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My BA pax nine power fists capable of acheiving S9. Just ask and I will show you anytime.

G

willydstyle wrote:Don't forget: I have to spend 40 points on a fist because the champion's cost is separate, and not already included in the price of the squad.

For loyalists who are already in effect paying for the vet sarge, putting a couple of fists in is not that expensive, and I think still important. Bolt pistols+special weapon+possible combi-weapon+charge w/ fist is a pretty good way to do a lot of damage in one turn, even to tough targets. Those non-fist tactical attacks are still dangerous to a lot of pretty tough targets, quite possibly putting a wound on a monstrous creature before the fist even gets to go.

Its also a great way to stack tons of points on a tactical squad. I cannot speak for the chaos dex as I havent been trying to take it apart since its release. It seems however, in a DEDICATED CC squad like berserkers, or in a chaos marine squad who are well equipped for CC with bolt pistol/ccw, that a 'fist is well in order if you plan on jumpin them into CC.

Tactical vanilla's however are a different story. They are not equipped for CC, and 25pts for a fist are better spent elsewhere considering what marines are MEANT to do. Tacticals are not MEANT to charge into CC as a plan of battle...they just arent that good at it, they're better at shooting. They're ESPECIALLY good at shooting if you give a combi-weapon to a Sergeant. What does its job better? A tactical squad with a Fist trying to fight in HtH? Or (again spending 25 pts) a Tactical squad with a plasma gun, combi-plasma, and a missle launcher shooting at the same target? Possibly within 12". It seems pretty obvious what the more sensible buy is here.

Perhaps a fist is a good choice for one vanilla tactical squad, but x4 with four tactical squads on the board? Seems more like poor judgement.

Green Blow Fly wrote:My BA pax nine power fists capable of acheiving S9. Just ask and I will show you anytime.

G

Oh jesus, who cares?

I think PF are worth it, makes me alittle hesitant before charging my carnifex in sometimes.

I don't see powerfist being useful, you can get 2 MM attack bikes for the price of 4 Powerfists...

LunaHound wrote:
I think PF are worth it, makes me alittle hesitant before charging my carnifex in sometimes.

Whats your carnifex for afraid of? Charging a unit capable of swinging twice at str 8, or being within 12 inches of two plasma guns and a Multi-Melta during their shooting phase? One can potentially kill a fresh carnifex, the other never will, both cost the same points.

Normally I don't throw a powerfist on tac squads. However, if I'm drop poding a tac squad I put either melta bombs or a powerfist on the sarge as there is a chance they might get charged by something big & nasty, or the'll have a better chance to get a penitrating hit on that tank they assault next turn.

However, I've never had more then 1 tac squad in a drop pod.

Deadshane1 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
I think PF are worth it, makes me alittle hesitant before charging my carnifex in sometimes.

Whats your carnifex for afraid of? Charging a unit capable of swinging twice at str 8, or being within 12 inches of two plasma guns and a Multi-Melta during their shooting phase? One can potentially kill a fresh carnifex, the other never will, both cost the same points.

As was said before, and still being said.

Having powerfists DOES NOT TAKE AWAY PLASMA GUNS OR HEAVIES.

You can actually do things like, get charged by a carnifex, wound it twice with your fist, run away, and then kill it with 1 or 2 nearby squads guns on your turn.

Shane keeps ranting like you won't have any plasma guns if you take powerfists. No. Powerfists are just 2-3 extra S8 ignores-armor attacks In Addition to your special guns and big guns.

Yes, you can get one melta bike for the cost of giving 2 tactical squads a total of 4 S8 attacks (6 on charge.)

That one melta bike is an extra kill point, can be killed with one shot, and serves a different purpose.

If you're bought 10 tactical marines, you've already spent points on the bodyguard. Might as well get several extra super attacks that the enemy has to kill all 10 of you before they can stop.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Traskel wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Shane face it you don't know how to play SM and the majority of the posters following this thread are thrashing you.

G

A majority of people in the United States are pretty dumb. That's a pretty poor argument for disproving someone, nice trolling though.

Besides, he's right, I dont know how to play Space Marines, as knowing how to play them in his book must mean wasting 200+ points on frivolous wargear that doenst enhance the squads fighting abilities that they already have. Playing Space Marines is paying the points for 10 guys so that a single one of them can fight. Playing Space Marines is trying to take the Vanilla Codex and make a Close Combat army with them when you could/should be using an army that is TRULY a close combat one if thats your thing. Playing space marines is going to baltimore and getting thrashed in the results concerning your codex.

