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targetawg wrote:Vanguard can only deepstrike with jump packs.

Vanquard cannot move or run or fleet the turn they deepstrike if they plan to use their heroic intervention ability, the can only charge, if in range.

You're forgetting to mention that that vanguard squad, although better in this one situation has a few disadvantages to a tactical squad:

1) The tactical squad is 10 less points
2) The tactical squad comes with a transport (rhino) and 5 more guys. For the 10 less points
3) The tactical squad scores
4) They can move around and fire on enemy units all game, they aren't just present for that one combat against the necron warriors
5) The tacticals have 10 wounds and a vehicle, rather than 5 of the same stat line models with no vehicle

Your Vanguard squad beats them against a MEQ opponent by what, 1-2 wounds? In exchange for all of those huge drawbacks above?

And in my example, you have a full strength tactical squad versus a half strength warrior squad, yes.

But what you're forgetting to mention is the more important point, in my example, the 2 units are equal points. 10 Tacticals = 10 Necron warriors. In yours the necrons have double points on the tacticals. Not to mention that I've never once come across a necron player silly enough to use a 20 man squad.

Edit: And as an aside, do you understand necron rules? Part of your post above makes me wonder. WBB rolls don't occur until the following necron turn, its not FNP.

Firstly, let me preface this by saying that I really wasn't saying load up all three of your fast attacks with vanguard, because they own. They don't.. they're overcosted for what you get and 9 times out of 10, if they pull of heroic intervention correctly, they slaughter the unit, then get shot to hell. The problem I've seen with people using them is they want to load them out with horrendous amounts of gear, keep it cheap if you can. I think two powerfist and a relic blade are the maximum you'd want to give them.
1) 10 pts does make a difference, but if it's that drastic of an issue, drop the relic blade and suddenly you're 5 pts under.
2) The point total I came up with for a vanguard unit was close to what a tactical squad with powerfist and rhino had, which if I had to try and engage a necron warrior squad in close combat with a tactical squad, would be my approach. In fact, as mentioned above, you can drop the relic blade to save 15 pts and come in 5 pts cheaper. Actually, now that I think about it, the sergeant would have 4 attacks on the charge, 2 hits 1 wound, you're basically paying 15 pts for .25 wounds against MEQ's. That's not really that great of a point investment.
3) That's only important if you're using the tactical squads in a capacity that involves them surviving. As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, the necrons will most likely disengage close combat and light you up next turn with multiple units rapid firing. Even if they do survive, all they will do is contest the objective, which any unit can do.
4) So can jump infantry, the only problem is after soaking up all the fire that's going to be dumped on them, they're not likely to be a contributing factor offensively and neither will the tactical squad. The rhino is front armor 11 and side armor 10, any destroyers in the area are going to pop it like a grape. Hell.. you'll be lucky to get the tactical squad to the necrons with the rhino intact, much less have it around to use after your charge.
5) This is definitely one of the vanguard's glaring weaknesses. I'm not going to deny it, but potentially if you don't screw yourself on the deep strike, you'll maim a unit of necron warriors badly with these guys. Yeah, they'll spend the next turn with their asses hung out to dry, but so will the tactical squad, if enough models survive to get there to win combat to begin with.

If you want me to redo those numbers again with 12 warriors I can.. but it won't make much difference in the number

Also, I am rusty on the WBB rules. It's been a while since I've faced necrons and I didn't catch myself until you mentioned it, I did figure in the WBB rolls like FNP. My bad.. Also, I'm no longer 100% on what negates WBB rolls. I believe it's power weapon attacks in CC and ID weapons when there isn't a res orb nearby.. right?

I used tactical squads in rhinos with optimally kitted as follows:

Meltagun, lascannon, power fist

First turn I move the rhino onto an objective if possible and blow smoke. Mind you I have at least four rhinos in my army. Mid game I will fire the lascannon from inside the rhino at light to medium enemy armor. If the enemy advances and is mechanized I will then fire the meltas at enemy armor that poses the most threat. Late game I will charge if necessary or rapid fire depending on which yields the highest rate of success. If I don't have to use the power fists I won't purposedly put my squads into position to use them.

