Is this guy a scammer or legit? (ebay) ( newer scams now Feb 4 2009 and going!)

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**Relapse**

After seeing the Ork auction, I'd have to say the guy's taking advantage of the uninitiated in 40k.

**Howard A Treesong**

Relapse wrote: After seeing the Ork auction, I'd have to say the guy's taking advantage of the uninitiated in 40k.

Not being familiar with the AOBR box, the orks included are not the same as the Greed Tide box?

So he's comparing apples and oranges then, and selling the oranges with a picture of apples, the caveat being "You will receive everything in the second picture, note the first picture is for display purposes only..."

Reference only eh? Excellent reference, it pictures a different product.

**LunaHound**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Relapse wrote: After seeing the Ork auction, I'd have to say the guy's taking advantage of the uninitiated in 40k.

Not being familiar with the AOBR box, the orks included are not the same as the Greed Tide box?

So he's comparing apples and oranges then, and selling the oranges with a picture of apples, the caveat being "You will receive everything in the second picture, note the first picture is for display purposes only..."

Reference only eh? Excellent reference, it pictures a different product.

Green Tide is basically special deal of lots of ork boy kits ( multiposeable , weapon options ,accessories , )
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020014&prodId=prod1060163

AOBR is just generic 2 piece easy snap fit ones . the 2 Ork boys are completely different products ... hence why im
definately convinced hes a scam artist. Not just misunderstanding etc etc.

**insaniak**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:My biggest problem is using stock pictures which categorically do not show the correct items for sale.

Yup, that one's dodgy.

Although, again, we're left merely making assumptions about his intentions. It's possible (if not as fun to bash anonymously on the internet) that he simply thought that the painted picture was close enough to give an idea of what he was selling.

If that were the case, he would legitimise it a little by pointing out that the actual models supplied are different from those pictured... and the fact he doesn't do so certainly doesn't make him look good. But there's always the chance that he's not actually deliberately trying to mislead people.

Some people just don't stop and put quite as much thought into what they're doing as they possibly should.

**LunaHound**

But the biggest problem this time isnt just the confusing wordings. He is actually promoting this sale as a product that isnt what he claims to be.

I know he'll attempt to get off the hook by stating
"but i pointed out its AOBR"

but not this time nice try , because he already tried to establish the 3 lies .
1) pic is wrong .
2) not green tide figure
3) because its not the same product, the savings he tried to claim to promote the sale = A LIE.

**Chrysaor686**

The saddest part is...

The person who bought that set could've easily afforded two sets of AOBR, and had not only what was sold to them (and then some), but also a full-on Space Marines Army as well.

I f*cking hate ebay. I absolutely do not support it whatsoever. Not because I get scammed, but because there are always people who do.

People supporting the 'technicality' side of the arguement probably indulge in the same sort of idea.

**chaplaingrabthar**

I was leaning to 'Shady' but that Orktion led me to ou-right scammery

**Relapse**

Yup, that one's dodgy.

Although, again, we're left merely making assumptions about his intentions. It's possible (if not as fun to bash anonymously on the internet) that he simply thought that the painted picture was close enough to give an idea of what he was selling.

**insaniak**

Chrysaor686 wrote:The person who bought that set could've easily afforded two sets of AOBR, and had not only what was sold to them (and then some), but also a full-on Space Marines Army as well.

You don't get 100 Orks in two AoBR sets...

Relapse wrote: It appears he knows well enough what it is he's selling.

Absolutely. I'm not saying that he's not aware that the picture and the actual item are different. Just that it's possible that rather than being a deliberate attempt to mislead people, he simply didn't think the difference was sufficient for it to be a problem. Which would still display a certain amount of poor judgement, particularly on eBay where people are very quick to jump on anything that looks even slightly suspicious.

Not endorsing it as a listing technique ( I don't use stock images even when it is the exact same product) ... just suggesting that it's sometimes worth giving people the benefit of the doubt... A lot of the perceived scams on eBay simply come down to the seller's inexperience in business practices.

**Sazzlefrats**

Folks, its scam-like as its based on misrepresentation. When the only disclaimer is put into parenthesis () meaning that whatever is included there should be just extra clarification and now its telling you new facts about the model in question, that might tell you its a scam.

I would probably have missed the last sentenence stating that you won't be getting the assessory sprue. However, I probably would have sent the guy a question, asking specifically what is missing. Since he went into detail that the kit is on sprue and what parts can be built with the spru. He would have replied, read the last sentenence of my auction, then I would have thought him to be a jerk, and not bought the rhino.

