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I think the number one reason why most people opt not to take power fists is to save points. I can see the value of a power weapon for an HQ... they generally hit first, hit on 3+ and have a lot of attacks. If I decided to save points by not taking power fists I would not use those points to field power weapons in my tactical squads.

G

If you play marine equivalents, then power fists are a must, seeing how if you are assaulted you at least take some with you, since normal close combat attacks will only kill an average of one or two MEQ (at least in all the games I have played)

Fiendcrackar! wrote:If you play marine equivalents, then power fists are a must, seeing how if you are assaulted you at least take some with you, since normal close combat attacks will only kill an average of one or two MEQ (at least in all the games I have played)

So, are they better than regular PW?

Of course for all the reasons already presented here.

G

Fiendcrackar! wrote:If you play marine equivalents, then power fists are a must, seeing how if you are assaulted you at least take some with you, since normal close combat attacks will only kill an average of one or two MEQ (at least in all the games I have played)

Gee, what a coincidence. Powerfist do exactly the same thing in that very example...but for 10 pts more.

Your example here about why powerfists are a MUST, doesnt exactly blow my skirt up.

Depends on the unit and it's function. I play chaos and Plague marines get a fist (Int 3), my Noise marines get a PW (int 5). Generally for regular squads I'll spend points on melta and plasma guns over a fist. Sure there are instances when a fist is great, against monoliths, instant death on characters, etc., but putting one in every squad can add up. Generally I have three to four squads in an army, so 100 pts on fists could be a squad of three termies.

Deadshane1 wrote:In both these cases, Nid monstrous and WL's, your better weapons are combat tactics and shooting. You might do a wound with a powerfist, but those 25 pts vs monstrous creatures would be better spent in say shooting attacks. Against Monstrous Creature tyranids, I'd say two combi-plasmas and a melta gun would be better purchases....and easier wounds against the tyranids as well.

A single powerfist doenst make you any sort of a match in hand to hand combat against Tyranids. Thinking it does is delusional. Tyranid big creatures are what high str shooting weapons are for, assault terminators with hammers/sheilds. Tyranid mostrous creatures wipe the walls with tacticals, its exactly where they would like to be, especially after softening up your army with shooting and then charging the powerfist armed tactical squad with say, a hive tyrant with lash whip. Tyranids laugh at your puny fists...and the fact you think you can fight them in hth.

You also arent locked in with the beast.

Deadshane1 wrote:In both these cases, Nid monstrous and WL's, your better weapons are combat tactics and shooting. You might do a wound with a powerfist, but those 25 pts vs monstrous creatures would be better spent in say shooting attacks. Against Monstrous Creature tyranids, I'd say two combi-plasmas and a melta gun would be better purchases....and easier wounds against the tyranids as well.

A single powerfist doenst make you any sort of a match in hand to hand combat against Tyranids. Thinking it does is delusional. Tyranid big creatures are what high str shooting weapons are for, assault terminators with hammers/sheilds. Tyranid mostrous creatures wipe the walls with tacticals, its exactly where they would like to be, especially after softening up your army with shooting and then charging the powerfist armed tactical squad with say, a hive tyrant with lash whip. Tyranids laugh at your puny fists...and the fact you think you can fight them in hth.

You're delusional if you think that one melta makes you a match against tyranids.

You're delusional if you think that 25 points isn't worth the difference between a carnifex with an ordinance weapon dying a turn earlier than otherwise.

You're delusional if you think squads won't already have special weapons.

Also, you fail to realize, having a powerfist does not force you to HtH. It is just that WHEN you get charged, you do extra damage, and can combat tactics away afterwords. With moderate luck, 3+ to hit 2+ to wound, you could take away half a dakkafex's wounds in one of your opponent's assault phases. If it's 113 points are 50% dead before your turn even starts, it's a lot more likely you'll be minus one annoying MC later.


You need to stop arguing that marines Have to be tau. They're WS4 and S4 and I4 by default. This means they don't automatically have to bend over and lift up their skirts to any enemy unit with anything more than S3.

just a thing here to rule out melta fire against MC's:

you will get 1 shot max before it rushes your unit, in that 1 turn theres a chance you may miss, or even fail to wound.
in CC you can go a few rounds with it, and with a fist theres a good chance of killing it.
even a power wep works better than a melta.

