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I never said I see this thread as a cool contest. Everyone here knows I am not by any means a cool person. I am 100% behind using power fists in tactical squads... not every squad for every army... but I will have my share spread out and usually a couple squads with more than one. I play a lot of games versus vanilla SM and when I see naked squads I already know I have won the game... I can reach them and run right through them.

G

Shep wrote:

Razerous wrote:A flyrant with warp field will laugh at you while it claws your face off after 4 krak missiles have bounced off its 2+ save.

And then that flyrant will continue laughing when it charges your 10 man tactical squad, taking a wound from your power fist and then dealing 4-5 back. It'll laugh even harder when it stops you from "combat tactics"ing away from combat until your own turn, when it finishes off your squad, then moves D6 + 12 + 6 inches into any unit it wants. Good thing you received that charge by the tac marines. Try hiding in a rhino next time. It's better than trading a scoring unit for one or two wounds on a flyrant.

That was not a good example to try and advocate power fists.

See, I do apologise for going off-topic.. but it kinda shows how much you decide to read a post before you quote it.

Obviously lots and lots.

Ive underlined what you may want to re-read.

I was replying to Lunahound and basically trying to put across the fact that there are more than just a few unit types. A wraithlord w/ two ranged weapons can charge into combat with a tactical squad and stay there, both sides continuing to slog it out (unles ofcourse its all vanillia'y and they have combat tactics and win @ a D6 I roll-off) 100-140ish pts of heavy support tieing up 170-220ish points of scoring troops. A pfist would prevent this/deter it.

Likewise AP2 is good against MC's which is why the missile launcher is a double egded sword.. as a flyrant would not fear krak missile.

Plamsa fire? Rapid fire. 12"

Flyrant 12"+d6"+6" (13 move to 24 charge) beats rapid fire lots and lots. That gaunt wall or ruin it will invariably be hiding in means hedging your bets on such short ranged AP2 firepower is just risky.

Razerous wrote:
Likewise AP2 is good against MC's which is why the missile launcher is a double egded sword.. as a flyrant would not fear krak missile.

Plamsa fire? Rapid fire. 12"

Flyrant 12"+d6"+6" (13 move to 24 charge) beats rapid fire lots and lots. That gaunt wall or ruin it will invariably be hiding in means hedging your bets on such short ranged AP2 firepower is just risky.

Firstly, let me start by apologizing, I thought your comment about krak missiles was directed at me as I said I like to take them due to being cheap and flexible (which they are).
The point I'm trying to make, is that for my play style, there are more effective means for me to use those 25 pts. For example, I love razorbacks, don't ask me why, but I do.. if I can scrounge another 10 pts I can plunk a TL lascannon on top of one of my vanilla ones. If I had 3 tactical squads with powerfists I could drop all the powerfists and have a razorback with a TL lascannon for the same price. And it's got a 48" range and an 8/9 chance of hitting and wounds almost ANYTHING on a 2+ in addition to being a threat to every vehicle up to AV 14. Quite handy if you ask me.. too bad they pop just as easy as a rhino, which is why I play aggressively with my Terminators in an effort to draw my opponent's fire.
Yeah, a flyrant is terrible, but they're also typically expensive and if you've got a mess of guants (which were previously unmentioned) wouldn't the combat squad from my second unmentioned tactical squad be able to clear away a massive group of them with a flamer and combi-flamer while being damned cheap on points? Also wouldn't the two missile launchers that would be wasting shots with krak missiles on your tyrant rack up some serious kills with frag missiles into your guants?
And wouldn't that open a hole in that unit for me to fire my AP2 shots through? And even so, a 4+ cover save is much easier to wound an MC with than a 2+ armor save or there's also the other side of the spectrum with me just pouring as many boltguns as I can into his hide as he approaches. And if he's hiding in a ruin, what's to stop my combat squad from shifting into position to force him out of cover if he desires to gobble them? My heavy weapons are parked way in the back and my sergeant's combat squad is running interference with all the move and shoot weapons. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I wasn't aware that flyrants could fleet, meaning you could only fly 12" and run d6 and have to wait until next turn to assault.. not that you'd need to if I were within rapid fire range, but at that point I'm throwing the combat squad away in an effort to tie the flyrant up until either my next shooting phase where I can hopefully concentrate my fire on it or get my terminators into combat with it.
Also, the point Shep made was also very valid. A flyrant should ALWAYS eat a tactical squad in close combat.. it's an expensive HQ with flying and it's a MC.. if it couldn't do that then it'd be the laughing stock of every gaming group. All that powerfist is doing is taking the fight from being a massacred tactical squad to a massacred tactical squad and potentially wounded flyrant.