He's right, I dont know how to play space marines. He knows how to do all the above better then me...along with trolling, and not really contributing to the discussion.

They're 25 points. Exaggerating doesn't prove any points.

If you were playing like WS2 S3 I3 tau w/o grenades then you could be an intellectual by saying "I don't want to spend a single point that'll get me any close-combat ability whatsoever"

You're already paying points for being decent-in-melee every single time you buy a marine. A powerfist is 25points for 2-3 super attacks which are stronger than a power weapon Captain or Chaplain's. You can afford five powerfists (10 attacks, 15 on charge) for the cost of one captain w/ a Fist (3 attacks, 4 on charge.)

Obviously 10-15 attacks S8 ignore armor save attacks at Ws4 are utterly frivolous. The great shane said so.

Marines should inflict 0 wounds every combat and then run away.

Compare 2 powerfists to an attack bike with MM over the course of the game.

>.> my carnifex sort of only have 2 attacks too lol.
with no ws upgrade either...

My chances of dying is pretty high too.

TheBloodGod wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
I think PF are worth it, makes me alittle hesitant before charging my carnifex in sometimes.

Whats your carnifex for afraid of? Charging a unit capable of swinging twice at str 8, or being within 12 inches of two plasma guns and a Multi-Melta during their shooting phase? One can potentially kill a fresh carnifex, the other never will, both cost the same points.

As was said before, and still being said.

Having powerfists DOES NOT TAKE AWAY PLASMA GUNS OR HEAVIES.

You can actually do things like, get charged by a carnifex, wound it twice with your fist, run away, and then kill it with 1 or 2 nearby squads guns on your turn.

Shane keeps ranting like you won't have any plasma guns if you take powerfists. No. Powerfists are just 2-3 extra S8 ignores-armor attacks In Addition to your special guns and big guns.

Yes, you can get one melta bike for the cost of giving 2 tactical squads a total of 4 S8 attacks (6 on charge.)

That one melta bike is an extra kill point, can be killed with one shot, and serves a different purpose.

If you're bought 10 tactical marines, you've already spent points on the bodyguard. Might as well get several extra super attacks that the enemy has to kill all 10 of you before they can stop.

My point is, you can have a tactical squad that is trim on points spent and still be more effective in many situations than a squad that dumps 25 whole points (the most expensive peice of wargear for the squad barring transports) on a peice of wargear that doesnt really do anything for the squads inherrent combat abilities.

Combi-weapons support the squad and what they're already capable and good at doing. Fists dont. Combi-weapons are cheap, fists arent. Power Weapons plug a close combat deficiancy in tactical squads...lightly enhancing them, powerfists do as well, but at a premium price.

When you put a fist on the Sergeant, he becomes the rock star of the squad, his specialty doest have anything to do with what the rest of the squad is designed to do....which is shoot, and be resiliant troops. All of a sudden, 9 other guys have to change their mission in order so he can use this 25pt peice of wargear. Those bolters that you spend all of that time gluing to your models and painting....yea, they become useless, along with the heavy weapon if you plan on charging. If you plan on needing a fist to fight off assaulters, you're going to be left holding the bag anyway because this expensive 2 attacks will not be telling against dedicated assaulters....you loose just like the squad with the powerfist, you just paid 25 more points to do so.

THAT is the point I'm trying to get across here. Saving points and being effective in combat. Not making a sergeant out to be a close combat specialist amongst a group of talented and resolute shooters. Instead, making that sergeant COMPLIMENT his squad and enhance what they already do well. Fists go in a direction that should be left to Assault marines, terminators, or CC characters. Why would you put an expensive 25pt peice of wargear in a unit that is meant to shoot?

1 powerfist sergeant out of 4-6 tactical squads, THAT I can see as a precaution. Fisting out every squad however is frivolous and careless army building in a Vanilla Marine army. Its like fitting a powerfist onto every availiable officer in an Imperial Guard army then adding in a unit of ogryns for good measure....you're spending points to do things that your army isnt meant to do or isnt good at in the first place.

I can explain this along with Shep until our heads explode. Just because we're getting "thrashed" by many other posters doesnt make them right. If you look at the most elaborate contributions to this thread explaining positions and arguing veiwpoints, I think you find that the best arguements so far are given by myself and others that dont beleive in fists 'en masse'. Then you've got GBF posting mess like "My BA's have 9 fists and if you dont beleive its awesome I'll see you on the table."....which doesnt help the original poster make a decision.

