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Zip Napalm wrote:I think if this would have been me as buyer and the seller told me I should have read the whole thing. I would have felt really stupid for not paying attention.

Not paying attention to what?

He says that it's a complete kit. The buyer can't be expected to know what's on individual sprues. If they bid on something that is listed as a complete kit, they have every right to expect to receive a complete kit.

Again, not saying he's necessarily being deliberately misleading. But it is misleading, and needs to be reworded if he wants to avoid more negative feedback.

Zip Napalm wrote:Read the fine print and buyer beware.

Small businesses that run on that philosophy generally don't last very long.

insaniak wrote:

Zip Napalm wrote:Read the fine print and buyer beware.

Small businesses that run on that philosophy generally don't last very long.

True. Unfortunately, there's always someone willing to take their place.

Yeah, but I think it's legitimate to leave negative feedback asking
for clarity in laying out a description.

insaniak wrote:

Zip Napalm wrote:I think if this would have been me as buyer and the seller told me I should have read the whole thing. I would have felt really stupid for not paying attention.

Not paying attention to what?

He says that it's a complete kit. The buyer can't be expected to know what's on individual sprues. If they bid on something that is listed as a complete kit, they have every right to expect to receive a complete kit.

Again, not saying he's necessarily being deliberately misleading. But it is misleading, and needs to be reworded if he wants to avoid more negative feedback.

Not paying attention to the last line where it's stated your not getting the accessory sprue. I usually read through a whole seller's description looking for the words "factory sealed" before I even think about hitting the "buy now" button. Then I know I have some semblance of recourse.

Zip Napalm wrote:Not paying attention to the last line where it's stated your not getting the accessory sprue.

Which means exactly what to someone not familiar with what's on that sprue?

If you're buying your first rhino, which is going to mean more to you: The statement that the accessory sprue is not included, or the statement that the auction includes a complete kit?

Would it not seem reasonable to assume that the 'accessory' sprue contains 'accessories' rather than parts that are required to assemble the tank? Particularly when the auction specifically states that it includes a complete rhino?

This is the reason that I specifically state in my own rhino listings that the included sprues contain the parts to assemble only the basic chassis, and don't include hatches, weapons or accessories.

If im buying something is complete, i expect it to contains the same items as if i bought it freshly off GW shop. ( minus the shrink wraps or box i guess )

To make matter more confusing, the seller adds in info on Rhino variants , and finally to say not include the accessory sprue , its almost like saying the sprue was NEVER part of the rhinon kit.

If he isnt doing it on purpose, then wow, but if he is, then i still say he is pretty smart at wording the sales.

It never says complete kit, it says complete Rhino, which it is technically.

This happens in advertising daily, yet people say nothing, why is this guy so evil?

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:It never says complete kit, it says complete Rhino, which it is technically.

This happens in advertising daily, yet people say nothing, why is this guy so evil?

I'm not sure if you're simply not understanding what we're saying, or if you're being intentionally obtuse.

The item description is misleading. It simply is! He may not have done it intentionally, but it is going to confuse people that assume "complete Rhino" = "Complete kit," which is a semantic difference.

Not how I'm not saying he's doing anything illegal, or going to hell, or is worse than Pol Pot. All we're saying is that he's doing something that looks deliberately misleading, and that's a business practice that turns me and a lot of other people off. It's also doing business in bad faith: hoping people are stupid or not paying attention is the sort of behavior that should lead to a negative feedback.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:It never says complete kit, it says complete Rhino, which it is technically.

This happens in advertising daily, yet people say nothing, why is this guy so evil?

Just didnt think a simple auction would result in such technicality just to earn some extra dollar.

LunaHound wrote:

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:It never says complete kit, it says complete Rhino, which it is technically.

This happens in advertising daily, yet people say nothing, why is this guy so evil?

alright alright you win mr lawyer. Just didnt think a simple auction would result in such technicality
just to earn some extra dollar.

Actually, I think contract law would say that "Complete Rhino" is a term that would be interpreted as, you know, complete. Unless the term is defined otherwise, complete Rhino means what everybody thinks it does. Now, that doesn't change the fact that the page did say explicitly that the auction doesn't include the sprue, but absolutely nobody is going to read "Complete Rhino" as anything other than a full kit.

Polonius wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:It never says complete kit, it says complete Rhino, which it is technically.

This happens in advertising daily, yet people say nothing, why is this guy so evil?

alright alright you win mr lawyer. Just didnt think a simple auction would result in such technicality
just to earn some extra dollar.