My tactical squads are multi purpose and I use them however I best see fit. It's best when they can sit on an objective and play a defensive roll. Typically I wi assault with them to throw more weight into an already ensuing coMbat if I do use them in assault. The three power fist attacks can easily swing the advantage to my favor.

Your use of tactical squads is more limited since you brace for assaults with one attack per bolter Marine then break so you can shoot again. Since I do charge I get three attacks per bolted Marine.. one shot with the bolt pistol us two attacks on the charge into the assault. That is 9*2 close combat attacks plus 9 bolt pistol shots plus one shot from the meltagun...

18 close combat hits that land on 4+ versus WS4+
3 power fist attacks that hit on 4+ versus WS4+
9 bolt pistol shots that hit on 3+
1 meltagun shot that hits on 2+

31 attacks in total

Against another 10 man tactical squad:

9 close combat attacks hit and 4-5 wound/ 1-2 enemy Marines fail their save
1-2 power fist hit for same number of unsaved wounds
Meltagun hits for one more unsaved wound

So 3-5 unsaved wounds not including shots fired from
the bolt pistols for six more wounds and two more failed saves. This brings the kill count up to 5-7.

The enemy unit equipped without a power fist can land 10 hits, five of which hit and 1-2 failed saves. I win the combat by 3-6 wounds. There is a good chance the enemy will break and if they don't fall back far enough they remain a broken unit and can be herded off the table. They may also have to take additional armor saves which brings them even lower and there is solid possibility they lose both/either their special weapon and/or heavy weapon as well due to the wound allocations.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I used tactical squads in rhinos with optimally kitted as follows:

Meltagun, lascannon, power fist

245 pts vs the 210 pts I spend for same squad

First turn I move the rhino onto an objective if possible and blow smoke. Mind you I have at least four rhinos in my army. Mid game I will fire the lascannon from inside the rhino at light to medium enemy armor.

so basically, you waste the points on the lascannon for a mobile squad to occasionally use a lascannon midfield where a melta can do the same job better.

If the enemy advances and is mechanized I will then fire the meltas at enemy armor that poses the most threat.

again, since you advanced within Rhino's first, a MM would serve you better here, but whatever.

Late game I will charge if necessary

which it shouldnt be with tacticals, but go on...

or rapid fire depending on which yields the highest rate of success.

basically what you should be planning to do in the first place as this is where the squads true offensive abilities lie.

If I don't have to use the power fists I won't purposedly put my squads into position to use them.

wasting 25 pts that you've spent...wait, make that 100 pts since you mention having 4 rhino's I guess this means four tac squads.

My tactical squads are multi purpose and I use them however I best see fit. It's best when they can sit on an objective and play a defensive roll.

again, wasting BIG points on powerfists that they dont need for this mission.

Typically I wi assault with them to throw more weight into an already ensuing coMbat if I do use them in assault.

wasting 40 pts on weapons that are outclassed by combat tactics and MM's...especially since you mentioned that you're mid-feild with these guys.

The three power fist attacks can easily swing the advantage to my favor.

The thing you fail to see despite people hammering you with the facts is that 1.5 (assuming a lucky charge) or 1 hit in close combat with a fist doesnt easily swing anything! 1 (or even two if luck is on your side) extra casualty ISNT slaughtering your enemy in close combat. Its not winning you that much.

Your use of tactical squads is more limited since you brace for assaults with one attack per bolter Marine then break so you can shoot again.

actually its more dynamic since its utilising the entire squad in the shooting phase and using combat tactics...but go on...

Since I do charge I get three attacks per bolted Marine.. one shot with the bolt pistol us two attacks on the charge into the assault.

