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Powerfists in tactical squads are expensive they make the sarge cost more then a terminator and a terminator gets a better save and an invulnerable. Do people find it worth it to buy a powerfist for a tactical squad or is it better to just leave the close combat to terminators?

Take the fist. It gives you a little more punch and survivability (is that a word?) if assaulted. Plus if a vehicle gets too close, it gives a better chance to destroy it in assaults than an average "Joe".

There are two camps of opinion on this one. Both have valid points to make.

I personally don't think that P-fists are effective in tactical squads as I believe that they are a poor attempt at making a tactical squad more of a HtH fighting unit, which deviates from its obvious mission, which I think is actually shooting. Every squad member is equipped to play a good shooting game assisted by good leadership and combat tactics.

In this vein I think that combi-weapons that mirror the tactical squads special weapon (combi-flamers with special flamers, combi-melta's with meltas) are the smartest choice for equipping the Sergeant. Combi-weapons are cheap, effective, and dont dedicate the other nine marines in the squad to a mission that they are ill-prepared to take part in.

Hand of Dume wrote:Take the fist. It gives you a little more punch and survivability (is that a word?) if assaulted. Plus if a vehicle gets too close, it gives a better chance to destroy it in assaults than an average "Joe".

Fists dont really give you any more "survivability" in close combat. They do nothing to increase your armour save, or save on casualties toward the rest of the squad.

The only thing that 'fists do, is ensure the ability to inflict AT LEAST one or two reliable wounds in close combat against most any opponent. THATS ALL THEY DO. Most of the time, that one or two wounds wont be very telling in terms of "who's making a leadership test after losing combat"...the tactical marines cannot fight dedicated close combat units just because they have a 'fist. Combats will still be no contest against these units....you just pay 25 (or 15 in the case of utilising combi-weapons) more points to get your butt-kicked.

As far as vehicles, Krak grenades do just fine considering rear armour and 10 attacks (especially considering that they're free!). If armour 14 is your problem (land raiders) powerfists arent going to help you that much, but a melta bomb on the sergeant might. I keep hearing people say how good fists are in vehicular close combat. I think the better weapons/abilities are krak/melta and combat tactics against dreads....but thats just me.

I use powerfists, because I am used to fighting a decent amount of Nid Monstrous creatures and Wraithlords on a regular basis, and Krak Grenades are useless in those situations.

i would agree with quixote, against certain enemies its well worth takinng the fist, simply because they can do enough damage to not only kill most things, but might even cause the other player to keep away from them.

In both these cases, Nid monstrous and WL's, your better weapons are combat tactics and shooting. You might do a wound with a powerfist, but those 25 pts vs monstrous creatures would be better spent in say shooting attacks. Against Monstrous Creature tyranids, I'd say two combi-plasmas and a melta gun would be better purchases....and easier wounds against the tyranids as well.

A single powerfist doenst make you any sort of a match in hand to hand combat against Tyranids. Thinking it does is delusional. Tyranid big creatures are what high str shooting weapons are for, assault terminators with hammers/sheilds. Tyranid mostrous creatures wipe the walls with tacticals, its exactly where they would like to be, especially after softening up your army with shooting and then charging the powerfist armed tactical squad with say, a hive tyrant with lash whip. Tyranids laugh at your puny fists...and the fact you think you can fight them in hth.

Combat tactics are risky... you may fall off the table or not fall back enough to regroup.

G

The fact is, there's nothing in the game that a Power Fist can't damage. There are times that your tactical squad will end up in combat with a Dreadnought or Monsterous Creature. A Power Fist gives the squad a fighting chance at winning this combat. A Tac Squad without a Power Fist can never win against an Ironclad Dreadnought or an MC with T8+.

If you fight in an environment where you are guaranteed to never face such opponents or where they aren't used well enough to suprise you occasionally - then there may not be a justification for a Power Fist.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Combat tactics are risky... you may fall off the table or not fall back enough to regroup.