Obviously you are going to shoot at the flyrant before it charges. If the 25 points for a power fist goes towards more guns to kill the flyrant and you can drop it before the charge then that was definitely 25 points well spent.

I used to love razorbacks back in 3rd edition and would typically run three to four six man tactical squads with las/plas and a power fist. That was the core of the army and they could shoot like crazy. In 4th edition I would sometimes run a shooty BA army with five 6 man las/plas squads (naked vets for the DC) all with heavy bolter razorbacks. I also had two Baal predators with heavy bolter sponsons. That was one sick army! People started asking me to play a BA drop pod army instead... hee.

I think the full tactical squad with a razorback is a great choice in 5th edition. I don't use razorbacks now but if you take enough of them and split your tactical squads into combat squads you are saturating the table with a lot of units. Personally I am a big fan of the rhino now with a meltagun inside... it's a great tank hunting unit and I prefer not to split my troops into combat squads. That's just me though and I can see why the razorback is a solid choice if you take enough of them.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Obviously you are going to shoot at the flyrant before it charges. If the 25 points for a power fist goes towards more guns to kill the flyrant and you can drop it before the charge then that was definitely 25 points well spent.

I used to love razorbacks back in 3rd edition and would typically run three to four six man tactical squads with las/plas and a power fist. That was the core of the army and they could shoot like crazy. In 4th edition I would sometimes run a shooty BA army with five 6 man las/plas squads (naked vets for the DC) all with heavy bolter razorbacks. I also had two Baal predators with heavy bolter sponsons. That was one sick army! People started asking me to play a BA drop pod army instead... hee.

I think the full tactical squad with a razorback is a great choice in 5th edition. I don't use razorbacks now but if you take enough of them and split your tactical squads into combat squads you are saturating the table with a lot of units. Personally I am a big fan of the rhino now with a meltagun inside... it's a great tank hunting unit and I prefer not to split my troops into combat squads. That's just me though and I can see why the razorback is a solid choice if you take enough of them.

G

Heh, I have 2 Baal Predators myself, I spent the extra points for the pintle mounted storm bolters though. Those things could devastate infantry. I do agree with you though that it's nice to effectively have 3 units come from 1 FOC slot, with each one still being a legitimate threat to the enemy. It really musses up people's target priority choices. I think that combat squads are an underused/underrated tactic as it allows you to still keep small units, each tailored for a specific job and each portion being cheap enough that you won't cry if/when they're eliminated. The downside though, is that each element is fairly frail so it takes some finesse to get the job done well.. And what this has to do with powerfists I don't know.. consider my line of thought derailed..

Razerous wrote:
Plamsa fire? Rapid fire. 12"

Flyrant 12"+d6"+6" (13 move to 24 charge) beats rapid fire lots and lots. That gaunt wall or ruin it will invariably be hiding in means hedging your bets on such short ranged AP2 firepower is just risky.

There is a lot of generalship you are either discounting or unaware of.

In my example, I suggested using a rhino. My rapid fire weapons would get to double tap your flyrant because you won't have access to my tacticals for your charge. Yes you will be close enough to them, but you see, they aren't on the table. It's the same function as the ork battlewagon. Battlewagons are vulnerable to assault, but then the assaulting unit has to face down a fresh unit that falls out of the beaten vehicle and is free to do whatever they will to your unit with no cover save.

If I deploy inside my rhino and fire heavy weapons and a plasma gun out of a firepoint, or deploy in a razorback and fire its heavy weapon, then your option is to charge and kill the vehicle. That leaves you stopped, right next to my army, well within special weapon range. you won't have cover or a screen, and I can maneuver the correct amount of firepower over to you (I saw you coming) and shoot you to death. I used a strategy to kill your MC that didn't require a power fist.