I'm talking about smart army building here. There are better places in a Space Marine army for close combat counter assault, and the Space Marine Codex is not a close combat army

TheBloodGod wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Traskel wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Shane face it you don't know how to play SM and the majority of the posters following this thread are thrashing you.

G

A majority of people in the United States are pretty dumb. That's a pretty poor argument for disproving someone, nice trolling though.

Besides, he's right, I dont know how to play Space Marines, as knowing how to play them in his book must mean wasting 200+ points on frivolous wargear that doenst enhance the squads fighting abilities that they already have. Playing Space Marines is paying the points for 10 guys so that a single one of them can fight. Playing Space Marines is trying to take the Vanilla Codex and make a Close Combat army with them when you could/should be using an army that is TRULY a close combat one if thats your thing. Playing space marines is going to baltimore and getting thrashed in the results concerning your codex.

He's right, I dont know how to play space marines. He knows how to do all the above better then me...along with trolling, and not really contributing to the discussion.

They're 25 points. Exaggerating doesn't prove any points.

If you were playing like WS2 S3 I3 tau w/o grenades then you could be an intellectual by saying "I don't want to spend a single point that'll get me any close-combat ability whatsoever"

You're already paying points for being decent-in-melee every single time you buy a marine. A powerfist is 25points for 2-3 super attacks which are stronger than a power weapon Captain or Chaplain's. You can afford five powerfists (10 attacks, 15 on charge) for the cost of one captain w/ a Fist (3 attacks, 4 on charge.)

Obviously 10-15 attacks S8 ignore armor save attacks at Ws4 are utterly frivolous. The great shane said so.

Marines should inflict 0 wounds every combat and then run away.

I fail to see why you guys are getting apparently so angry with me and my stance on powerfists being overexpedatures when purchased multiple times on tac squads.

Some of you need to calm down. This is a tactical discussion, people are going to disagree.

"Just because the Great Shane said so" is what I'd expect from a grade school kid. Not someone intelligent enough to weigh in the pros/cons of powerfists.


...oh, and tacticals arent "decent in melee" they stink at it, thats part of my whole point. An assault marine is "decent" as would be a chaos marine with bp/ccw, or gaunts with many attacks, ork boys are decent at melee, these things are decent. Marines are resiliant, that doenst make them "decent at melee" it makes them RESILIANT.

Deadshane1 wrote:

TheBloodGod wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
I think PF are worth it, makes me alittle hesitant before charging my carnifex in sometimes.

Whats your carnifex for afraid of? Charging a unit capable of swinging twice at str 8, or being within 12 inches of two plasma guns and a Multi-Melta during their shooting phase? One can potentially kill a fresh carnifex, the other never will, both cost the same points.

As was said before, and still being said.

Having powerfists DOES NOT TAKE AWAY PLASMA GUNS OR HEAVIES.

You can actually do things like, get charged by a carnifex, wound it twice with your fist, run away, and then kill it with 1 or 2 nearby squads guns on your turn.

Shane keeps ranting like you won't have any plasma guns if you take powerfists. No. Powerfists are just 2-3 extra S8 ignores-armor attacks In Addition to your special guns and big guns.

Yes, you can get one melta bike for the cost of giving 2 tactical squads a total of 4 S8 attacks (6 on charge.)

That one melta bike is an extra kill point, can be killed with one shot, and serves a different purpose.

If you're bought 10 tactical marines, you've already spent points on the bodyguard. Might as well get several extra super attacks that the enemy has to kill all 10 of you before they can stop.

My point is, you can have a tactical squad that is trim on points spent and still be more effective in many situations than a squad that dumps 25 whole points (the most expensive peice of wargear for the squad barring transports) on a peice of wargear that doesnt really do anything for the squads inherrent combat abilities.

Combi-weapons support the squad and what they're already capable and good at doing. Fists dont. Combi-weapons are cheap, fists arent. Power Weapons plug a close combat deficiancy in tactical squads...lightly enhancing them, powerfists do as well, but at a premium price.

"Doesn't really do anything for the squads inherrent combat abilities"

Man is that wrong. You keep saying that adding 2-3 S8 armor-ignoring attacks "doesn't improve their combat ability"

I'll let you know that the ability to kill 2-3 more nob bikers than they would otherwise is a large increase in combat ability.