Sure its got two things that tell you the model isn't complete, but the picture says one thing and the auction is something else. And the way that's its carefully worded lets you believe unless you read everything carefully that its complete as well.

This ebayer has all the charm and skill of a used car salesman. But with the ability to prey on dumb people such as ebay presents, well, if he had the volume to warrant it, I bet a class action suit could be levied on him. Most likely nothing will happen, and most of his buyers are savy enough to read everyline, or like me are naturally untrusting when my money is on the line, and are willing to ask a dumb question to protect their assets.

(Please note, I'm not sayings its a scam, just eluding to it. Just like the seller :p)

**JohnHwangDD**

And folks, that is what SNAD is for...

**Joyous_Oblivion**

I even sent him an Ebay PM regarding his sales practices and referenced trying to defend him on a forum, didn't mention a name though.

I'll post if he responds.

**Old Man Ultramarine**

Chrysaor686 wrote:The saddest part is...

The person who bought that set could've easily afforded two sets of AOBR, and had not only what was sold to them (and then some), but also a full-on Space Marines Army as well.

I f*cking hate ebay. I absolutely do not support it whatsoever. Not because I get scammed, but because there are always people who do.

People supporting the 'technicality' side of the arguement probably indulge in the same sort of idea.

To clarify the contents of AoBR box.....

x1 mini rulebook
templates and set of dice
x1 dreadnought
x1 sqd of 5 terminators
x1 sqd of 10 tactical
x1 captain
x1 warboss
x2 sqds of 10 ork slugga boyz w/ big shoota
x1 sqd of 5 ork nobz
x3 ork deffcoptas

On ork green tide auction......

It looks like items were cut up sprue and "completeness" of squads may be in question.

When using ebay, go in informed. Know what you are bidding on and READ the description.

**LunaHound**

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:I even sent him an Ebay PM regarding his sales practices and referenced trying to defend him on a forum, didn't mention a name though.

I'll post if he responds.

Could we see the msg you sent him?
Wow you sure have lots of tolerance for the seller's constant shady conducts,
no relations right ><?

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:

To clarify the contents of AoBR box.....

x1 mini rulebook
templates and set of dice
x1 dreadnought
x1 sqd of 5 terminators
x1 sqd of 10 tactical
x1 captain
x1 warboss
x2 sqds of 10 ork slugga boyz w/ big shoota
x1 sqd of 5 ork nobz
x3 ork deffcoptas

On ork green tide auction......

It looks like items were cut up sprue and "completeness" of squads may be in question.

When using ebay, go in informed. Know what you are bidding on and READ the description.

Im sure he meant 2 AOBR worth . As in if you count the ork boys worth as 1/5th total worth of the set.
Not the actual only 20 ork boys in the WHOLE aobr box.

**GoFenris**

My motto for EBay: If the seller. item and/or description seems wonky, go elsewhere.

It's a shame that we have EBay "Rules Lawyers" but both sides (Buyers and Sellers) often are vague or use double talk (or print) to sell things and bullying when buying. It's always been a fact of EBay. Learn the lesson and move on (rhetorical, not directed at anyone here). Yes, I've learned the hard way in the past as well.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Also note, the pic used includes Shootas and Rokkits, neither of which are part of the AoBR boxed set.....

Scam scam scam scam scam. He could only be more of a scam artist if he was a Politician running for election.

**MagickalMemories**

Sorry guys. Anyone who knows me or my Bartertown reputation knows how I feel about guys who are misleading in their dealings. I despise them.
I do have to say, though, that he never LIES and is not "slick as a used car salesman." In fact, though I believe he's "Definitely shady playing with words," it may not be intentional.
Note, the following text from his auction, which I'll break down:

You are bidding on a Brand NEW On Sprue Warhammer 40k Ork Army/Apocalypse Lot, consisting of 101 total Orks, including one Brand new Ork Warboss, 90 Brand new Ork Boyz, and 10 Brand new Ork Boys with Big Shootas. These models are all still on sprues. The best part is the Starting price is more than $100 cheaper than retail on Da Green Tide boxed set,

Everything here is plainly stated and, in NO WAY, playing word games. it's all factual, and there is NO ATTEMPT at subterfuge.

that's almost 60% off retail.