But in reality, I have even better tools at my disposal to remove MCs, I play with assault terminators, I REALLY don't need fists.

I'm a necron player and i regularily face space marines and i would say powerfists are my bane. wounding most things on a 2+ is well worth the points and initiative drop. unless faceing a hoard army (ig, tyranids, orks) they will always pay for their points back, and against necrons in peticular will devastate the oposition. It all depends on who you are facing.

What if instead of that powerfist your opponent took 2 plasma guns and a melta gun.

Which would you rather face.

Close combat is the best way to phase out Necrons.

G

Overgeneralized statements without support or reasoning are the best ones to make.

T

Green Blow Fly wrote:Close combat is the best way to phase out Necrons.

G

Agreed..I still wouldn't depend on tactical squad powerfist to do the work personally.. I haven't played too many skilled necron players in my area (they're not that popular around here), but the ones I have played used destroyers and heavy destroyers to provide long range firepower and additional anti-tank power. Against these opponents I've found I can easily score a win if I focus my firepower on these then, once they're eliminated I sit back and pound his warriors with heavy weapons to force them to A) move out of cover if they want to shoot back or B) move out of LOS to prevent casualties. At which point A) they lose their cover saves, making AP3 or better weaponry much more effective or B) I can more easily move my CC elements up as I have less worries of incoming fire.

"Ug, me use powerfist to SMASH puny army, HURRR!"

...there's your reasoning.

LOL

G

targetawg wrote:Overgeneralized statements without support or reasoning are the best ones to make.

T

When you shoot at Necrons they always get their WBB assuming an orb is in range. When you beat them in close combat you can destroy an entire unit via massacre. Good Necron players fear close combat a lot more than shooting.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:

targetawg wrote:Overgeneralized statements without support or reasoning are the best ones to make.

T

When you shoot at Necrons they always get their WBB assuming an orb is in range. When you beat them in close combat you can destroy an entire unit via massacre. Good Necron players fear close combat a lot more than shooting.

G

There we go, now that we have some reasoning, here's my only issue with the logic:

A powerfist on a tactical squad isn't the best means to take out that unit.

Say your 10 marines assault those Necron warriors, 18 attacks, 9 hit, 4.5 wound, 1.5 Dead Necrons
Fist hits, 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, 1.25 dead Necrons

You've now killed 2-3 Necron warriors. Attacks back from the 8.5 alive necrons before the best fist strikes, 4.25 hit, 2.25 wound, roughly 1 dead space marine

You've won combat by 2. And thats if he only has 10 warriors (pretty uncommon) and if you have a full 10 marines when it comes time to assault (also pretty uncommon).

He's testing on, at best for you, Ld 8. If he runs, you'll massacre him, but since he likely won't run, he'll then just portal out using his monolith or a veil, leaving you standing there to be rapid fired.

Now, that isn't to say I disagree with using combat versus necrons, it is a great tactic, but you need to ensure that whatever hits them, either wipes them, or kills enough that they're testing on a very low leadership (Winning combat b 5 ish ideally) so that them running is much more of a sure thing. A tactical squad just isn't the thing to do that with.

I'll also point out in the above example, a power sword would produce identical results to the fist, for 10 less points. (Power sword and power fist are identical versus t4, one has more attacks, one wounds easier).

The best way to assault Necrons is the multi-charge tying up as many units possible with as many of your units... otherwise Necrons veil out and teleport through the Monoliths. Most armies cannot outshoot Necrons, granted there are some and I have done it.

Now, that isn't to say I disagree with using combat versus necrons, it is a great tactic, but you need to ensure that whatever hits them, either wipes them, or kills enough that they're testing on a very low leadership (Winning combat b 5 ish ideally) so that them running is much more of a sure thing. A tactical squad just isn't the thing to do that with.

The power fist greatly increases the odds in your favor.

G

Deadshane1 wrote:

adielubbe wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:As far as vehicles, Krak grenades do just fine considering rear armour and 10 attacks (especially considering that they're free!). If armour 14 is your problem (land raiders) powerfists arent going to help you that much, but a melta bomb on the sergeant might. I keep hearing people say how good fists are in vehicular close combat. I think the better weapons/abilities are krak/melta and combat tactics against dreads....but thats just me.