A squad doesn't shoot any weaker if the sergeant is carrying a fist. It just is able to kill a few more models when the enemy assaults it, which they would try to, since it is a squad good at shooting.

Combi-weapons are nice, albeit they can only be shot once in the entire game.

Obviously, when you're list building, you have to first focus on the units that are required for your game plan. If your game plan involves 3-6 dreadnaughts and 9 attack bikes, then you might forego buying any fists.

It's also true there are many times that it'd be better to add 16-24 extra powerfist attacks to your troops than to add one ven. dread with a TL Lascannon and TL Autocannon. They are apples and oranges different. And one choice can die in one lucky meltagun shot.

shane you are rigid in your stance on Marines in general. You have stated that the army is not meant to be played as a close combat force. This is why people are slagging you In general. Space Marines can be one of the most well rounded armies. There is no reason why a tactical squad should be solely delegated to the task of shooting. I see no reason why 25 points per tactical squad is going to make or break any Space Marine army in general. A lot of people here simply don't want to play the army the way you advocate it should be played. Are you offering us theory hammer or is your advice based on a lot of experience? Theory often goes up in smoke. There is no reason not to field a balanced army. As I have said I see SM armies geared towards static shooting as an easy win against. They are one dimensional but look good on paper to those who don't know better. 5e is all about mobility and voluntary fallback is not winning games.

G

I'm also inclined to agree with Deadshane here is some respects.

Space Marines are primarily a shooting army especially tacticals squads their main role as i see it is giving support fire and taking objectives (especially in 5th). In 4th ed all my tac squads were 5 man Las/Plas and now the build tends to be 10 marines sarge with PW, melta and missile at 190pts (225 with a rhino) its an effective anti anything unit. But Tacticals are a shooting unit, you just have to give them the mobility to do so, having 3 rhinos with 30 marines jumping out of them is never good for the person on the receiving end of it, they can fight in combat, but in the marine army their are just so many things that are better at it than them

However of course that doesn't mean that powerfists don't have their uses, I run a 10 man assault squad with a fist with Shrike, this gives the unit a large punch and is still cheap and effective.

Maxing out on powerfists isn't always great and i find with the newer space marine book they have to be used sparingly or else you won't be able to build and effective army as your troops cost so much for little added benefit, of course i don't want my tactical squads in combat i want them taking objectives and shooting, but perhaps in Sternguard squad to give them a chance to cause at least one guaranteed wound if they get trapped or in an assault unit running with an IC (lets face it from the IC they can already have a power weapon of some description).

Of course in units like Plague Marines your I3 already so striking last really isnt an issue.

Obviously powerfists have value, and just as obviously building a list around them is a waste of time. As another posters pointed out, compare buying two fists to a single MM attack bike: It's almost dead even!

The bike adds another unit, a fast moving model, and a viable anti-tank threat. It also coughs up another kill point, is fairly fragile, and is only of real use at extreme close range. The fists are good for all the reasons listed above.

Yes, units that are fat with upgrades mean less units on the table, but lean isn't always good. You want to cut fat, but powerfists are muscle. One list with two powerfists compared to one with a MM Attack Bike isn't necessarily better or worse than the other.

And of course powerfists aren't going to turn a tactical squad into an assault capable squad. What it does do is make it far more likely that a tactical squad can finish off an enemy squad in combat. Yes, it's an insurance policy but with transport that squad is going to be where it needs to be, and a powerfist can hurt anything.

What is clear is that unlike 4th, you don't need the fists in large tactical squads. Combat Tactics at least gives you a chance to get away (although the enemy still needs to botch it's sweeping advance) and Krak grenades make SMs much better against most vehicles.

So, like I said earlier, I think that the best builds in the SM codex will most likely eschew powerfists for more beef elsewhere. Any list built around mechanized tactical squads will still find value in them.

Green Blow Fly wrote:shane you are rigid in your stance on Marines in general. You have stated that the army is not meant to be played as a close combat force. This is why people are slagging you In general. Space Marines can be one of the most well rounded armies. There is no reason why a tactical squad should be solely delegated to the task of shooting. I see no reason why 25 points per tactical squad is going to make or break any Space Marine army in general. A lot of people here simply don't want to play the army the way you advocate it should be played. Are you offering us theory hammer or is your advice based on a lot of experience? Theory often goes up in smoke. There is no reason not to field a balanced army. As I have said I see SM armies geared towards static shooting as an easy win against. They are one dimensional but look good on paper to those who don't know better. 5e is all about mobility and voluntary fallback is not winning games.

