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I think it's a fallacy to use mathhammer comparisons to other marines to show why a power fist is weak in tactical squads. THe thing is, there are too many things in the game that can only be hurt by powerfists that you can't really stop completely with shooting. Nob bikers is one example, but it's not the only one. Terminators, wraith guard, plague marines, monstrous creatures, nobs, Deep striking oblits, independent characters, etc etc. get stopped by the power fist. No fist means that if such units get to hand to hand with the tactical squad, the squad folds. And it happens. A lot. A dreadnought drop pods down. You shoot it and don't kill it. Now your squads are filled with fail because the dreadnought owns them. I think if you combat squad a lot the fist isn't really vital. But if you keep them as a 10 man juicy target they better have something to deal with a monster like a daemon prince. Also, a large part of the game is about holding objectives. Close combat is a necessary evil, even ify ou don't want to be in hth, since the enemy needs to take your objective, he's gonna be coming for you.

scuddman wrote:I think it's a fallacy to use mathhammer comparisons to other marines to show why a power fist is weak in tactical squads. THe thing is, there are too many things in the game that can only be hurt by powerfists that you can't really stop completely with shooting. Nob bikers is one example, but it's not the only one. Terminators, wraith guard, plague marines, monstrous creatures, nobs, Deep striking oblits, independent characters, etc etc. get stopped by the power fist. No fist means that if such units get to hand to hand with the tactical squad, the squad folds. And it happens. A lot. A dreadnought drop pods down. You shoot it and don't kill it. Now your squads are filled with fail because the dreadnought owns them. I think if you combat squad a lot the fist isn't really vital. But if you keep them as a 10 man juicy target they better have something to deal with a monster like a daemon prince. Also, a large part of the game is about holding objectives. Close combat is a necessary evil, even ify ou don't want to be in hth, since the enemy needs to take your objective, he's gonna be coming for you.

If close combat is a necessary evil, you dont use Tacticals to do it...that's my point.

Until people start charging me with ratling squads SUCCESSFULLY, I'll be sticking to that point.

Fist? fine. CC with marines? GREAT! All I'm saying is choose your tools correctly. Fist-assault squad, Combi weapon-tacticals, its that simple.

Or are you guys thinking that a Krootox in a squad of firewarriors is a good idea? (assuming it was possible of course)

Well, that depends on army list design. If you take tacticals as troops and then max out on shooty stuff, then no fist = fail. If you take assault squads, terminators, close combat dreads, etc. then I can't advocate taking a fist. If you play mech marines, it's just bad news to not have a power fist that close to the enemy.
If the context is the tactical is shooty, hanging back, and something else like assault squad has fists, then fine, that makes sense.

However, that's not the only way to play tactical marines, or marines in general.

Really, the only thing tacticals do well is score. They're just as bad at shooting as they are at close combat. 10 guys one heavy weapon? Yeah, that gets outshot by guardians....

scuddman wrote:
Really, the only thing tacticals do well is score. They're just as bad at shooting as they are at close combat. 10 guys one heavy weapon? Yeah, that gets outshot by guardians....

Personally, I see Tacticals as being MUCH worse in HtH than shooting.

HtH...the only one that can be equipped to fight is the sergeant...the other 9 marines are left sucking hind teat.

Shooting....5pt melta, MM, combi-melta....these tacticals have a shooting mission that they're really GOOD at
.....Plasma, combi plasma, plasma cannon add bolters; Flamer, combi-flamer, add bolters. no, tacticals can be outfitted to shoot actually pretty darn well.

Besides scoring, and being at least DECENT in shooting vice sucking in HtH, Tacticals are also resiliant (again, this doesnt make them good at HtH as some people think, it only makes them resiliant) and have good leadership (adding to resiliancy)

Tactical ability for creative maneuvering is enhanced by Combat Tactics.


Tacticals can do much more than just score. Some of it they can also be competant at. Tacticals are NOT competant at HtH.

Massed attacks win games and tacticals are good at that. SC like Pedro Kantor make tacticals a good close combat unit. Some of us understand.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Massed attacks win games and tacticals are good at that. SC like Pedro Kantor make tacticals a good close combat unit. Some of us understand.

G

If you're going to use Kantor to help out....doesnt he help out assault marines or close combat command squads more? Just because he's around doesnt automatically make tacticals good at combat.

Would you rather have Kantor helping out a unit of Genestealers or guardsmen with lasguns? (hypothetically speaking) Just because he makes the Guardsmen fight better doesnt all of a sudden mean that guardsmen are great in close combat. You'd be better off making sure he's close enough to support some genestealers if thats your thing.

"Some of us understand"...cute, but you consistantly ignore the logic. Tacticals are NOT hand to hand fighters.