...wasting the rapid fire bolter shots and potential combi-weapon shots that the squad is actually BUILT and EQUIPPED to do...

That is 9*2 close combat attacks plus 9 bolt pistol shots plus one shot from the meltagun...

as apposed to 14 bolter shots, two melta, and a possible MM shot for standing still? All hitting on 3's instead of half on 4+ and with no threat to the unit itself. Your "advantage" is no advantage at all.

18 close combat hits that land on 4+ versus WS4+
3 power fist attacks that hit on 4+ versus WS4+
9 bolt pistol shots that hit on 3+
1 meltagun shot that hits on 2+

31 attacks in total

Ok, so lets play your game, tac squad vs tac squad, we already know that my unit shoots better (due to the added combi-weapon) so we'll ignore the shooting for sake of simplicity, but assuming I charge (god knows why, but I'll do it for sake of arguement) with NO powerfist lets see how much better your results are against a fresh tac squad than mine....

You

9xmarines attack marines, 9 hit, 4.5 wound, 1.5 dead marines
Sgt attacks with fist 1.5 hit, Less than 1.5 dead

-kills: almost 3

Me

9xmarines attack marines, 9 hit, 4.5 wound, 1.5 dead marines.
Sgt attacks 1.5 hit, .75 wound, less than 1 dead

-kills: almost 2

So basically, Your fist doesnt make you THAT much better in CC. Not 25pts better anyway. My squad, designed for shooting, shoots MUCH better than your's however since I'm not afraid of using my rapid fire ability, standing still and shooting a heavy weapon and probably have a combi-weapon.

...basically, my tactical squad does things it's actually suited to do....and it does them all well, not great, well. Your tactical squad tries to do things it isnt designed to do (hth) and therefore does it BARELY better than my squad who also isnt designed to do hth.

Shane I rarely lose with my Space Marines and not once against another Space Marine army. You have made a lot of assumptions that are wrong. If you really believe a one shot combi is better than a power fist and makes you a lot better at shooting then good for you. You are definitely wrong about a multi-melta being better than a lascannon. There are plenty of situations where objectives are not placed in the middle of the table. Is that where you always place them?

G

Your record with your armies doesnt matter. Its not any sort of argument to enforce your point here. I can sit here and say that I rarely lose with my firewarrior hand to hand army...it doesnt mean a thing.

I havent made any assumptions, math PROVES that p-fists arent more effective against tactical marines, you just refuse to accept it.

A one shot combi DOES make the unit a BIT better at what it already does fairly well. A powerfist makes tacticals do a 'little' better at something they suck at. Furthermore, its at the expense of the other nine members talents of what THEY do well.

I'm definatly wrong about MM's being better than Lascannons...tell me how? MM's bust tanks better/easier, and kill hard armoured troopers JUST as easy....the only thing that lascannons have is 2' range....which you pay 10 more points for while giving up AP1 and 2d6 pen at short ranges.

Its a preferance, I prefer MM's. I'm not saying they're THAT much better than Lascannons, I just prefer them. I can tell you that YOUR tactics that you pointed out above arent so fabulous for them though. You use them as an afterthought if your post above is any indication....something that a FREE missle launcher would serve you better for.

I care about efficient point spending in army lists to allow for MORE units to do damage/accomplish missions. You obviously care about bringing the most powerful thing availiable and damn the point expenditure. If that approach serves you then fine, but it doesnt make your choices the most efficient ones, and DEFINATLY not the best ones for EVERYONE.

You're sitting there telling us that we're wrong (those of us who DONT use multiple PF's in Tac squads), that your choices are better than ours, and that marines are great in HtH with powerfists.....and you do so without backing up any of your claims with logic, facts OR math.

We're telling you that you're wrong, showing you math, showing you point costs, stating facts and promoting better generalship. OVER AND OVER again. However, you glaze over what we tell you and state that..."I rarely lose and have never lost against another marine". Good debate technique.