G

Did I ever say "Static shooting army?" I didnt think so.

I tend to look at marines like people tend to look at eldar. Certain units have different missions, in order for the army to succeed as a whole those units need to be as good as they can be in their designed mission and leave the other missions up to units that are meant to take them on. Are the purposes of particular units in the marine dex as clear cut as they are in the ELDAR dex? Absolutly not! Marines are still Jack of all Trades, but that doenst mean that you cannot look at any particular unit and tell what roles in combat it will be better at. Tacticals are obviously better at shooting than HtH....that tells me that you're better off spending points for the unit to shoot better, and leave the 25pt powerfist to a unit more designed to use it....say an Assault squad that plans on hitting close combat.

Marines are a well rounded army, I dont argue this, but it doenst necessarily mean that you automatically bring powerfists into the battle. What can tacticals beat in close combat? REALLY beat in close combat? Tau, Guardsmen, smaller units of orks? Powerfists dont really help in these scenarios as basic marines can smash these units without str 8. Any units you would NEED a powerfist to take on are better handled by shooting at them, spending the points in firepower, and leaving the close combat to units that its actually useful in....thats why we have Combat Tactics now.

You seemt to think GBF that I dont know anything about marines since for the last several years I've been playing sisters, DH's, and Eldar. I've been playing this game for a long time and in fact have collected several Marine armies in the past as well. I also know what to be afraid of in a marine army as an opponent...so yes, I'm talking from experience. I'm of the opinion that Powerfists are a dubious choice in a tactical squad at best, frivilous expenditure at worst.

Static shooting....I never said marines were a static shooting army.

I know where Shep and DS1 are coming from based on their armies. I'd be curious to see what armies the pro-fist guys are using (other then GBF, no offense, just know what your POV is). In revamping my Salamanders I've come to similar conclusions as Shep, I'd rather rely on 10 terminators for heavy lifting then pour more points into my tacticals. However I have plans for a list that has sternguard instead of all those terminators and in that list fists are tempting.

Any event, curious where other's are coming from in their POV as far as the lists they run.

My position: Power fists aren't worth it.

Reasoning:

You pay 25 points for a model with 2 attacks that should never even be in combat in the first place, as he's got 4-9 1 attack pricey models with him without power weapons. Anything you'll kill in assault with this unit you could just as easily kill by double tapping into it with your bolters (Tau, Sisters of battle, Eldar, etc.). Anything else you're taking the "powerfist in preparation for" will romp you regardless of the powerfist, and this is the only time its even useful, and here's why:

PW -> 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, 1 dead model (Versus T4)
PF -> 2 attacks, 1.2 hit, 1 wound, 1 dead model (Versus T4)

PW -> 3 attacks, 2 hit, 1.33 wounds, 1.33 dead models (Versus T3)
PF -> 2 attacks, 1.2 hit, 1 wound, 1 dead model (Versus T3)

Against T3 models the PW is better for 10 less points, against T4 its identical.

Now the opposing side goes: But against XXXX model the PW falls short. And yes, against t5 + it does perform worse progressively. However, T5 is typically located on dedicated CC units (MC's, Bloodcrushers, Nob bikers, Wraithlords) that you'll likely lose against anyways, when you could just have played better and not eaten a charge against that dedicated unit.

Then others will say "you can't always prevent being charged!" and this is true. However you have to realize you spend ~100 points on fists every game you play them, and run into that situation only a couple times during a tournament. In all of those other games, you're handicapping yourself a 100 points.

As shane said its just not the best way to spend your money.

People got too used to having powerfists as their ace's last edition, and now are loathe to let go of their "this makes my army more forgiving of my bad generalship" buttons. This editon they lose an attack and the marine units they're in are less customizeable to make them decent in CC. This edition, your tactical marines suck in CC. No way round it.

Sure you can take tau, but you could also just as easily bolter tau.
Sure you could charge your enemies marines, but you could also just as easily BOLTER his marines.

10 marines, shooting the two above units:

20 shots, 14 hits, 9 wounds, 4.5 dead tau.
20 shots, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 2.3 dead marines.