...besides, arent people are starting to realise that Kantor actually ISNT that great and special characters arent the 'be all and end all' of the Marine codex. Lynchpins like him that you build army strategies around are pretty easy to pull you know. What happens to your grand strategy with cantor once he take a fist to the face himself, or a vindicator shot splatters him all over creation? Looky there, your tacticals totally suck once again in CC....not that they were any good in the first place.

You're right, some of us DO understand.

An army has to have troops in it. Space Marine tactical squads are troops, shoot well, and are decent in close combat, (as all marines are) and if you are going to use alot of them, it wouldn't hurt to have Kantor anchoring the line so to speak. He makes all your marines less likely to run, and he gives them all an extra attack, pretty handing when standing on an objective.

My thinking is that this would be the type of SAFH army that would really benefit from Kantor, as he makes the marines tougher, is a decent counter-assault unit in and of himself, and makes your dedicated counter assault units better.

Uhmmmm guardsmen... I don't know what you are onto this morning.

If I used Pedro I would rather assault with tactical squads than say Sternguard. Tactical Marine are in many ways a better unit than assault Marines. It's better if you don't have to assault with your tactical Marines but sometimes it can't be avoided.

G

targetawg wrote:Now the opposing side goes: But against XXXX model the PW falls short. And yes, against t5 + it does perform worse progressively. However, T5 is typically located on dedicated CC units (MC's, Bloodcrushers, Nob bikers, Wraithlords) that you'll likely lose against anyways, when you could just have played better and not eaten a charge against that dedicated unit.

Then others will say "you can't always prevent being charged!" and this is true. However you have to realize you spend ~100 points on fists every game you play them, and run into that situation only a couple times during a tournament. In all of those other games, you're handicapping yourself a 100 points.

As shane said its just not the best way to spend your money.

I do love being able to self-quote..

Who runs four tactical squads? You are talking about not using points well. Three tactical squads are plenty.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Who runs four tactical squads? You are talking about not using points well. Three tactical squads are plenty.

G

You completely missed the point of the quote.





You arent even trying to understand what we're telling you.

For me the powerfist if a worthy upgrade.. after the tacticals heavy weapons, special weapons & combi-meltas.

If you dont decide to get any combis, for example, power sword all the way!

Out of say three tacticals.. get two rhinos with standard fare and one razorback with a lascannon, flamer/combi flamer & a pfist.

Three tacticals equiped and played well is the brillaint thing about Sm tacticals.. they can comprise a very solid core.. Unlike guardains, guard or gaunts.

If you say that you can take a landraider because your six tactical squads don't have power fists then good for you.

And yes I agree with Razerous - the tactical squad is one of the best scoring units.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:If you say that you can take a landraider because your six tactical squads don't have power fists then good for you.

And yes I agree with Razerous - the tactical squad is one of the best scoring units.

G

As shane said, you completely missed the point.

Instead of wasting 100 points on pfists, you waste 75. Woo. Its the same idea.

And 2: 6 tactical powerfists = 150, Landraider = 250

No one's saying tactical squads aren't one of the best scoring units. We're saying there are more optimal ways to load them out.

But apparently a lot of people here don't agree with you. That was my point, which you missed, and I don't mean it in a derisive or hostile fashion.

G

I've been following this thread for a while and I have to side with Shane.
Typically I gear my Tactical Squads to counter my opponent, but most often I take them with a missile launcher (free and flexible), a razorback normally with TL-lascannon and a special weapon and combi weapon that match my opponent best:
Deathwing: plasma
Greentide: flamer
Armored Company: melta
Of course that's a gross simplification and isn't always possible in tourneys, but in that case I take a balanced approach with each squad having a different pairing.
Also, depending on point allowances I give my sarge a power sword and don't bother with the exceedingly expensive powerfist.
I then break my squad up at the start of the game. Using the razorback to block LOS and contribute anti-tank/heavy infantry fire while my missile launcher fires frag or krak depending on need, and my sarge and special weapon move up to take objectives, kill vehicles or shoot and assault targets of opportunity or tie up CC units threatening my heavy weapons in the rear. Anywhere there is heavy CC going on, I know this 5 man crew is hamburger and to keep them away or make sure they die in someway that benefits me and I bring the termies or dreadnoughts in.
Basically the way I look at it is this: if you have a crowbar and a claw hammer, that claw hammer can be used to pry something open or off, but it'll never do the job as well as a crowbar and that crowbar can be used to beat nails in, but never as good as a claw hammer, so if you have room in your toolbox, bring both. Bring a CC unit capable of going toe-to-toe with MCs and dedicated CC units that make it to your tactical squads, don't attempt to use your tactical squads as anything but a stop gap to hold them up until you can get your heavy hitters in place

I am curious why you consider the fist to be exceedingly expensive when it only costs 10 more points than a power sword (which often bounces). Could you list one of your combined arms approach armies please?