This is the dodgy part. As has been said, he's comparing apples and oranges. You can't say, "These oranges are a great deal because they're 60% of apple prices," and be legitimate.
It might not be MEANT as a misleading comment... but that's exactly what it is.

This is a perfect starting force for a new player, or an expansion force for any 40k Ork or Apocalypse Army. You will receive everything in the second picture, note the first picture is for display purposes only, the models you will receive are unbuilt and unpainted, coming from the AOBR boxed sets.

Again... Well said with no subterfuge. he spells out plainly where the models come from.

Granted, he abbreviated AOBR. Anyone who would buy this without looking up AOBR, if they don't know what it means, should NOT be buying online. You ALWAYS research what you don't know before commiting to spend money on it.

If the second part that I quoted said, "that's almost 60% cheaper than the Green Tide boxed set," I'd have no problem with this listing.

Eric

**JD21290**

Alot of word play in there, allthough he goes back on himself alot

.
also, it may be worth checking all of his auctions, chances are vehicle sprues are on there in a seperate lot

allthough, saying this, i only buy from project hydra through ebay

fast, cheap, and i get discount lol, i dont like trying out new sellers, as you can see, not all of them make life easy.

**LunaHound**

grrr like i said, the seller is a genius , his play on words is a work of art , almost like hypnotism. How he dances around the 60% discount , the pic , the title . so beautiful.

burn in hell scammer.

I have no trust in shady stuff now , the last shady sentence ( or lack of ) costed me $1000 USD

**Joyous_Oblivion**

This was our conversation...

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:I tried defending you for 4 pages on an online forum for you rhino sales, but now with your 'Green Tide' Auction, its clear you are just trying to take advantage of new or inexperienced gamers. You use inappropriate pictures, of models you are not selling, and you also claim to save people money off of the Green Tide Box, but you are not even selling the Green Tide Models, you are selling snap-fit models, not the multi-part models and metal warboss that you get in the Green Tide.

Not very nice :(

His reply...

The Warhammer Man wrote:Dear joyous_oblivion,

I'm not sure who you are but thanks anyway. As you can see in my auctions which i have been consistently running for some time now i clearly state that the models come from (AOBR). And as far as the rhinos are concerned I list the exact sprues you get, as well as (this auction does not include the vehicle upgrade sprue). If anyone has questions i answer promptly and encourage this before bidding. I also offer a full refund to anyone unhappy with their purchase. I do everything i can to answer questions and leave everyone happy! Coupled with the pictures i display on all my auctions, i have literally had 4 problems out of over 600 transactions. I appreciate your concern about the green tide. But if you knew what the green tide was, you would know that all the green tide is, is an apocalypse choice in which you field 100 orks and 1 warboss. The fact that Games workshop has made a limited edition group of 100 multi-part orks and 1 metal warboss is great! Unfortunately if you have ever assembled 100 models you would realize that it is much more convenient and much less time consuming to use the (AOBR) orks (not to mention that it saves you a heap of money). Also perhaps you haven't considered the fact that if you are fielding a green tide, you no doubt are fielding hundreds and hundreds of models not just that one squad. As an experienced gamer that has been involved since first edition, and a very high level converter My main army of space marines uses all black reach tactical marines with heavily converted characters, sergeants, etc. Perhaps you do not like these models but there are plenty of other people and many happy customers of mine that prefer them. Thanks again for your comments I hope that you understand that although you may not like snap fit models, other people do! Also with the rhinos there are thousands of people with plenty of hatches and bits that don't need to pay extra for stuff they already have, so saving them a buck is worthwhile

- war_hammer_man

I replied with...

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:No I think you are missing the point of my comment. I realize the
benefit of snap fit models and I use some in my marine army
and my ork army. My problem is not that, it is your deliberate
misleading of
bidders. Technically what you do is ok but most people consider
it a very shady way to conduct sales (according to a very
popular warhemmer website). You've got a reputation as a
scammer and your listings don't do anything to help that image.

- joyous_oblivion

He then brought this beauty out...

The Warhammer Man wrote:Dear joyous_oblivion,

lol how can i have a reputation as a scammer with over 600 feedback and 2 negative?

- war_hammer_man

and my final reply...

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:Dear war_hammer_man,

Not sure, but you definitely do. And a 99.1% feedback rating isn't very good for an ebay seller, especially one with 500+ sales.

- joyous_oblivion

So hopefully some of you can shut up with the conspiracy crap now

**LunaHound**

Thanks JO , appreciate it, i had no extra intentions when i wanted to see the message he replied, it was pure curiosity to what he would say.