10 Marines charging the two above units.
20 attacks, 14 hits, 9 wounds, 4.5 dead tau (NO PF)
18 attacks, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 4 dead tau, plus 2 PF attacks, 1.3 hits, 1 wound, 1 dead Tau (With PF -> .5 more dead tau)
20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 2 dead marines (NO PF)
18 attacks, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 1.5 dead marines, plus 2 PF attacks, 1 hit, 5/6 wounds, .8 dead marines (With PF -> 2.3 dead marines)

Now lets compare that...

IF you shoot those marines, you kill 2.3, assuming you bought ZERO special weapons, if you charge them, you kill an IDENTICAL amount fo 25 more points, and taking attacks back

IF you shoot those Tau, you kill 4.5 Tau, if you CHARGE those tau, you kill 5 tau (0.5 more!), take attacks back, and spent 25 more points.


Its just not worth it. If you actually put in say, 2 plasma and a combi melta to the above example, it'd get even sillier looking to buy the power fist.

No one is saying "marines can't do CC". They're a balanced force, they always have been. But the point is, making your models jacks of all trades is called overupgrading, and its the easiest way to build a bad list. If you want powerfists/CC ability, don't do it with your tacticals, give the points to buying units MEANT for close combat, and use these well enough to protect your tacticals.

targetawg wrote:Mathhammer

There's gotta be a better use of a Friday night...

It's either that or finish writing my abstract due to the symposium by midnight.

And besides, you READ and responding to it on a friday night.

Pshaw i say!

targetawg wrote:My position: Power fists aren't worth it.

Reasoning:

You pay 25 points for a model with 2 attacks that should never even be in combat in the first place, as he's got 4-9 1 attack pricey models with him without power weapons. Anything you'll kill in assault with this unit you could just as easily kill by double tapping into it with your bolters (Tau, Sisters of battle, Eldar, etc.). Anything else you're taking the "powerfist in preparation for" will romp you regardless of the powerfist, and this is the only time its even useful, and here's why:

PW -> 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, 1 dead model (Versus T4)
PF -> 2 attacks, 1.2 hit, 1 wound, 1 dead model (Versus T4)

PW -> 3 attacks, 2 hit, 1.33 wounds, 1.33 dead models (Versus T3)
PF -> 2 attacks, 1.2 hit, 1 wound, 1 dead model (Versus T3)

Against T3 models the PW is better for 10 less points, against T4 its identical.

Now the opposing side goes: But against XXXX model the PW falls short. And yes, against t5 + it does perform worse progressively. However, T5 is typically located on dedicated CC units (MC's, Bloodcrushers, Nob bikers, Wraithlords) that you'll likely lose against anyways, when you could just have played better and not eaten a charge against that dedicated unit.

Then others will say "you can't always prevent being charged!" and this is true. However you have to realize you spend ~100 points on fists every game you play them, and run into that situation only a couple times during a tournament. In all of those other games, you're handicapping yourself a 100 points.

As shane said its just not the best way to spend your money.

People got too used to having powerfists as their ace's last edition, and now are loathe to let go of their "this makes my army more forgiving of my bad generalship" buttons. This editon they lose an attack and the marine units they're in are less customizeable to make them decent in CC. This edition, your tactical marines suck in CC. No way round it.

Sure you can take tau, but you could also just as easily bolter tau.
Sure you could charge your enemies marines, but you could also just as easily BOLTER his marines.

10 marines, shooting the two above units:

20 shots, 14 hits, 9 wounds, 4.5 dead tau.
20 shots, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 2.3 dead marines.

10 Marines charging the two above units.
20 attacks, 14 hits, 9 wounds, 4.5 dead tau (NO PF)
18 attacks, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 4 dead tau, plus 2 PF attacks, 1.3 hits, 1 wound, 1 dead Tau (With PF -> .5 more dead tau)
20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 2 dead marines (NO PF)
18 attacks, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 1.5 dead marines, plus 2 PF attacks, 1 hit, 5/6 wounds, .8 dead marines (With PF -> 2.3 dead marines)

Now lets compare that...

IF you shoot those marines, you kill 2.3, assuming you bought ZERO special weapons, if you charge them, you kill an IDENTICAL amount fo 25 more points, and taking attacks back

IF you shoot those Tau, you kill 4.5 Tau, if you CHARGE those tau, you kill 5 tau (0.5 more!), take attacks back, and spent 25 more points.


Its just not worth it. If you actually put in say, 2 plasma and a combi melta to the above example, it'd get even sillier looking to buy the power fist.