Remember: All greandes usually hit on 6's, so 1 sarg with a melta is IMHO not worth it ae...

P-fists hit on 6's too against vehicles then...

What are you talking about? The absolute worst to hit roll with a PF against a walker will always be 5. PF's use the chart, Grenades and bombs require 6's to hit walkers, AND you only ever get one attack per model with a grenade vs. 2 or more with the PF.


EDIT: Just realised that you weren't talking about walkers

Green Blow Fly wrote:The best way to assault Necrons is the multi-charge tying up as many units possible with as many of your units... otherwise Necrons veil out and teleport through the Monoliths. Most armies cannot outshoot Necrons, granted there are some and I have done it.

Now, that isn't to say I disagree with using combat versus necrons, it is a great tactic, but you need to ensure that whatever hits them, either wipes them, or kills enough that they're testing on a very low leadership (Winning combat b 5 ish ideally) so that them running is much more of a sure thing. A tactical squad just isn't the thing to do that with.

The power fist greatly increases the odds in your favor.

G

If you read above, the power fist only increases the odds in your favor by 1 necron.

Thats not greatly.

And if you multi-assault with a tactical squad, you flat out won't win combat, You'll tie at best just due to weight of numbers.

if you want to talk about a win button against necrons.. what about vanguard? 1 relic blade, two power fists and jump packs. On the turn they deep strike in, they charge a unit of warriors with 3 strength 6 power weapon attacks and 8 normal attacks at I 4, then 6 strength 8 pf attacks.
Sergeant gets 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, no saves(I think), 1.25 wounds
2 normal guys get 4 hits, 2 wounds, 3+ armor followed by 4+ WBB, .66 wounds
18.0826 surviving warriors get 9.0413 hits, 4.52086 wounds, 3+ armor save, 1.506953 wounds
2 powerfists get 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, no saves, 2.5 wounds
marines: 4.083333 wounds
necrons: 1.506953 wounds
marines win by 2.57638

Not bad given the unit is almost guaranteed the charge free of casualties and only costs the same as a 10 man tactical squad with plasmagun and powerfist in a rhino. Or if you take the drop pod instead, the squad costs 5 pts less than a 10 man tactical squad with powerfist.

Edit: spotted screw up with combat resolution

Vanguard have a lot of issues:

You must buy jump backs in order to heroic intervention, it can't be done from a pod.

If you're going to go the heroic intervention route, you must have a locator beacon there, or also scatter is liable to either kill you, or move you out of your narrow 6 inch charge window.

That squad you just listed is 5 guys, just 5.

It costs 240 points.

You're paying almost 50 points per model for those guys when you average it out, thats the price of a land raider just for 5 guys with T4 and a 3+ save. It's pretty hard to justify that in a list, including that they don't score.

Add to that the fact that you barely won combat by more than the tactical squad we previously mentioned...and it gets even sadder.

targetawg wrote:Vanguard have a lot of issues:

You must buy jump backs in order to heroic intervention, it can't be done from a pod.
If you're going to go the heroic intervention route, you must have a locator beacon there, or also scatter is liable to either kill you, or move you out of your narrow 6 inch charge window.
That squad you just listed is 5 guys, just 5.
It costs 240 points.
You're paying almost 50 points per model for those guys when you average it out, thats the price of a land raider just for 5 guys with T4 and a 3+ save. It's pretty hard to justify that in a list, including that they don't score.
Add to that the fact that you barely won combat by more than the tactical squad we previously mentioned...and it gets even sadder.