Aren't you doing the same thing? Get over it already.

G

No, I'm not doing the same thing. At the risk of repeating myself....

I'm stating facts.

You're telling us your win record.


One of us is contributing to this thread.

Shane I have supported my claims with tactics and strategic discussions. There has been lots of positive response to what I have said from others here following this post. Why are you trying to spin what I have said?

G

how about you both just leave the argument?
lets face it, neither of you are getting anywhere, and neither of you will change your mind about your decision, its just going to be page after page of pointless arguments.

when really, its all down to personal preference of the general.

Well said JD.

G

NO! Continue arguing, I'm at work for another 7 hours and I need, nay demand, entertainment!!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Okay just imagine what I would like to really say.

G

lol, its simply a deadlock
and at the end of the day, everyone has thier own view.

ozzy, youtube is your friend when your bored

Polonius wrote:
although the enemy still needs to botch it's sweeping advance)

Just so you know you can NOT sweeping advance space marines. They take a number of wound equal to how many points they lost the combat by (normal saving thows allowed)

This has been a very eye-opening thread.

I've still got Powerfists on most of my dudes becuase well.. that's what the models have. Indeed I have been finding them less useful this edition.

In fact only last game I played a squad with no powerfist because I was playing against a new player and wanted to make my army "softer". He got a Dread within 6", but I lost 3 guys to shooting and voluntary fall back'd to stop the charge, then killed it with Sternguard melta. Then the Sternguard got charged by the second dread. As it happend I lost the initiative roll-off to run away and the sternguard died (Yes, to failed saves. Yes, I know rules), oh well.

If I'd had a Powerfist I probably would have taken the first charge with bravado and got owned (1/9 chance of killing the dread). Sometimes having contingencies makes you play worse. (Like, I play Daemons better when I have no Icons, because otherwise I end up deep striking my Horrors too close to the enemy "to be safe").

I can see how if you allready have Pedro for some bad reason, you'd be better off taking Fists, becuase your boys become Stubborn and like to stick around in lost cause combats, may as well to some wounds whilst there.

It is hard to let go.. last edition powerfists really were that good, after all. But then, it's not like I kept Starcannons in my Eldar army..

Now I need to aquire some Combiweapons..

Neil wrote:

In fact only last game I played a squad with no powerfist because I was playing against a new player and wanted to make my army "softer". He got a Dread within 6", but I lost 3 guys to shooting and voluntary fall back'd to stop the charge, then killed it with Sternguard melta. Then the Sternguard got charged by the second dread. As it happend I lost the initiative roll-off to run away and the sternguard died (Yes, to failed saves. Yes, I know rules), oh well.

If I'd had a Powerfist I probably would have taken the first charge with bravado and got owned (1/9 chance of killing the dread). Sometimes having contingencies makes you play worse. (Like, I play Daemons better when I have no Icons, because otherwise I end up deep striking my Horrors too close to the enemy "to be safe").

I can see how if you allready have Pedro for some bad reason, you'd be better off taking Fists, becuase your boys become Stubborn and like to stick around in lost cause combats, may as well to some wounds whilst there.

Thats a very interesting point as well.

There's totally a reason to take a lascannon over a multimelta in a rhino squad...It's totally why you would pay 15 points for a chaos plasma pistol instead of the 10 point meltagun.

You can hurt the avatar! I got ya there..It's totally super effective.

Hey! Why are people throwing things at me?

scuddman wrote:There's totally a reason to take a lascannon over a multimelta in a rhino squad...It's totally why you would pay 15 points for a chaos plasma pistol instead of the 10 point meltagun.

You can hurt the avatar! I got ya there..It's totally super effective.

Hey! Why are people throwing things at me?