JD21290 wrote:just a thing here to rule out melta fire against MC's:

you will get 1 shot max before it rushes your unit, in that 1 turn theres a chance you may miss, or even fail to wound.
in CC you can go a few rounds with it, and with a fist theres a good chance of killing it.
even a power wep works better than a melta.

But the very advantage of a melta gun over a plasma gun is that you can assault after firing it.

I have a twin-melta/P-fist CSM squad that routinely goes monstrous creature hunting. Firing the meltas before charging in with a powerfist is pretty deadly, even against tough CC targets like a Hive Tyrant.

erm, tyrants arent tough, they aspire to be a fex
but yea, with guards i spose it may make it harder to kill.

i was just simply saying that you cant rely on melta fire alone against a MC, it wont kill it.

oh, and against a BT, all those weps are screwed XD
inv. saved tend to ruin some amazing weps, allthough, chances are they wont be much to fight back once the BT starts attacking.

I guess if you fell back four times you have a chance at killing the MC with your trusted meltagun.

G

Deadshane1 wrote:The only monstrous creature you have a fighting chance of WINNING a combat against is a Wraithlord (or armour 12 dread), and that's if it whiffs.

Powerfists do NOT give you fighting chances against MC's with any sort of multiple attacks and mobility. Bloodthirsters, Tyrants, DaemonPrinces, or armour 13 dreads, you're not WINNING these combats. You have 2 attacks...generally hitting with one, wounding, then hoping the opponent fails his Invuln or hoping to get over armour 12/13...then running anyway because you have a better chance of wounding him during the shooting phase with multiple str 4 and melta.

I wasn't talking about winning a round of combat. I was refering to winning the combat overall. My large Fearless cult chaos squads will win in a combat against anything short of a Bloodthirster as they can absorb enough wounds to give a Powerfist the time to kill anything with 4 wounds or less.

If in the end my squad still exists and the MC/Walker does not, I call that winning the combat.

If one has combat tactics, then power fists become more of a luxury item. Are they good to have? Sure. It lets you do about 1 wound more, 1.5 on a charge, that people can't deal with. It gives you the possibility to squish T4 characters. However, they're expensive. I can think of other uses for the points I'd spend on fists. You many not even need them, particularly depending on how you build the rest of your army and how you deploy. For instance, my Iron Hands army has 6 dreads. Why would I need to spend 75 more points to put yet more powerfists on tac squads, when they can just run away and let the dreads handle tough things? Identify things that threaten your army in HTH and shoot them dead before they get there; if they get close, combat tactics away and fire some more.

However, if you replace combat tactics, then powerfists become slightly more important. Since you can't voluntarily fall back, it's important that your squads are able to do something should a nasty enemy get to you. This is particularly true if you play Lysander or Pedro and thus have Stubborn, meaning you'll likely never run. Anyone who's watched a dreadnought, for instance, tie up a squad of bloodletters, knows that having that extra chance to do something would at least make the dreadnought player think twice, even if he does do it in the end. Again, you can build the rest of your army around the tac squads, to see if you really need them, but it's something to be considered more.

Theres always the option of specifically kitting out a squad with obvious weaknesses so that out of three tacticals (for example), only one doesnt have a PF so you can actually plan or set up an ambush on the fact that the wraithlord (or other equivelent) would want to go after that fistless squad.

Voluntary fallback has its own inherent risk - that you will not be able to regroup. It is a last ditch maneuver.

G

Sorry Shane... I had your back for a lot of this thread and then I disappeared. Looks like you are getting a bit ganged up on.

Reecius wrote:I agree, the fist is pure insurance. It makes your opponant think tiwce before charging a tac squad.

And like almost all types of insurance. it is a scam and a rip-off, and best to avoid.

TheBloodGod wrote:You're delusional if you think that one melta makes you a match against tyranids.

I didn't see him say that.

TheBloodGod wrote:You're delusional if you think that 25 points isn't worth the difference between a carnifex with an ordinance weapon dying a turn earlier than otherwise.

Is it 25 points? Or is it 25 points per tactical squad? Bad players tend to let points get away from them with upgrades. When you bring an identical army as your opponent, but he has one more unit than you have. That means he equipped his units more economically, and likely out-built you.

TheBloodGod wrote:You're delusional if you think squads won't already have special weapons.

Deadshane has 75 more points to spend than you do if you run 3x tac marine squads. He'll spend his points on guns.

