Trooper Squad 50pts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Trooper 3 4 3 3 1 3 1 8 4+
Sergeant 3 4 3 3 1 3 2 8 4+
Comm LT 4 4 3 3 2 3 2 10 4+

Unit Composition
1 Storm Trooper Sergeant
4 Storm Troopers

Unit Type
Infantry

Wargear
Storm Trooper Sergeant
Hellpistol
Close Combat Weapon
Storm Troopers
Hellgun
All
Targeter
Frag & Krak Grenades
Carapace Armor

Special Rules

Hardened Fighters: May regroup if falling back, even if under half strength. All other restrictions apply.

Infiltrate: May use Infiltrate USR during deployment.

Iron Discipline: This rule only applies if a Commissariat Lieutenant is present in the Squad. As long as the Commissariat Lieutenant lives, the Squad may re-roll all failed Morale and Leadership checks.

Suspensor Mounts: Certain Special and Heavy Weapons have been modified to allow Storm Troopers to fire on the move. All Rapid Fire weapons may elect to fire as an Assault 1 weapon up to the maximum range of the weapon, and all Heavy X weapons may elect to fire as an Assault X, at half range (i.e., the Heavy Stubber may fire as Heavy 3 at 36” or as Assault 3 at 18”).

Options:
Storm Trooper Sergeant:
- May replace his Hellpistol with one of the following:
Hellgun, Shotgun, Bolt Pistol - - free
Plasma Pistol - - - - +10pts
Storm Bolter - - - - +3pts
- May replace his Close Combat Weapon with one of the following:
Power Weapon - - - +5pts
Power Fist - - - - +15pts
- May take any of the following:
Refractor Field - - - +10pts
Operandi Imperialis (+1 Ld) - +10pts
Melta Bombs - - - - +5pts
- May be upgraded to a Commissariat Lieutenant with Carapace Armor, Hellpistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag & Krak Grenades and a Targeter for +25pts. He may take everything that is available to the Storm Trooper Sergeant, with the exception of the Operandi Imperialis.
-
Squad:
- May add 5 Storm Troopers to squad for +45pts
- Any model may replace their Hellgun with a Shotgun or a Hellpistol and Close Combat Weapon for free.
- Up to two Storm Troopers may replace their Hellgun with one of the following (cost of suspensor mount is already included):
Meltagun - - - - +10pts
Plasma Gun - - - - +10pts
Grenade Launcher - - - +5pts
Flamethrower - - - - +5pts
Sniper Rifle - - - - +5pts
- One Storm Trooper may replace its Hellgun with one of the following:
Heavy Stubber - - - - +10pts
Heavy Flamer - - - - +10pts
Sniper Rifle - - - - +5pts

Transport:
Storm Trooper Squad my take a Chimera Dedicated Transport. However in doing so they will forfeit their ability to Infiltrate. See Codex: Imperial Guard for more information about the Chimera.

Weapon Rules:
Range Strength AP Type
Hellgun 24” 3 5 Assault 2
Hellpistol 18” 3 5 Pistol

* * * * *

What do you all think? I tried to make them a decent mid-range mobile unit that can lay down a large amount of antipersonnel fire, I included ways for people to use them as a blunt, in-your-face squad, with Flamethrowers, a Heavy Flamer, shotguns, close combat weapons, and a beefed up W2 Commissar Lieutenant to improve Leadership and combat ability. Not a Space Marine Assault Squad, mind you, but a great, versatile unit that can be equally effective on an open field (with three Sniper Rifles and plenty of medium range small arms) as it can be in a dense urban battlefield, with Flamethrowers, Shotguns, and Meltas aplenty.

Comments and Constructive Feedback are welcome and appreciated.

CK

The shotguns would, of course, be:
Ra 12", Str 4, AP -, Assault 2

CK

Clams, ap - is a huge drawback! What is the difference between

str 5 ap 6
and
str 5 ap -
??????????

Run both guns againt the side of a chimera, or a land speeder, or any other av10 or av11 vehical. Then get back to me. ap- means still good against troops, but not so good against tanks.

Corpsman_of_Krieg ... nice though i'd lose the sniper rifles

and change the 'Suspensor Mounts' to also be Slow and purposeful (they're not gray knights)

Sniper rifle doesn't really fit, I agree. Suspensors are rare and hardly given to marines so in the very least you'd only see them on the heavy weapons and the Heavy Flamer is already assault, so I don't think you need to write the suspensor description the way you did.

The transport option should include the Valkyrie, since that seems to be a pretty definite thing.

I still think hellguns should be reworked.

foil7102 wrote:Clams, ap - is a huge drawback! What is the difference between

str 5 ap 6
and
str 5 ap -
??????????

Run both guns againt the side of a chimera, or a land speeder, or any other av10 or av11 vehical. Then get back to me. ap- means still good against troops, but not so good against tanks.

Yeah except that has nothing to do with comparing S5/AP- to S4/Ap5. They're roughly equal against vehicles (which you wouldn't be shooting anyways), but S5 is better against all other units in all other scenarios except for GEQs standing the middle of a field. And that happens all the time, right?

No, seriously, right?

sourclams wrote:I seriously don't understand how people see raising the AP from 5 to - as some sort of drawback.

How many armies would actually be affected by the difference in AP? 3 total?

But if we're going to try to make the claim that S5/AP- is exactly the same thing as S4/Ap5, well, this to me looks flat out false.