Ah i forgot to bring one basic thing up if he think the products are similar.

How is he going to be counting in all the extra choppa shoota bits along with the extra accessories if he think its the same :"P

and lastly, yep hes shaddy alright. I'll suggest every ebay user to sell small bits just to increase their feedback easily -_-

P.S you like zippos :"P

**JohnHwangDD**

@JO: If he wanted to be honest, he'd limit his descriptions and pictures to what they actually are:

100 AoBR Orks + 1 AoBR Warboss.
Can be fielded as "Da Green Tide".

**LunaHound**

JohnHwangDD wrote:@JO: If he wanted to be honest, he'd limit his descriptions and pictures to what they actually are:

100 AoBR Orks + 1 AoBR Warboss.
Can be fielded as "Da Green Tide".

Straight to the point! well too bad we cant leave comments like this on his auction -_-;

also the seller using the "snap fit" as an attempt to justify their worth of " not having to spend lots of time on assembly"

is just pure fail. Next up, we need 2 piece snap fit land raiders. ( though i might like it >.> )

**Joyous_Oblivion**

JohnHwangDD wrote:@JO: If he wanted to be honest, he'd limit his descriptions and pictures to what they actually are:

100 AoBR Orks + 1 AoBR Warboss.
Can be fielded as "Da Green Tide".

Why was that directed to me?

**JohnHwangDD**

Because you're the one communicating with the SoB.

**lord_blackfang**

I've seen a "Green Tide" auction with snap fit models on ebay.co.uk, too. I was tempted, eventhough I already own 100 snap-fit boyz.

It's unfortunate that an Apocalypse Datasheet and a GW bundle deal share a name, but that's where the "misleadingness" ends. To me, a Green Tide means "100 Orks," not "10 boxes of multi-part Orks" so I don't see a problem.

**Joyous_Oblivion**

lord_blackfang wrote:I've seen a "Green Tide" auction with snap fit models on ebay.co.uk, too. I was tempted, eventhough I already own 100 snap-fit boyz.

It's unfortunate that an Apocalypse Datasheet and a GW bundle deal share a name, but that's where the "misleadingness" ends. To me, a Green Tide means "100 Orks," not "10 boxes of multi-part Orks" so I don't see a problem.

Not sure why you'd think that. The Green Tide is a product sold by GW. It is pretty specific to what it is. GW lists the models you get, and shows pics of what models you get/can make; this guy does not. He shows a pictures of a completely different and inferior product, yet praises his own sale as the GW "Green Tide".

**LunaHound**

lord_blackfang wrote:I've seen a "Green Tide" auction with snap fit models on ebay.co.uk, too. I was tempted, eventhough I already own 100 snap-fit boyz.

It's unfortunate that an Apocalypse Datasheet and a GW bundle deal share a name, but that's where the "misleadingness" ends. To me, a Green Tide means "100 Orks," not "10 boxes of multi-part Orks" so I don't see a problem.

Tell that to the people that buys the actual set to find out there is no extra weapon option and accessory sprues in it.

Consider how they'll feel?

There are reasons why kits sells for more.

If i know where you live, i will go and dig you a poop hole . I will tell you to go poo there without comfort and privacy of a toilet.
Then i want you to tell me a hole to poo in is just a hole to poo in.

**lord_blackfang**

I am of the firm belief that anyone who bids on an auction without reading it deserves what he gets.

Brand new Ork Warboss, 90 Brand new Ork Boyz, and 10 Brand new Ork Boys with Big Shootas.

You will receive everything in the second picture, note the first picture is for display purposes only, the models you will receive are unbuilt and unpainted, coming from the AOBR boxed sets.

You'd have to be pretty thick to miss all that. It's not like it's hidden after the shipping info like in the Rhino auction.

EDIT: Or, to use Luna's analogy... if you don't look where you're going, don't blame the guy who dug the poop hole you just stepped in.

**LunaHound**

Main problem is NOT reading fine print for this ork thing.

Its for people that would be misguided into thinking the Green Horde uses AOBR ork boys.

Tell that to new players that had no ideas there is 2 types of ork boys snap fit / kit and wanted to save $60% off.

Its scam no matter how you want to put it blackfang, and thats wrong imo.

Just read JHDD's 1 sentence genius reply

and view over JO's message with him.

You'll see he is a scammer that have no intention of changing his ways.
And chooses to hide in the shade.