TheBloodGod wrote:Also, you fail to realize, having a powerfist does not force you to HtH. It is just that WHEN you get charged, you do extra damage, and can combat tactics away afterwords. With moderate luck, 3+ to hit 2+ to wound, you could take away half a dakkafex's wounds in one of your opponent's assault phases. If it's 113 points are 50% dead before your turn even starts, it's a lot more likely you'll be minus one annoying MC later.

I'm not interested in 'moderate luck'. How did you get charged by a dakkafex? He was moving 6" a turn. Did you have a rhino/razorback nearby to wall in/embark? Or did you just not have enough shooting to down him because you've spent way too many points ice-skating uphill?

TheBloodGod wrote:You need to stop arguing that marines Have to be tau. They're WS4 and S4 and I4 by default. This means they don't automatically have to bend over and lift up their skirts to any enemy unit with anything more than S3.

No but they shouldn't receive charges against monstrous creatures because they foolishly believe they have the 'answer'. They can whip crappy troops in CC, and they don't need a fist for that, just a rhino. Everything else, they should just use generalship and appropriate list construction to counter.

The units that end up on my side of the table when i'm playing serious 40k are not the kind of things that a tac squad can handle. tac squads aren't fire warriors... but really thats only because they can beat fire warriors in an assault. When facing nob bikers, blood crushers and assault terminators, I'm sorry, but there isn't really that much of a difference.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I guess if you fell back four times you have a chance at killing the MC with your trusted meltagun.

G

or fall back once with 4 meltaguns nearby.




ultimately, the side that is for power fists never mention their cost, and brings up their obvious ability to 'do' things. A lot of their anecdotes begin with "this one time, I killed x". The people that don't advocate fists just have better memories. For every "this one time..." anecdote, there are 10 games where your tacs never engaged in CC, or where they engaged a pushover unit, or were steamrolled by a true CC unit. The anti-fist crowd is just less distracted by "that one time".

Everything you all say about fists is true to an extent. Except the assumptions that tacs are a CC unit when they have it. Cost is the main issue here. If you say you just want it just in case you get outplayed, and charged by something you didn't want your tacs to be charged by... then maybe you could spend 35 on a rhino instead.

The thing about Deadshane is you never know when he is serious here or just trying to pull the wool over peep's eye for a laugh.

Shep a lot of your counter examples assume all battle conditions are in your favor... like 4 meltaguns nearby... that is a really BIG stretch there. A lot of the time it just ain't so. I play BA and I get a lot of easy wins against vanilla SM simply because I can blast right through their units in cc... even their SC get overwhelmed without sufficient support.

You don't need a power fist in every unit necessarily but it is a good idea to intersperse them amongst your units as a safety mechanism.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:
You don't need a power fist in every unit necessarily but it is a good idea to intersperse them amongst your units as a safety mechanism.

G

I find it a lot harder to argue against statements like that GBF. Not a 'blanket statement'. Implies moderation and sagacity. I think this is an appropriate time for 'agree to disagree'.

Here is a power fist army I just threw together. I have taken elements from other people's ideas.

Pedro Kantor

8x Sternguard/4x combi-melta
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

9x Sternguard/4x combi-melta
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

9x tactical Marine/multi-melta, meltagun
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

Ironclad dreadnaught/assault launchers, 2x HF
drop pod

Ironclad dreadnaught/assault launchers, 2x HF
drop pod

Landspeeder Typhoon/HB

Landspeeder Typhoon/HB

That is right around 1850. Drop one speeder to kick it back to 1750. This list can mow stuff down.

G

Well, except you do need that second Troops unit, even if your Sternguard are scoring units. Oh, and you currently have 4 elites choices.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Here is a power fist army I just threw together. I have taken elements from other people's ideas.

Pedro Kantor

8x Sternguard/4x combi-melta
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

9x Sternguard/4x combi-melta
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

9x tactical Marine/multi-melta, meltagun
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

Ironclad dreadnaught/assault launchers, 2x HF
drop pod

Ironclad dreadnaught/assault launchers, 2x HF
drop pod

Landspeeder Typhoon/HB

Landspeeder Typhoon/HB

That is right around 1850. Drop one speeder to kick it back to 1750. This list can mow stuff down.

G

My list doesn't have a single power fist in it. But I'm not fearing yours at all.