Actually, I think contract law would say that "Complete Rhino" is a term that would be interpreted as, you know, complete. Unless the term is defined otherwise, complete Rhino means what everybody thinks it does. Now, that doesn't change the fact that the page did say explicitly that the auction doesn't include the sprue, but absolutely nobody is going to read "Complete Rhino" as anything other than a full kit.

Its just shaddy buisness to list something as complete when on the same paragraph he also states its missing parts.
Cant think w/e to call it . But certainly i'll be very careful dealing with opened box sales .

What worries me are the type of other sellers that might be taking advantage of things like this, and getting away with it.

LunaHound wrote:

Polonius wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:It never says complete kit, it says complete Rhino, which it is technically.

This happens in advertising daily, yet people say nothing, why is this guy so evil?

alright alright you win mr lawyer. Just didnt think a simple auction would result in such technicality
just to earn some extra dollar.

Actually, I think contract law would say that "Complete Rhino" is a term that would be interpreted as, you know, complete. Unless the term is defined otherwise, complete Rhino means what everybody thinks it does. Now, that doesn't change the fact that the page did say explicitly that the auction doesn't include the sprue, but absolutely nobody is going to read "Complete Rhino" as anything other than a full kit.

Its just shaddy buisness to list something as complete when on the same paragraph he also states its missing parts.
Cant think w/e to call it . But certainly i'll be very careful dealing with opened box sales .

What worries me are the type of other sellers that might be taking advantage of things like this, and getting away with it.

but its not a complete kit, a complete kit would have everything you needed to field the rhino even without the extra bits.

codex rhino has a stormbolter. the kit doesn't have one. but technically you don't need the belly of the tank or the rhino over hang just glue the two sides togethor and put the doors on it. its a GW based conversion with everything you need to play.

or just set the back door with the side doors glued flat on eather side of it and call it a day.

He's deliberately misleading.

He shows a picture says it's "complete".

If I still bought things on eBay, I'd SNAD him for the full amount, because it's *NOT* complete, so it is Significantly Not As Described.

JohnHwangDD wrote:He's deliberately misleading.

He shows a picture says it's "complete".

If I still bought things on eBay, I'd SNAD him for the full amount, because it's *NOT* complete, so it is Significantly Not As Described.

because negative feedback when your $30 in the hole is not worth anything. i didn't know you could do that i'll keep that in mind.

Zip Napalm wrote:I think if this would have been me as buyer and the seller told me I should have read the whole thing. I would have felt really stupid for not paying attention.

Read the fine print and buyer beware.

I didn't know the hatches and bolters come on the "accessory sprue" because I've never build one of the new rhinos. So that sprue is actually essential to building a "complete kit". Seems misleading to me as the listing mentions nothing of the sort. If the sprue simply prevents you from putting a dozer-blade on like the Leman Russ kit, that's not so bad, but to remove the parts from the kit allowing you to put hatches on and *complete* the kit is cheeky, especially when he says in no uncertain terms that the kit is "Complete".

No hatches =not complete IMO

Cupola and cupola hatches are on the accessory sprue.
Rhino hatches (main top, side and rear) are all on the main rhino sprues.

Caveat Emptor should be flEaBay's motto.

As an aside. I have purchased a "complete" rhino, unassembled and NIB, it was not a complete (it was missing the turret mounting plate and HK launcher, and the accessories were ziploc'd) RHINO kit, but since the the turret plate isn't used on a Rhino and you don't have to give it a HK, I don't believe he was misleading in his ad. Besides, at 15% under retail (including shipping) I wasn't complaining.

I don't consider what he did wrong. It is the buyer's responsibility to check details at an auction of any kind - ebay included.

Deliberately misleading is telling a blind person "it's safe to cross the street" when cars are zipping by. Deliberately misleading is not saying "The model is complete with these parts, and for clarification - this piece is not included in my definition of complete." Even if the first half and second half are separated by other crap, crap that displays how truly vapid ebay sellers can be, the description defines the sellers perspective - no one else's.

I do enjoy "I don't combine shipping on big stuff, because big stuff = expensive to ship." God forbid the $1000000 you charge to send one figure parcel post be used for shipping.

chromedog wrote:Cupola and cupola hatches are on the accessory sprue.
Rhino hatches (main top, side and rear) are all on the main rhino sprues.

Caveat Emptor should be flEaBay's motto.

I'm going to point out that I mentioned the cupola in the first page of this thread. Why is this important? How can we expect someone to read a two page thread if we can't expect someone to read a four line "paragraph"?

chromedog wrote:Caveat Emptor should be flEaBay's motto.