G

If you're PLANNING on using combat tactics, you wont be within 10-12" of your deployment zone when you use it....and even if you dont regroup, you may still be in range to fire melta's or plasma at monstrous creatures.

By the way, if you're fighting tyranids in Hand to hand with a powerfist within 10-12" of the board edge, you've got a good chance of falling off the table yourself...you sure arent winning the close combat.

I've had great success in leading tac squads into close combat, sure I used a PW instead of a PF, but don't discount TAC squads in CC.

Yes, I understand that they will lose against dedicated assault units... which is why you don't charge those ones. However, not ALL units in an opponents army will be CC specialists... probably.

Democratus wrote:The fact is, there's nothing in the game that a Power Fist can't damage. There are times that your tactical squad will end up in combat with a Dreadnought or Monsterous Creature. A Power Fist gives the squad a fighting chance at winning this combat.

The only monstrous creature you have a fighting chance of WINNING a combat against is a Wraithlord (or armour 12 dread), and that's if it whiffs.

Powerfists do NOT give you fighting chances against MC's with any sort of multiple attacks and mobility. Bloodthirsters, Tyrants, DaemonPrinces, or armour 13 dreads, you're not WINNING these combats. You have 2 attacks...generally hitting with one, wounding, then hoping the opponent fails his Invuln or hoping to get over armour 12/13...then running anyway because you have a better chance of wounding him during the shooting phase with multiple str 4 and melta.

A Tac Squad without a Power Fist can never win against an Ironclad Dreadnought or an MC with T8+.

...and rarely does WITH a 'fist. However, a single meltagun shot is quite effective. I'd rather have a combi-melta than a powerfist against an Ironclad any day of the week, especially with another melta in the same squad supporting each others shot. Ironclads laugh at str 8 powerfists, ask anyone who runs multiple dreads in an army.

Shrike78 wrote:I've had great success in leading tac squads into close combat, sure I used a PW instead of a PF, but don't discount TAC squads in CC.

Yes, I understand that they will lose against dedicated assault units... which is why you don't charge those ones. However, not ALL units in an opponents army will be CC specialists... probably.

No, but his cc troops are the ones most likely to be in your face. Your tac squad won't be in his backfield. Sure, there are times that the pf is handy, but the points are better spent elsewhere. It isn't a "bad" choice, it jsut isn't the "best" choice.

Shrike78 wrote:I've had great success in leading tac squads into close combat, sure I used a PW instead of a PF, but don't discount TAC squads in CC.

Yes, I understand that they will lose against dedicated assault units... which is why you don't charge those ones. However, not ALL units in an opponents army will be CC specialists... probably.

PW's I can see. Cheaper, more attacks, wounding things that basic marines can acutally fight against in cc. (not well, but they can fight anyway)

PW's dont ignore the rest of the squad in order to accomplish a mission....makes them a better choice still than a 'fist IMHO.

PWs bounce most of the time.

G

Since they knocked off the +1 attack for 2ccw's if you have a powerfist, you can give your sergeant a bolter (or combi weapon) so he can add his fire to the rest of the squad.

Depends. If you run an army with Terminator units then power fists for the Tacticals should be redundant.
Otherwise, I'd give power fists to at least 2 Tacticals, as they are Dreadnought insurance.

One thing that nobody has mentioned is this: independent characters.

Without a powerfist, many mid-level characters can walk through a tac squad. WITH a powerfist that character really has to think twice about whether, how, and when he wants to charge the squad.

Also, if a character is left out in the open (even with an accompanying unit) after winning a CC, your fist can hit the character in B2B and have a good chance of preventing that character from fighting more of your units.

For Marines I think the power fist is a mixed bag, it really depends on what the squad is being used for. When building an army I always say to myself; is this squad going to be camping an objective in the back ( not much use for that 25 point fist here) or are they gonna get stuck in with the heavy hitters in an attempt for mid field->hostile table edge objectives in which case 75% of the time they will get into combat and that fist can make a difference.