G

Isnt PF just an insurance wargear then?
Just like taking lascannon vs missle lancher
one can argue its possible one might not ran into lots
of vehicle thus always only take missles o_-

Both sides both have valid points , just on how they play and how they choose to invest in insurance.

A flyrant with warp field will laugh at you while it claws your face off after 4 krak missiles have bounced off its 2+ save.

There are more unit types than just infantry & vehicles.

Deadshane1 wrote:As far as vehicles, Krak grenades do just fine considering rear armour and 10 attacks (especially considering that they're free!). If armour 14 is your problem (land raiders) powerfists arent going to help you that much, but a melta bomb on the sergeant might. I keep hearing people say how good fists are in vehicular close combat. I think the better weapons/abilities are krak/melta and combat tactics against dreads....but thats just me.

Remember: All greandes usually hit on 6's, so 1 sarg with a melta is IMHO not worth it ae...

Pfist are good in fights against walkers where, without, you may not rolls that 6, 6 and then a decent roll on the damage chart.

Otherwise krak grenades are good against slow/stopped vehicles.

Melta bombs.. stun a vehicle, bomb a vehicle. Offensive weapons.

adielubbe wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:As far as vehicles, Krak grenades do just fine considering rear armour and 10 attacks (especially considering that they're free!). If armour 14 is your problem (land raiders) powerfists arent going to help you that much, but a melta bomb on the sergeant might. I keep hearing people say how good fists are in vehicular close combat. I think the better weapons/abilities are krak/melta and combat tactics against dreads....but thats just me.

Remember: All greandes usually hit on 6's, so 1 sarg with a melta is IMHO not worth it ae...

P-fists hit on 6's too against vehicles then...sure you get more attacks but the melta is a guaranteed pen against armour 10. Its a trade off, but you pay 20 more points for the fist. 20 more points for two attacks, when you consider vehicles. I'd call this comparison a wash.

Dread? Combat Tactics then melta/combi melta. Easier kill than with a fist and much cheaper/efficient. Why is it more efficient, because the squad is doing what it is supposed to do/better at, shooting. Likely the dread isnt far enough across the board to escort you off. If it is...you made a mistake.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I am curious why you consider the fist to be exceedingly expensive when it only costs 10 more points than a power sword (which often bounces). Could you list one of your combined arms approach armies please?

G

This point, I think, has already been argued in the thread, but a sergeant by himself with no gear would be a 26 pt model (90-(4x16)=26) , adding a power sword adds 15 pts making him a 41 pt model, barely more than a terminator. That's ok if you happen to have 15 pts lying around and you expect high armor save models in your opponents army and thats the only time I worry about power weapons in tactical squads, is if I have the spare points. I'm not going to cut back else where for it. Now a powerfist in my opinion is out right a waste on a sarge except as insurance. My opinion of insurance has always been that when you buy insurance you're betting you're going to let something bad happen to yourself. So, I try to bet that I can avoid the situation by having more options else where on the table. In my experience the only way I've kept MCs in control is to sit back and shoot them to death or swarm them with powerfist, which point for point terminators do much better than a few combat squads led by powerfist hefting sergeants.

As far as how my lists typically go its somehting like:
Random HQ of the week (I can rarely stick with just one for more than one game unless league or tourney rules limit it, as I like variety)
At least 2 full tactical squads as described above, tailoring for opponent if allowed.
1-2 full units of terminators with cyclone launchers (more flexible for the points than assault cannons due to 5ed rending and now being 2 shots)
0-1 unit of assault terminators
1-2 triple lascannon predators
The rest of the points go wherever.. In 4ed it almost inevitably went to attack bikes, but 5ed made them easy KP, so now left overs go to upgrades that I typically don't take until afterwards (powerswords, extra armor, pintle storm bolters, etc. etc.)
Sometimes if I'm feeling a wild hair I'll throw in a unit of devastators with either missile launchers or lascannons, depending on the situation.

Razerous wrote:A flyrant with warp field will laugh at you while it claws your face off after 4 krak missiles have bounced off its 2+ save.

There are more unit types than just infantry & vehicles.

Yes, there are more threats than just vehicles and infantry, but in a tyranid army I doubt my razorbacks will have any tanks to harass so guess what big gribbly won't be laughing when his 2+ save is negated. Also, you may not have noticed that one of those examples I gave would work very well against MCs: Plasma+Combi-Plasma. At rapid fire range I'm looking at losing 2/9 of a marine, but I'm likely to cause 1 and 7/9 wounds to your flyrant. After the rapid fire more than likely you will nom my combat squad, but who cares? I lost 110 pts and I've taken half of your MC's wounds and hopefully put him in position for a concentrated salvo from most of my army more than likely outright killing your 130-170ish pt MC..