While I agree, eBay also has almost no protection for sellers, a fact that's making it untenable for a lot of people to sell their wares there anymore. It's essentially a giant badly run flea market where both sides are screwed by the other.

LunaHound wrote:

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:

Lunahound wrote:
no im not really mad as im not the buyer . but to sneak a line like that after he made the item descrption and sneaking it into
the S&H section is pretty amusing. IMO atleast, if he wasnt trying to hide that line , he could easily have stated behind the ( This is a complete Rhino Kit with missing accessory sprue )
instead of what you see.

But of course, legally hes at 0 fault , just the ethic is shady.

Yeah I didn't mean you're mad...but he included the wording in the description paragraph...not the shipping and handling section (which is usually at the bottom of all listings btw), not sure where you got that.

this is what i meant :



The typical description paragraph.
Pink = Item details
Blue = Seller info
Green = Item S&H details

Almost every ebay sales is garaunteed to follow similar paragraphs like this.
and its so weird he stuck the last line ( back in pink ) behind the s&h line right

Well having read it all, it appears that it clearly states therre is no acc sprue included (it even says for clarification purposes).. While it does say complete rhino, it also says no acc. sprue. One must read all the fine print. You've heard the saying Caveat Emptor! right.. The buyer beware... In this case, just a bit of simple attention to detail on both parts would have easily fixed this.

I see nothing wrong with the seller, nor his auction.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:It never says complete kit, it says complete Rhino, which it is technically.

Technically it's NOT a complete Rhino, as it's missing it's copulas. Hell, BWB sells the exact same thing for $14, but his says "This kit requires a stormbolter bit and a round crew hatch..."

I would say that if they're required, it is NOT complete and therefore the description is wrong.

Zip Napalm wrote:I think if this would have been me as buyer and the seller told me I should have read the whole thing. I would have felt really stupid for not paying attention.

Read the fine print and buyer beware.

couldnt have said it better and if all else fails, ask...

two_heads_talking wrote:Well having read it all, it appears that it clearly states therre is no acc sprue included (it even says for clarification purposes).. While it does say complete rhino, it also says no acc. sprue. One must read all the fine print. You've heard the saying Caveat Emptor! right.. The buyer beware... In this case, just a bit of simple attention to detail on both parts would have easily fixed this.

I see nothing wrong with the seller, nor his auction.

It does bury this last piece of vital information at the end after the usual blah about posting nicely and thankyou for looking etc. I missed it the first time I looked. It should have been written alongside the information detailing the contents of the kit, the parts describing the sprues in the kit and where he claims it's "complete".

If the seller isn't being disingenuous and trying to play down the fact that the kit isn't nearly as 'complete' as he claims then he needs to re write his auctions. They are misleading, deliberately or not. He comes across as being a bit crafty in the way the auction has been worded, he should be up front about the contents of the kit, not tell you what you're getting and then spacing out his description with some waffle before adding a note to mention that there's stuff you're not getting.

JohnHwangDD wrote:He's deliberately misleading.

He shows a picture says it's "complete".

If I still bought things on eBay, I'd SNAD him for the full amount, because it's *NOT* complete, so it is Significantly Not As Described.

Indeed. Now, it may have been a while since I last constructed a Rhino, but I do believe the Cupola and Storm Bolter (both parts *necessary* to field a WYSIWYG, and therefore complete, Rhino) are both on the 'accessory' sprue, no?

Ergo, selling the sprues necessary for the Hull and Tracks, without said Cuploa and Storm Bolter, does not, cannot, and will not contitute selling a complete Rhino...surely?

I say this guy is an arse.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:

Polonius wrote:@ Joyous: I should have been clearer in my remark about professionalism. I've dealt with pros, but I tend to buy the real used lots that individuals sell.

Right or wrong, it's really hard to argue that the guy wasn't trying to be misleading. Did he include what he said? Of course. Was he trying to trick people? I think it's pretty clear that he was.

I don't think at all he is trying to mislead people. If you can't be bothered to read a full listing, why are shopping on ebay, let alone be allowed to have a credit card. (this is not directed to you Polonius, just morons who don't read and then bitch when their stupidity comes back to bite them in the ass.

Sounds like you are the guy selling the product the way you are defending him.

If he was clear about the state of the kit, the seller would have said so at or near the beginning of the description.
Ya know, somewhere near where it says that the auction is a complete kit?

Sliding this little disclaimer at the end is technically legit, but shady as hell doesn't even begin to describe what a arsehole the seller is.

But you are right about reading the listing completely.
The reason being is that there are a lot of spurious characters on ebay trying to be a slick sheister. Like this guy.
Once you hit enter bid button, its a contract.