Thats my two thrones on the matter anyways

Without a powerfist, many mid-level characters can walk through a tac squad. WITH a powerfist that character really has to think twice about whether, how, and when he wants to charge the squad.

I could not have said it any better.

G

Combat tactics is great and all, if you have it. DA/BA do not, nor do the SMs lead by Vulkan, Pedro, et al. In those cases you'll want to consider whether the fist makes sense.

There's also some synergy with a fist sgt and some SCs. BA can get FC and rerolls from Corbulo and Dante -- FC makes the fist a better option against AR14 and the rerolls makes up a bit for the loss of an attack. Pedro can get his sgts an extra attack. Making more use of the synergy offered by those SCs makes sense.

I agree, the fist is pure insurance. It makes your opponant think tiwce before charging a tac squad.

If it is a daisy picker squad, then no, give them a L.Cannon and a P.Gun (or any shooting weapons for that matter) and keep them cheap on your objective. If they pod or advance on an objective then toss them the fist for insurance. I have always given my tac squads a fist as a rule of thumb unless they are of the stand and shoot variety.

If you take Pedro Kantor as an HQ then the power fist is really worth the points. The +1A bubble makes tactical squads a lot better in close combat... just something to consider for a vanilla SM list.

G

Without a powerfist, many mid-level characters can walk through a tac squad. WITH a powerfist that character really has to think twice about whether, how, and when he wants to charge the squad.

im guessing ghaz doesent count as mid-level?
but yes, very true, may not be much, but it still prevents the odd dread, kan or defiler getting too close.

I am in the camp of not using them at all . Their not worth the points and I have never seen them be anymore effective than what results you would normally get.


Think of it this way.


Dropping a P. Fist gets you 15 points closer.


I still insist that


10 Marines + Missile Launcher or H. Plasma your choice ; Meltagun Combi Melta

Razor Back 40 points.

230 points


Is better than


10 Marines, Power Fist ; Melta , H. Plasma 210.


I will take 2 Melta Guns and H. on the fall back than staying in close combat with something. feth that.

Wraithlord Charges w/ Blade. 4 Die, you have 2 attacks that hit 50 percent. Lets say you do 1 wound. Great you have lost by 3.


Now which is the better tactic. Staying in hand to hand w/ a Toughness 8 Creature or voluntarily falling back and being able to hit on 3+ with your melta weapons along with your other shooting.

A wound from the power fist versus T8 is not something I would bet on with two attacks but that would equal the combi melta. So it's two attacks that hit on 4+ versus one attack (combi melta only for comparison versus power fist) that hits on 3+. I don't see any reason why not to fall back after the initial close combat if your squad is charged by the WL and then charge it... that's three more attacks versus one from the combi melta.

Also the combi melta is a one time shot while the power fist works in multiple turns of close combat.

G

GBF, in that case a simple PW works well, ok, its not as strong, but hits 1st leaving less to attack back.

I was speaking specifically in regards to fighting a Wraithlord, which the power sword cannot wound. I don't use power weapons because they have a harder time wounding versus the power fist in general. I suppose if you had enough power weapons it could make a difference.

G

in the case of wraithlord then i would take PF over most tac weps, it will do its job pretty quickly.

i know, and against nids i would take PF's instead due to wounding MC's, but on average, PW's work out well against a vast ammount of units, allthough both PW and PF are wasted alot against small nids and orks.

Okay so here are the pros in relation to a power weapon:

Easier time wounding things
Creates a possibility to hurt tanks in CC
Makes many IC's scared/hesitant to rip apart your tactical squad.

And the Cons:

Strikes last
Expensive
Fewer attacks


Over all, I like to have more dedicated heavy unit hunters, so I leave the fists at home for my tac squads. But, if you feel that you should spread the love throughout your army, that may work for you too.