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You're arguing with a guy who says he'd be okay buying a new car without doors because he can get the local greasemonkey to "bang some out of sheet metal" for him.

Accept his [radical] point of view, and move on.

See, this guy gets me


EDIT: I'm only agreeing with his wording so this will hopefully end soon enough, I definately don't think my opinion is radical. And the sheet metal comment was more to prove the point, not saying thats what i'd do. But if the car is a junker anyways...

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:If I was buying a car, but wasn't 100% sure of what was actually included in the I'd talk to a friend/co-worker/family member who does know what every piece involved does and if those pieces are included in your 'sale' description.

Why would you be unsure of what was included if I had assured you that it was a complete car?

More to the point: The very fact that you might need to ask a question about what's included suggests that the listing is not as clear as it should be.

If I find out the car you are selling me is missing its doors (not a valid comparison, I'd have chosen windshield wipers or antenna for closer comparison)

I think part of the problem is simply that you're not seeing that an incomplete rhino is not a complete rhino ..

We're not just talking about antenna here. The accessory sprue includes the front hatches, without which the rhino can not be completely built.

Even ignoring the WYSIWYG aspect, which would really require the storm bolter, searchlight and smoke launchers as well for the tank to be considered complete, the tank is not complete while it has great gaping holes in its roof.

I guess I don't see that then. I wouldn't even stop to worry, I'd just break into the bitz box, or get bits off a friend and add the accessories.

I think the rhino is complete minus the hatches/accessories. It may not look great, but it is a rhino.

And saying something is complete but then adding the caveat that accessories are missing *should* tell everyone to look into it further to see what is missing.

I know when I'm in at Best buy or something and they have used products for sale, and they say missing accessories,t he first thing I do before considering purchase is check what those missing accessories are and if they can then be replaced for an acceptable cost to validate the cheaper cost of the original product.

Zip Napalm wrote:I think if this would have been me as buyer and the seller told me I should have read the whole thing. I would have felt really stupid for not paying attention.

Read the fine print and buyer beware.

I agree, although a complete rhino has a storm bolter.......so his description isn't accurate.

Hmmm, ok I see a storm bolter is standard equipment...

I thought it was purchased as a pintle mount upgrade...turns out I can have two on a rhino...

Ok with that revelation, I will say his description is no longer correct and is misleading.

I could have overlooked cupolas, but didn't know Storm bolter was codex equipment.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:I think the rhino is complete minus the hatches/accessories. It may not look great, but it is a rhino.

But it's not a complete rhino. Which is the entire point.

And saying something is complete but then adding the caveat that accessories are missing *should* tell everyone to look into it further to see what is missing.

It should. But again, that makes the listing unclear... which makes it potentially misleading to anyone who doesn't know enough to ask the question. Specifically, as mentioned before, if someone is unaware that the hatches are on the accessory sprue, they would have no reason to think they need to ask if they are included... the tank is listed as complete, and so they should be able to assume that it is complete.


Again, not necessarily deliberately misleading, but misleading none the less.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:I could have overlooked cupolas, but didn't know Storm bolter was codex equipment.

Wait... so the weapon missing is a problem, but a couple of parts that are required to actually build the model... and to which the weapon attaches in order to put it on the tank... are irrelevant...?



Takes all sorts, I guess



(Not a personal attack... I just find that point of view to be slightly amusing)

Joyous, you're point is almost solid, but you're simply being obtuse in claiming that a rhino missing components is anywhere near complete. Accessories, by virtually any defintion, are things that enhance or expand the usage of an item, but are not essential to the item working. Accessories might be so common as be virtually essential (I can't really enjoy an ipod without the ear buds), but the basic product is still complete.

the term "accessory sprue" only has meaning to people that are familiar with the kit, and those that don't will assume that, like the ear buds and charger for an iPod, are useful but not required. the key here is that the hatches and more importantly the storm bolter are key parts of the kit. It's certainly "usable" without them, but claim that it is complete is simply false by a reasonable person standard. That said, it is qualified later, but in such a way as to further mislead the buyer.

Interestingly, if you look at the Uniform commercail Code, there are provisions for implied warranty of merchantability and fitness for a specific puprose. Basically, if you seel something, it's assumed it can do what it's meant to do, and is a reasonably decen example of the type.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm#s2-314
http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm#s2-315

The argument here is that the seller is representing the item as a complete Rhino, missing accessories, yet the rhino is not usable for it's intended purpose (playing 40k), as it does not have the required components.

Ok from my most recent point then.

I did consider the rhino a complete and functional kit without the two cupolas, but a missing weapon is a missing 'key' piece (now that I actually read the rhino entry) now.

Now I can equate the sale to someone selling a 'complete' leman russ but missing its battle cannon and calling it an accesory.

And as for your ipod example, if someone sold you an ipod missing accessories, I'd be the first to assume you get no headphones. But if you were forewarned of no accessories, you should have known that or inquired about it. Even if the Ipod is listed a complete Ipod, missing accesories it is still a complete Ipod.


So in closing, I will again reiterate that with my new knowledge of a storm bolter being mandatory, I would consider the auction to be misleading and simply not right!

Fair enough.

I'd initially say the guy's a scammer, using tricks along the lines of one of those paragraphs that misdirect the reader as to what they think they see.
On the other hand, he's got a fairly high positive feedback score over a large number of deals, and this thread is focusing on a negative feedback.
What do the positive feedbacks say about the guy?

You don't get a 400+ rating with 99% positive feedback by "scamming" people. Read the auction, he's telling you what you get.