Hellfury wrote:If he was clear about the state of the kit, the seller would have said so at or near the beginning of the description.
Ya know, somewhere near where it says that the auction is a complete kit?

Sliding this little disclaimer at the end is technically legit, but shady as hell doesn't even begin to describe what a arsehole the seller is.

But you are right about reading the listing completely.
The reason being is that there are a lot of spurious characters on ebay trying to be a slick sheister. Like this guy.
Once you hit enter bid button, its a contract.

Okay, but here is something to remember: What about people who have NEVER built a Rhino (like me) and don't know exactly what is on the "accessory sprue"

Take me for example, when I looked at that auction, I thought "Okay, so I get a complete rhino, but not the useless accessories like maybe different looking front plates or turrets or whatever, but AT LEAST I will get everything needed to use the Rhino based on WYSIWYG" Of course, now knowing that things that ARE necessary for the vehicle to be complete (Complete as in minimum WYSIWYG compliance and/or no holes in the Rhino), then calling it "complete" is not even close. On what definiation of "complete" is a rhino that is not WYSIWYG-compliant and would have open (non-intentionally) holes/gaps in it?

Lastly:

Hellfury wrote:Sounds like you are the guy selling the product the way you are defending him.

I really have to agree with him, you are defending this guy as if it was actually you in disguise...

Yup big conspiracy, its really me.

Sadly I knew it would devolve into this. When people get desperate they throw out random allegations.

If you would read the details, which most of you obviously don't, you will see the seller is from Medina, Ohio (I couldn't even point out Ohio on a US map), I am from the frozen north you Yanks call Canada. Ottawa, Ontario to be exact, and that has been in my Avatar since I joined Dakka.


This is a simple case of buyer beware. If you did a little work, and read the item description you wouldn't have got burned, or won't get burned. If you are a person to read one line and buy something, then you get whatever he sends you.

And I still believe the auction is fine. He states complete RHINO, which it is. None of the vehicle accessory sprue pieces need to go on the rhino. He also explicitly states there is NO Vehicle accessory sprue.

If you don't know what sprues come in the kit, wouldn't it make a little sense to ask a buddy what the Accessory sprue is before you order then?

don't lie joyous... we all know that ohio is probably the location of the sweat shop you use to setup all of your fraudulent and shady ebay scams from.

If it isn't you (and no this isn't an allegation, it is just deductive reasoning) then why would you say something like this:

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:I have seen his auctions before, never seemed bad to me, the description he gives lets you know you need a vehicle accessory sprue to finish the kit, but otherwise the the tank is complete.

I'm not sure If I read about this guy on Warseer, or here on Dakka, but he has history, and seem to be pretty decent.

How can you know of his history, and that history 'to be pretty decent' when you cant even see the sellers name?

Don't take it the wrong way or get overly defensive, I am just genuinely curious how you can know this information about a seller whose name isn't disclosed if it isn't you.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:If you would read the details, which most of you obviously don't, you will see the seller is from Medina, Ohio (I couldn't even point out Ohio on a US map), I am from the frozen north you Yanks call Canada. Ottawa, Ontario to be exact, and that has been in my Avatar since I joined Dakka.

Not saying you are lying mate, but that little United States flag next your username doesn't help that defense.

In your defense, those flags aren't always correct (that and Ottowa is close enough to the states for the IP to read from the U.S.), but to the casual observer, it is one thing that can be used to pick apart such a defense as you have given.

Joyous...a complete Rhino, i.e. one that is WYSIWYG legal, and shows all it's basic gear on the model, requires the Turret Hatch and Storm Bolter, both of which come from the Space Marine Tank Accessory Sprue.

Ergo, selling a Rhino Hull and Track Assembly sans these pieces, is NOT selling a complete Rhino by any stretch of the imagination. The picture he uses has the Hatch and Storm Bolter in clear view. He does not supply. Thus, the Seller has used this picture to intimate what comprises a complete Rhino, and the Auction does NOT match the picture, as it simply is not for a complete Rhino.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Joyous...a complete Rhino, i.e. one that is WYSIWYG legal, and shows all it's basic gear on the model, requires the Turret Hatch and Storm Bolter, both of which come from the Space Marine Tank Accessory Sprue.

Ergo, selling a Rhino Hull and Track Assembly sans these pieces, is NOT selling a complete Rhino by any stretch of the imagination. The picture he uses has the Hatch and Storm Bolter in clear view. He does not supply. Thus, the Seller has used this picture to intimate what comprises a complete Rhino, and the Auction does NOT match the picture, as it simply is not for a complete Rhino.

Quoted for truth.

SNAD alert.