*throws his 4th ed. powerfist equipped tactical sergeants at you*

Personally, I think the main source of the argument is GW realized in 4ed how effective powerfists were and decided to up their costs to make up for it in the DA/BA codexes and to keep those already shat upon players from crying foul, they kept the price the same in the new Space Marine codex. Then for some reason, when 5ed came out they decided to take away the +1 attack it gained if the bearer had a pistol as well to balance as well. The only problem is they threw the power/cost balance from overpowered to overcosted.

On a side note, if GW had allowed tacticals to trade their boltguns for chainswords for free, would people out there think a powerfist would be a worthwhile addition to a 10 man scoring unit with BPs and CCWs?

themandudeperson wrote:

scuddman wrote:There's totally a reason to take a lascannon over a multimelta in a rhino squad...It's totally why you would pay 15 points for a chaos plasma pistol instead of the 10 point meltagun.

You can hurt the avatar! I got ya there..It's totally super effective.

Hey! Why are people throwing things at me?

*throws his 4th ed. powerfist equipped tactical sergeants at you*

Personally, I think the main source of the argument is GW realized in 4ed how effective powerfists were and decided to up their costs to make up for it in the DA/BA codexes and to keep those already shat upon players from crying foul, they kept the price the same in the new Space Marine codex. Then for some reason, when 5ed came out they decided to take away the +1 attack it gained if the bearer had a pistol as well to balance as well. The only problem is they threw the power/cost balance from overpowered to overcosted.

On a side note, if GW had allowed tacticals to trade their boltguns for chainswords for free, would people out there think a powerfist would be a worthwhile addition to a 10 man scoring unit with BPs and CCWs?

I can see a powerfist in THAT unit. Kind of like I can see PF's in Assault Squads. Not that they're AWESOME CC troops, but they're competant unlike tacticals.

themandudeperson wrote:Personally, I think the main source of the argument is GW realized in 4ed how effective powerfists were and decided to up their costs to make up for it in the DA/BA codexes and to keep those already shat upon players from crying foul, they kept the price the same in the new Space Marine codex. Then for some reason, when 5ed came out they decided to take away the +1 attack it gained if the bearer had a pistol as well to balance as well. The only problem is they threw the power/cost balance from overpowered to overcosted.

Yep, they changed the point cost to match last edition's effectiveness and the effectiveness to match last edition's point cost.

See Also:

Starcannons
Rhinos
Ork Boys
Assault Cannons
Plasma Guns
(many others)

Look at Chaos Marine units such as Nurgle Marines and Khorne Berzerkers. They commonly feature a power fist and no one makes any bones about it. Look at Space Wolf Blood Claws with three power fist (up to four if you take a WGL) and counter charge. No one makes any bones about that. These units are troop choices but differ from a tactical squad since they have multiple attacks per model and cannot field heavy weapons. Are these units not good as a troop choice for power armored armies because they can't take heavy weapons? I think people will say they are still good, in fact most people think that Nurgle amarines are one of the best troop choices available... you have to field your heavy weapons for these armies using other units such as obliterators and predators. Obviously we aren't comparing apples to apples if we try to draw similar conclusions about these assault oriented troops versus tactical squads. However there are other Space Marine armies that have access to special abilities that will enhance their tactical squads for the assault role. One example is Pedro Kantor with his +1A bubble. Another one is Blood Angels fielding Dante and Corbulo - furious charge, preferred enemy and -1 WS to enemy units (all only apply if within said areas of effect). Even a case could be made for Shrike and the Khan. Fleet and outflanking enhance close combat, not shooting. So it's not possible to pigeonhole all tactical squads into one common class. There are just too many variations available to the Space Marine player when designing an army. i should also mention at this point that Blood Angele can take assault squads that count as a troop choice. For those that play armies that strictly want to design a shooty army and use combat tactics to make up for lack of close combat prowess with a dedicated assault unit then yes these particular style is better off without the power fist and that makes their generals happy.