If yo ureally don't like him, tell GW that he is using their pics to sell his items. They'll insist he takes them down. Using their closet full of ninja-lawyers.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:You don't get a 400+ rating with 99% positive feedback by "scamming" people.

After looking through his listings, I'm even more confident that he's not actually trying to scam people... just needs to take a bit more care with his listings.

He sells a bit of a range of stuff... I note though that he has several negs and neuts over rhino auctions. He's rearranged the listing slightly to put the bit about the accessory sprue up with the list of included sprues, but I suspect he's going to continue to have issues with it until he actually points out which required parts are not included.

He's currently on 99.1%, which by eBay standards is, frankly, rather poor. While a couple of negs here and there are unavoidable (pretty much every seller winds up with a couple sooner or later, deserved or not) if they keep coming for the same issue, that should be a sign that you're doing something wrong (regardless of how 'legally' in the right you may be), and that you need to change whatever it is that's causing the problem.

He may not play or build the models and might not realize that the "accessories sprue" is actually necessary to completely build a Rhino.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:He may not play or build the models and might not realize that the "accessories sprue" is actually necessary to completely build a Rhino.

He deals with these all the time and doesn't know? What's he done with it exactly?

**Update , i just looked through some of the new listed auction, seems like he have taken the complaints in.

i wonder if he is part of dakka community in secret o_o

well good job either way!

LunaHound wrote:

**Update , i just looked through some of the new listed auction, seems like he have taken the complaints in.

i wonder if he is part of dakka community in secret o_o

well good job either way!

if he's not selling GW product as a gamer we can't fault him, i don't expect the girl at the DI to have a codex with her to tell me that there are 12 peices i need to finish a squad of primered goop.

yes it is misleading, but this site is the worlds biggest garage sale. you can't fault someone for doing something they didn't know was wrong.

thats funny though, a single guy on ebay fixed his listing. GW can't even produce a solid FAQ or rule set when their whole game base would follow JJ with a sharp stick saying "fix the rules!, Fix the rules!, did you fix em yet?!"

Ozymandias wrote:

two_heads_talking wrote:
If one is too damn lazy to ask and assumes, well you know what assuming does right?

Makes an Ass out of you and Ming? I think Ming might have something to say about that!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Yes, he might, but he will be eating crow while saying whatever it is he has to say.

Just posting to show my normal location

I assume this is the guy in question.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Warhammer-40k-Army-Da-Green-Tide-101-Orks-Apocalypse_W0QQitemZ300288564776QQihZ020QQcategoryZ44122QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Check this auction out and tell me those aren't Assault on Black Reach Orks. No where does it say what kit they are from or whatever.

I sell 40k bits and there is never any illusion of what I'm including.

check my sig for my ebay user name.

Um, *what* auction?

Im confused now...

I forgot link.....added now in my post above.

Yes like i said, always on the gray area especially if the buyer isnt familiar.

Why is the green tide he is selling misleading despite he does tell its AoBR orks? lets look at the simple
facts before people wish to defend his actions.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Warhammer-40k-Army-Da-Green-Tide-101-Orks-Apocalypse_W0QQitemZ300288564776QQihZ020QQcategoryZ44122QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



1) Uses Green Tide of Ork Box set / Nob colored picture , and once again throw in pics of AOBR thats too small to really tell the difference
Unless we are familiar with the difference.

2) States that its $100 off the GW Apocalypse Green Tide , 60% off retail. As if implying the green tide deal itself
have same figures as AOBR ones ( which is totally different )

3) Lists the AOBR orks as Apocalypse Green Tide in the title.

Now, lets look at the whole thing from someone new's point of view , or atleast never
seen AOBR , or ork box set close in detail.

Does Green Tide Apocalypse deal exist? Yes it does.
Is the price as cheap as stated ?
** if you dont mind it been the unposeable AOBR ones. aka complete different product
Then i guess you can compare the price that way..


If the buyer knew the green tide were actual Ork Boys / Nobs multi poseable , with accessories and stuff kit , would they spend so much on it
on abunch of AOBR stuff? **ROFL of course not.

So go for it, defend him all you want. But one thing is for certain... The seller is not new at this.

Long story short he threw in $70 worth of AOBR boys and passed off succesfully,as selling it as the $175 product.

the guy is a brilliant artist.

LunaHound wrote:the guy is a brilliant artist.

And he's still more honest than the guy who sells Miracle Floor Wax on the shopping network every night. There's always going to be charlatans and con artists in the world, there's nothing you can do to change that. the best thing you can hope for is never to get fooled yourself. You can't make the world a better place by trying to get rid of his ilk, they're as old as human avarice.

The guy is an effing scammer is what he is.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The guy is an effing scammer is what he is.

oh i know he is, i just didnt want to call him that directly as i seen so many people
in this thread standing up for him.

dont want to make enemies :x

Imagine if Big companies make advertisements the same way he does.

Wouldnt work as smoothly im sure.

Yeah, what amazes me is that some people think he's legit.

Also, not being funny....but what is AOBR?

We know it is short hand for Assault On Black Reach, but not everyone would.....

This guy is such an arse. My biggest problem is using stock pictures which categorically do not show the correct items for sale. If you have one to hand, grab a GW Model box. Have a look at the small print - Contents May Vary From Those Illustrated. This is a standard caveat on most retail packages, and I believe (might be wrong) it stems from laws about advertising and accuracy etc.

He is showing the picture of one thing, and selling another. This is not on.