Don't get me wrong... I have sixteen models with strength 8 close combat attacks that ignore armor saves.

I guess its worth mentioning that my anti-fist tirade is closely linked with how i play space marines.

i certainly don't play horde marine gunline. If non drop pod transport vehicles were not heavily featured in a marine list, then i would suppose that they were going to need something. But lists like that aren't very good. they just happened to be very good in 4th edition.

Since vet segeant upgrades became mandatory not spending for something on the sergeant is largely a waste.

Fists are neither all nor nothing, expensive though they are they add a lot of variety to the capability of your basic units if you have the odd one or two.

I dont regret modelling half my sergeants with fists and the rest with power swords, its a versatile combo.

I would rather distribute the power fist than take one pipe hitting assault unit. That is why I like the Pedro list and with the SC all those units become a lot better in close combat.

G

It really depends on what else is in your army and what your using your tacticals for. I can see power fists being worth it for your tactical squads if you will be advancing to taking objectives with to prevent them from being stuck in or killed by a special character or put a wound on a big nasty as people mentioned. In Avariel's case I don't think they are worth it because she is running 10 Terminators with power fists unless she changed her list recently. Its really hard to say without seeing the rest of someone's list.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Here is a power fist army I just threw together. I have taken elements from other people's ideas.

Pedro Kantor

8x Sternguard/4x combi-melta
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

9x Sternguard/4x combi-melta
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

9x tactical Marine/multi-melta, meltagun
Sergeant/power fist
rhino

Ironclad dreadnaught/assault launchers, 2x HF
drop pod

Ironclad dreadnaught/assault launchers, 2x HF
drop pod

Landspeeder Typhoon/HB

Landspeeder Typhoon/HB

That is right around 1850. Drop one speeder to kick it back to 1750. This list can mow stuff down.

G

This army is illegal, 4 Elite Choices and Only 1 Troops Choice. If you wanted to spam power fists terminators are the way to do it.

Okay drop one ironclad for a heavy support. There should be two identical troop choices.

G

The thing about GBF is you never know when he is serious here or just trying to pull the wool over peep's eye for a laugh.


(post that list in defense of P-fists? Yeesh, I rest my case.)

I guess as a chaos player I've got a slightly different perspective, but my standard troops setup is as follows:

10 CSM Icon of Khorne, 2x flamer, Champ w/ fist

10 CSM Icon of Chaos Glory, 2x Melta, fist champ

6 noise marines, 5x sonic blasters, 1x blast master

10 CSM missile launcher plasma gun, icon glory

So for my two "forward" units that are likely to see action, and definitely be something that my opponent wants to fight I've got the fists.

For my two "reserve" units no fists.

For space marines I'd probably put fists into tactical squads with meltas, so I could run two mini-squads close together and have two fists and two meltas ready to fight in tandem.

willydstyle wrote:I guess as a chaos player I've got a slightly different perspective, but my standard troops setup is as follows:

10 CSM Icon of Khorne, 2x flamer, Champ w/ fist

10 CSM Icon of Chaos Glory, 2x Melta, fist champ

6 noise marines, 5x sonic blasters, 1x blast master

10 CSM missile launcher plasma gun, icon glory

So for my two "forward" units that are likely to see action, and definitely be something that my opponent wants to fight I've got the fists.

For my two "reserve" units no fists.

For space marines I'd probably put fists into tactical squads with meltas, so I could run two mini-squads close together and have two fists and two meltas ready to fight in tandem.

....and this is probably a decent way to use fists. 1 on a Berserker unit....(duh, str 9? Yes please), another on a unit that is betting on close combat, no problem.

....leaving the rest of the units a bit more trim utilising their points to the utmost. Not spending 25 pts on a fist "Just in case I get into combat". No, this is pretty much how to do it right.

Fist on every tactical squad however, no way. Tacticals are not close combat troops.

Don't forget: I have to spend 40 points on a fist because the champion's cost is separate, and not already included in the price of the squad.

For loyalists who are already in effect paying for the vet sarge, putting a couple of fists in is not that expensive, and I think still important. Bolt pistols+special weapon+possible combi-weapon+charge w/ fist is a pretty good way to do a lot of damage in one turn, even to tough targets. Those non-fist tactical attacks are still dangerous to a lot of pretty tough targets, quite possibly putting a wound on a monstrous creature before the fist even gets to go.