Is the power fist actually worse in 5th as compared to 4th? In 4th you had one extra attack. In 5th power fists sutomatically hit rear armor. In 5th a fearless unit has to take a number of armor saves equal to the wounds they lost by in close combat... Even 1-2 extra wounds due to the power fist can make a big difference here. To me it all balances out in the end.

G

Actually, the hitting vehicles in rear armor makes power fists slightly less worthwhile against non-walkers, because marines are equipped with krak grenades that do wonders to AV 10.

I think I just heard a toilet flush.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Is the power fist actually worse in 5th as compared to 4th?

Yes.

In 5th power fists sutomatically hit rear armor.

So do krak grenades. So Power Fists beame less useful in this case.

In 5th a fearless unit has to take a number of armor saves equal to the wounds they lost by in close combat... Even 1-2 extra wounds due to the power fist can make a big difference here.

If you assume charging (3 attacks), and you assume that you win the combat (a big assumption), then it works out the same if the opponent has 3+ armour save, and better only if they have a worse save than that. If not charging, the powerfist is worse in 5th ed rules for a 3+ or better save, the same for 4+, and better only for 5+.

(Mathhammer: Each powerfist attack yeilds y wounds, therefore x attacks yeild xy wounds, therefore the chance of an armour save being failed is xy*z, where z is the chance of an armor save being failed. The chance of a single extra powerfist attack killing a model is also y, so for equivalency of xy*z=y, z=1/x)

To me it all balances out in the end.

I'm starting to doubt your analytical skills.

.....twice.

I think it's really a context thing. If everything else in your army has a powerfist, why do you need to give tactical squads one? They're not going to use it. You have something else to do that job.

It's the old argument of specializing vs. generalizing. If you generalize your army, then you'll need the fists more. If you specialize, then tacticals shouldn't ever be in hand to hand unless it's Tau or guardsman.

You can think of it like this...would you give storm troopers a power fist? How about guardsman? Probably not...why not? Same reason why deadshane says so.

But what if you did the power armor tactical squad horde? Everything is scoring and on foot. Yeah, you'd probably take some power fists somewhere, though probably not on every squad.

I think it comes down to playstyle...for once I think GW got it right. If two good players can't agree on whether a choice should be taken..maybe it's pretty balanced?

Okay, deadshane needs to make a list with lots of powerfists, then GBF should make a list with no power fists. They should swap lists, play each other, and try to prove their points right.

Then deadshane can make a list and not swap, GBF can make a list and not swap, and they can try to prove to each other again.

Grudge match: To fist or not to fist? That is the big question!

Then I will prove them both wrong by taking assault squad sergeants with dual power weapons! Yeah! That's the ticket! Taking a setup more expensive than a powerfist and less effective, only a true man amongst men would try such a feat.

Edit: On a more serious note, I think that's actually a good idea for you guys to support your context by showing what space marine army list you're talking about.

Powerfists on Berserkers make sense, as they're designed to assault, thus the power fist makes them better at assaulting. Actually, that goes in general for most of the units in the Chaos codex, as they come base with 2 attacks, lending themselves to a more assault-oriented army. The loss of ATSKNF (even with rerollable Ld10) and no combat tactics means that their basic CSM (which are the direct comparison here, not the cult squads) can't always sit back and watch while a dreadnought lumbers their way. Especially given the supporting units (and the few numbers of multimeltas/heavy weapons in general), the CSM have to be jack of all trades, and slightly better in combat than shooting, really the reverse of codex SM.

And I think I mentioned earlier, if you're playing an army that doesn't have Combat Tactics, then you have to start considering such back-ups as power fists. You can't simply run away. That doesn't mean that it's necessarily a good thing, but more of a necessary evil. And yes, if you have nothing else in your army that has powerfists/other ways of smacking people around, then a powerfist here and there is probably good. But neither of these mean that everyone should automatically go for the powerfist on their Tac squad sergeants. Powerfists are a luxury that most armies can do without if they are built and played well.