No one is saying "marines can't do CC". They're a balanced force, they always have been. But the point is, making your models jacks of all trades is called overupgrading, and its the easiest way to build a bad list. If you want powerfists/CC ability, don't do it with your tacticals, give the points to buying units MEANT for close combat, and use these well enough to protect your tacticals.

CHA-CHING!

another quality post from the 'NO' camp. This time with mathhammer.

Getting thrashed verbally doenst mean much when you've got math and logic on your side.

Deadshane1, Green Blow Fly and TheBloodDod:

Your posts have been edited or removed due to needless insulting.

Please focus on the discussion at hand or refrain from posting.

yakface wrote:
Deadshane1, Green Blow Fly and TheBloodDod:

Your posts have been edited or removed due to needless insulting.

Please focus on the discussion at hand or refrain from posting.

Thats all I've been trying to do....

Good to see some actual math about it; as stated before the point cost and role is just completely slowed.


I'd rather save some points and get a Razorback, but that is just me.

targetawg wrote:It's either that or finish writing my abstract due to the symposium by midnight.

And besides, you READ and responding to it on a friday night.

Pshaw i say!

My wife's playing the Wii, so this is all I can do since the Wii and 360 are on the same TV and we have no money to go out. Bills suck...

This question comes up so much we need to stickie one of these arguements and then make it mandatory reading to post on the forums.

targetawg wrote:IF you shoot those Tau, you kill 4.5 Tau, if you CHARGE those tau, you kill 5 tau (0.5 more!), take attacks back, and spent 25 more points.

Bad example here. I use power weapons in my tactical squads instead of fists however, I would always choose to charge into Tau rather than rapid fire them. What you fail to mention is that marines will most likely beat Tau in hand to hand, rout them and wipe them out. So really it's more like 14 dead Tau rahter than 4 or 5. And if they don't run then you are locked in combat and can't be shot at in the next Tau turn. This is a huge difference. The only time I'd rapid fire at a Tau squad is if I was within 12" but I ddn't have the movement to assault them. In this situation I would not be looking forward to their return fire. When I'm facing Tau, my tactical squads become assault squads. Closing to rapid fire range and trading fire with the Tau is a not a good idea.

As for my opinion on power fists? They are nice to have but I don't take them in order to save points. I've got 10 Terminators and 10 Assault marines. These guys do the close combat thing while my tac squads are mostly objective holders and shooters. However, I could see the benefit of someone taking power fists for thier tac squads depending on thier play style, the army composition and their most likely opponents.

holden88 wrote:

targetawg wrote:IF you shoot those Tau, you kill 4.5 Tau, if you CHARGE those tau, you kill 5 tau (0.5 more!), take attacks back, and spent 25 more points.

Bad example here. I use power weapons in my tactical squads instead of fists however, I would always choose to charge into Tau rather than rapid fire them. What you fail to mention is that marines will most likely beat Tau in hand to hand, rout them and wipe them out. So really it's more like 14 dead Tau rahter than 4 or 5. And if they don't run then you are locked in combat and can't be shot at in the next Tau turn. This is a huge difference. The only time I'd rapid fire at a Tau squad is if I was within 12" but I ddn't have the movement to assault them. In this situation I would not be looking forward to their return fire. When I'm facing Tau, my tactical squads become assault squads. Closing to rapid fire range and trading fire with the Tau is a not a good idea.

As for my opinion on power fists? They are nice to have but I don't take them in order to save points. I've got 10 Terminators and 10 Assault marines. These guys do the close combat thing while my tac squads are mostly objective holders and shooters. However, I could see the benefit of someone taking power fists for thier tac squads depending on thier play style, the army composition and their most likely opponents.

You missed the point. The example was just done to show that with the powerfist in the squad, your combat results against a tau unit (or a sm unit) really don't change, and that in most cases, you can kill just as many by double tapping. It's not to say tactically that Im suggesting every marine player walk in front of tau (or any enemy with superior firepower) and trade simply trade shots.

In my example (and yours) you could buy that powerfist or not buy it, you'd still get the exact same result against tau as far as what happens when you charge. You either kill 5 and wipe them out due to combat res, or they stick and you don't get shot. The powerfist doesn't affect this (except by 0.5 casualties in combat, in exchange for 25 points).

And keep in mind as I said, that example didn't include the points spent on the powerfist turning into 2 plasma guns and a combi melta either in the shooting phase.

A power fist versus Tau is a bad example. The power fist shines against other units such as walkers and MC to name only a couple.

G