I'm also going to chime in here and agree with Deadshane on the inefficiency of equipping all your tactical squads with power fists. Leave the heavy hitting to your proper close combat units (terminators, assault marines, vanguard marines, dreadnoughts, etc) and let the tacticals do what they're best at. Shooting the junk out of things and holding objectives.

Green Blow Fly wrote:But apparently a lot of people here don't agree with you.
G

Starting to look a little more "vice-versa".

...all it takes is a mind open enough to see the points made here.

I wouldn't even go so far as to say they're good at shooting. They're just above mediocre at shooting and mediocre at close combat in my opinion. But they're scoring units with better resilience pt for pt than any other scoring unit. And trust me, it hurts me to say that because I used to love scouts in 4ed, in the new codex they're just a pile of suck.. same pt cost and lower stats for a unit that I think wasn't shown much love in 4ed to begin with.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:But apparently a lot of people here don't agree with you.
G

Starting to look a little more "vice-versa".

...all it takes is a mind open enough to see the points made here.

Are you contacting people offline to get them to side with you? Kind of funny seeing all these swing votes this late. Most of the arguments in favor of not taking a power fist are based on very hypothetical gaming situations and do not take the big picture into account. For instance why would anyone say SM are not good at shooting? They hit on 3+ with S4/AP5 and can double tap. They can take a heavy weapon and a special weapon.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:
Are you contacting people offline to get them to side with you? Kind of funny seeing all these swing votes this late. Most of the arguments in favor of not taking a power fist are based on very hypothetical gaming situations and do not take the big picture into account. For instance why would anyone say SM are not good at shooting? They hit on 3+ with S4/AP5 and can double tap. They can take a heavy weapon and a special weapon.
G

I never said space marines weren't good at shooting, I said tactical squads are above mediocre at shooting. When you compare them to other specialized shooting units, like devastators and sternguard, it's obvious no one goes "OMG!! I've got to find someway to eliminate that tactical squad before it's firepower ruins my army!" like I do when I see 1-2 thunderfire cannons on the other side of the table from my footslogging orks.. Nothing like 4 strength 5, ignores cover saves small blasts to put a 120 orks back into their carrying case... I've never looked at a tactical squad like that while playing my orks.
Rapid fire in my opinion is overrated as in most situations it's very much a gamble of "do I move close, rapid fire and risk taking the charge next turn or sit back and fire once and wait until next turn?" The majority of the time I use rapid fire is with plasmagun+combi-plasma firing, despite it's inherent dangers as plasma mainly because I want to get the most out of my combi-weapon. Sure against gaunts boltgun rapid fire is a great tactic, but there's lots of worse threats in CC that'll easily withstand the gentle pitter pat of a boltgun's rapid fire. Besides, if it's nasty enough to warrant the use of a powerfist, boltguns are just going to tickle it
As far as hypothetical gaming situations, what were you referring to?

themandudeperson wrote:I wouldn't even go so far as to say they're good at shooting.

G

Razerous wrote:A flyrant with warp field will laugh at you while it claws your face off after 4 krak missiles have bounced off its 2+ save.

And then that flyrant will continue laughing when it charges your 10 man tactical squad, taking a wound from your power fist and then dealing 4-5 back. It'll laugh even harder when it stops you from "combat tactics"ing away from combat until your own turn, when it finishes off your squad, then moves D6 + 12 + 6 inches into any unit it wants. Good thing you received that charge by the tac marines. Try hiding in a rhino next time. It's better than trading a scoring unit for one or two wounds on a flyrant.

That was not a good example to try and advocate power fists.

Green Blow Fly wrote:
Are you contacting people offline to get them to side with you? Kind of funny seeing all these swing votes this late.

It really disturbs me that you see this thread as some sort of 'cool' contest. If 500 people posted 'pfists rule' I still wouldn't take them, and i still would be a good 40k player. But we see now that you are counting votes.

Either to make sure that you are on the side with more votes... or to prepare to revise your opinion.

I find myself giving a whole lot more advice than getting here on dakka. Its still an awesome place to come, but i wouldn't put much faith in 'numbers of people who agree'. What really counts is your own experiences in game, with your own playstyle, with your own list design. And then your W/L record with that list design/strategy.


This thread, however, probably has a lot of data for a new space marine player. There is some great information in the back and forth to be disseminated.

My final verdict on pfists... Not in any of the space marine lists I've designed as of yet. I have had great success using space marines as an assault force, and adequate success using them as a drop pod force, using teleportation to leave a combat I don't want to be in rather than stick it out. I just don't need them, and I need those points. You might use tacticals differently, and might want a pfist... but I would say that you are not using them to their best potential if they are getting into combat with MCs or charging vehicles (especially walkers) regularly.