Eh, didn't catch the part where they have to have jump packs to pull it off. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but can't they still move once they deep strike or am I remembering something else? If so, they'd have to deep strike within 18". If I'm wrong, then I'd definitely make it a point to include a teleporter homer in one of my tactical squads and use my combat squad with special weapon and sarge to get close and fire at the necrons, so I wouldn't have to worry about that as much. No bother, I wouldn't use vanguard in most cases anyway.
But the point I'm trying to make is that you can send a 10 man tactical squad in a rhino at a unit of necron warriors and face whatever casualties you'll take riding up there and then just barely beating them in combat if they're an understrength squad, for basically the same exact point costs as a kitted out vanguard unit that'll mutilate a 10 man unit of warriors (the numbers I ran were against a 20 man unit). 10 man tactical marine squads with a powerfist and a rhino cost 230 pts, if you find another 20 pts that's a land raider. The point is if you're going to hit Necrons in close combat you need a decisive victory against them to at least make your unit's cost back by running them down and a 10 man tactical squad isn't going to do that with or without a powerfist. Although, I will admit, having the vanguard unit deep strike into a tree and have to roll on the mishap chart and die would suck like a vacuum cleaner.
In targetawg's example you have a full tactical squad vs a half strength necron squad. In mine it's a minimum vanguard squad with some goodies vs a full warrior squad and you still come out about the same in combat resolution than you would if you managed to get a full 10 tactical marines in position.
Against 10 warriors, it would have been a steamroll win for the vanguard instead of the necrons holding roughly 2/3 of the time, then teleporting out of there and letting everyone rapid fire on you and more than likely eliminating that squad, like they would for a tactical squad

Here's what the vanguard unit from above would average against a 10 man squad of necron warriors
Sergeant gets 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, no saves(I think), 1.25 wounds
2 normal guys get 4 hits, 2 wounds, 3+ armor followed by 4+ WBB, .33 wounds
8.0826 surviving warriors get 4.0413 hits, 2.02086 wounds, 3+ armor save, 0.67362 wounds
2 powerfists get 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, no saves, 2.5 wounds
marines: 4.0833 wounds
necrons: .67362wounds
marines win by 3.7471
Necrons take break test at 6-7

Edit: spotted screw up with combat resolution

Vanguard can only deepstrike with jump packs.

Vanquard cannot move or run or fleet the turn they deepstrike if they plan to use their heroic intervention ability, the can only charge, if in range.

You're forgetting to mention that that vanguard squad, although better in this one situation has a few disadvantages to a tactical squad:

1) The tactical squad is 10 less points
2) The tactical squad comes with a transport (rhino) and 5 more guys. For the 10 less points
3) The tactical squad scores
4) They can move around and fire on enemy units all game, they aren't just present for that one combat against the necron warriors
5) The tacticals have 10 wounds and a vehicle, rather than 5 of the same stat line models with no vehicle

Your Vanguard squad beats them against a MEQ opponent by what, 1-2 wounds? In exchange for all of those huge drawbacks above?

And in my example, you have a full strength tactical squad versus a half strength warrior squad, yes.

But what you're forgetting to mention is the more important point, in my example, the 2 units are equal points. 10 Tacticals = 10 Necron warriors. In yours the necrons have double points on the tacticals. Not to mention that I've never once come across a necron player silly enough to use a 20 man squad.

Edit: And as an aside, do you understand necron rules? Part of your post above makes me wonder. WBB rolls don't occur until the following necron turn, its not FNP.

Not going to win a multi-assault against Necrons? I think there must be a communication gap. Anyways since you are an advocate of combat tactics why not fall then charge again to take advantage of the fist? You get multiple attacks with a power fist and always get double the phases to use it compared to shooting. Everyone knows close combat is the king in 5e.

G

targetawg wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:The best way to assault Necrons is the multi-charge tying up as many units possible with as many of your units... otherwise Necrons veil out and teleport through the Monoliths. Most armies cannot outshoot Necrons, granted there are some and I have done it.

Now, that isn't to say I disagree with using combat versus necrons, it is a great tactic, but you need to ensure that whatever hits them, either wipes them, or kills enough that they're testing on a very low leadership (Winning combat b 5 ish ideally) so that them running is much more of a sure thing. A tactical squad just isn't the thing to do that with.

The power fist greatly increases the odds in your favor.

G

If you read above, the power fist only increases the odds in your favor by 1 necron.

Thats not greatly.

And if you multi-assault with a tactical squad, you flat out won't win combat, You'll tie at best just due to weight of numbers.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Not going to win a multi-assault against Necrons? I think there must be a communication gap. Anyways since you are an advocate of combat tactics why not fall then charge again to take advantage of the fist? You get multiple attacks with a power fist and always get double the phases to use it compared to shooting. Everyone knows close combat is the king in 5e.