"Above edited for clarity"

Sorry, but I was just trying to explain how ap - is a draw back. As far as your other argument that S5/ap- is the same as S4/ap5... I don't think that anyone is making that statement. I think that everyone agrees that s5 is better than s4. The argument is that S5/ap- is worth two points compared to S4/ap5 . I would Pay 10points for a stormie with a s5/ap- gun. I would also pay 8 points for a stormie with a s4/ap5 gun. I would even think about paying 8 points for a stormie with a str3 assault 3 gun (my favorite suggestion so far by the way). What I would not do is pay 10 points for a stormie with a S4/ap5 gun.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:Suspensor Mounts: Certain Special and Heavy Weapons have been modified to allow Storm Troopers to fire on the move. All Rapid Fire weapons may elect to fire as an Assault 1 weapon up to the maximum range of the weapon, and all Heavy X weapons may elect to fire as an Assault X, at half range (i.e., the Heavy Stubber may fire as Heavy 3 at 36” or as Assault 3 at 18”).

I really like this. I agree the sniper rifle shouldn't be in there, as I can't coneptualize a stormtrooper kicking down a door and going for 1337 headshots, but this rule makes them distinctly 'elite' while providing mobile firepower for a decent cost.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that rule, I just think its a bit round about, how you wrote it. Make the heavy stubber the only weapon with a suspensor, in the traditional sense, and make the other weapons similarly so by virtue of a different rule header. Like having the same rule but calling "Close Engagement Tactics" or some Imperium latin giberish about how they come from the Schola ------icus. Simplify it to just that even if they make a normal move they can make a single shot at maximum range.

Digging Corpsman's rules, though I'm not super keen on the heavy stubber/flamer/sniper rule, though I could live with it.

Sorry, forgot to mention that Sniper Rifles may not use the "Suspensor Mount."

The rule was put in there so that the squad could shoot on the fly, not so that they could act like a high-mobility sniper team.

Basically, Plasma Guns are Assault 1, and Heavy Stubbers are Assault 3 at 18" or Heavy 3 at 36". No Sniper Assault shots.

CK

Corpsman,IMHO i think the proposed idea makes them a little to powerful. I like frazzleds idea of S3AP3. I've noticed frazz has a natural nack of looking for balance. Just needs to tweek the profile a little.

How about this .......Hellgun R18" S3 AP3 Assault 2. (or maybe AP4)Maybe give the gun a frag launcher for a few extra pts that makes the gun rending.
Dump the snipers and heav weapons. With the hell pistols(normal range) give them chainswords at +1strength.
Also, give them a new coverfire gun "the autoshot"or "Hellshot", A range 18 S4 AP-assault 4 automatic shotgun with a new coverfire rule(any wounds suffered from it halves your opponents initiative. These are the kind of things I envision when I hear the words Storm Troopers.

As far as increasing the strength, to Tau like and way to cheap compared to the Tau(10 pts for Ws2 Bs3 S3 T3 A1 I2 Sv4+ with no deepstrike, infiltrate, assault weapons, cc weapons of any type, or heav weapons options for the FW)

I would have to disagree in that I believe AP3 is way too nasty for something that is supposed to be a beefy Lasgun. In addition, with the propensity of Cover Saves in 5th, I believe that Storm Troopers are going to see more utility out of an improved rate of fire, which brings us to the autoshot:

Str4 AP4? That will halve your initiative if you are wounded by it? Isn't that a little too good for 10points apiece? I think that Storm Troopers should have the ability to be midrange riflemen as well as CQB specialists, but giving them +1Str chainswords and what is effectively a pair of Bolters as standard equipment seems a little too good -- certainly more powerful than the configuration I tried to give them.

Here's a sample unit from the entry I created for Storm Troopers:

Storm Trooper Squad (10) - 138pts
Storm Trooper Sergeant w/ Storm Bolter, Operandi Imperialis
Storm Troopers (9) w/ Plasma Gun (2), Heavy Stubber

The above is a medium-range fire team that can provide a decent amount of antipersonnel while being capable of dealing with heavier infantry. This squad would struggle with heavier armor.

Firepower Output:
2 Storm Bolter shots
3 Heavy Stubber shots
2 Plasma Gun shots
12 Hellgun shots

Here's a close-engagement version:

Storm Trooper Squad (10) - 150pts
Commissariat Lieutenant w/ Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Meltabombs
Storm Troopers (9) w/ Flamethrower (2), Heavy Flamer, Shotgun (6)

This unit, designed for dense terrain, would be a nasty little unit to deal with in the rear of your army. Outflanking with this squad into a terrain feature on the fringe of the board would make for a fun burnfest. The Commissariat LT's high Leadership of 10 would keep them from running, and the 3 Template weapons and Shotguns would tear up most units, followed by a mop-up round of Assault from the LT's power weapon. The points cost may be a bit high for this unit due to the Commissariat Lieutenant, but that's what the regular Sergeant and the Operandi Imperialis is for.

Firepower Output:
12 Shotgun shots (Str4 AP-)
2 Flamethrower Templates
1 Heavy Flamer Template
1 Bolt Pistol shot

* * * * *

I hope that better explains my proposed Unit Entry.

CK

Sorry about the word give. It would be of course an upgrade that you pay for.

Everything else......AP3? I like that the S3 keeps it from over powering and the range and rof combination are a good balance. IG already full of ranged riflemen, was trying to put the Storm back in the Storm troopers.Your Probably right about the AP5 Just figured that the S3 whould keep the ap in check. I still like the my idea for a grenade launcher option, though.

The auto sho was AP- and would be a new special weapon, maybe a 1 per squad thing.

As far as 10 pts per model, it can go up if it means a truly effective squad of glory boys. Figured the cost would balance out with the upgrade purchases.

The buyable upgrades I hadn't worked the mathout so I didn't give a price but the ideas seemed more in line than giving them heavies. They also would still have access to the meltas,plas, flamers, and such.Just my opinion though.

Do you like any of the weapon ideas, at least in concept?