G

I'm not an advocate of combat tactics. Read the post, I've never even once written the words. Not in this post, not in this forum, not on this site.

Second, you won't win a multi-assault against necrons with a unit of tactical marines. You're BARELY winning a combat against a squad of 10 warriors with your 10 tacticals (winning by 2 currently). Add in another 10 necrons to the fight, and you're now taking another dead marine, leaving you winning combat against the 2 units by 1. And you won't have the option of falling back and recharging. If you remain in combat on his turn, he will leave combat, not you.

They'll be hard pressed to fail that check.

And once again, stop making general "Everyone knows xxxx" comments. They're not true. If anything combat got hurt in 5th with the advent of not being allowed to consolidate into other units, the loss of the powerfist attack, etc. All it gained was easier multi-assaults (which we could easily do in 4th if you positioned correctly), and the counter charge rule so there's no more close combat sniping.

It's almost like you keep saying random things in hopes that no one will correct you. That or to rack up your post count.

And the "G" thing at the end.

We know its your post. It has your name on it. You don't have to sign your name at the bottom.

Hey now, don't be bashing people who sign their name at the bottom of their posts!!

Otherwise, good points.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Okay I see where the communication breakdown has occurred. When I say mutiple assaults what is meant is I advocate charging as many units as you have possible into as many Necron squads as possible. I don't mean that you should charge one tactical squad into multiple Necron units. Necrons can use the veil of darkness and their monoliths to teleport out of drawn/locked combats. The same Necron units that teleported out of combat will then light you in their shooting phase. The best way I know of to prevent this is to multi charge as many Necron units as possible so that if combats are drawn the Necron player cannot remove all their units from close combat via teleportation. If they do teleport out then the Necron units left in close combat are more likely to break in the subsequent Necron turn.

I don't see why you would not advocate using combat tactics in general since you are a proponent of purely shooty tactical squads. You are using the points saved by not taking power fists to shoot more. Maybe I am missing something here and if you can enlighten me it is much appreciated.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Using combat tactics with a tactical squad equipped with a power fist means you are possibly able to get in another charge, double the attacks for the bolter Marines and add another attack for the power fist. There are twice as many assault phases as shooting phases. A sergeant with a power fist has three attacks on the charge and two in subsequent assaults leading from the initial charge. A combi weapon while cheaper than a power fist is a one shot deal and you can no longer master craft it so the odds are inherently in favor of the power fist to gain more attacks. If you could master craft the combi weapon then you are paying more points, which goes against said philosophy of eschewing the use of power fists in your tactical squads.

G

Also if you take a combi plasma in the tactical squad then if you rapid fire you cannot charge and there is the possiblility you will lose the sergeant to overheat.

G

It's becoming increasingly obvious, Green, that you are of the opinion that a tactical squad is simply a 10 wound powerfist with 2 attacks (3 when you're able to MANAGE a charge with troopers with no movement bonuses). Everytime I read one of your posts this is what I get out of it.

That is not an efficient way to deploy 200 pts worth of troops. It doesnt matter how you justify it. Shooting is a more efficient way to deploy tacticals. If you get outmaneuvered and NEED the fist for some reason (and those reasons are RARE as Targetawg has illustrated), well, thats just what happens in battle. It doenst mean your inefficient way of running tacticals is correct, it means you've covered an error in maneuvering with an overpriced and underuseful peice of wargear.

I'm confident that whatever you can do with a powerfist squad, at less points I can have a squad loaded out in melta with combat tactics that does it better and for less points. Short of insta-killing characters, and since Eternal warrior is so rampant nowadays...even that ability is nerfed in the extreme, not that you should be attempting to kill characters in CC with Tactical Squads in the first place.

on the note of PF's;
i would take them, but only on 1/2 my units max.
starts to become a huge point sink after that.


as for vanguard;
same as flash gitz, look good on paper, but will rarely earn thier points, and more likely they will be shot to death or beaten by dedicated CC units.
with those points grab a land raider, or if you dead set on killing necron warriors, invest in 2 vindi's.