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Here is my typical BA list:

Dante
2x 5x VAS/3x power fist & meltagun

Corbulo
5x DC - rhino

2x 10x tactical Marine/power fist & meltagun - rhino
10x assault Marine/power fist & plasma pistol - rhino

2x Baal/HB sponsons

So 9 power fists, 3 meltaguns and the two Baals for most of the shooting. I would rather have a meltagun in a rhino or in jump infantry since I can move, shoot and assault. I can't use combat tactics but I don't need them.

Back to the subject of power fists being nerfed in 5th. The krak grenade is good I admit, but the power fist is easier to get the penetration. I have a better chance at catching tanks since my army is mobile. I believe some of the posters here also advocate against the use of transports for their tactical squads... That is another subject in itself really.

I have provided the numbers to show why a squad of ten Marines with a meltagun and power fist is likely to win when charging another tactical squad without a power fist. Let's run through the numbers again:

9 bolt pistol shots, 6 hit, three wound, 1 failed save
1 meltagun shot, 1 hit, 1 unsaved wound
18 close combat attacks, 9 hit, 4 wound, 1 failed save
3 power fist attacks, 1 hits, 1 unsaved wound

So four wounds total (conservative) with two wounds lost in close combat. The enemy squad has six Marines left for seven attacks. Three hit, one wounds and the armor save is passed. Again I was conservative. So the enemy unit loses by two wounds and tests on Ld7. Suppose the choose to fall back using combat tactics. Having lost four models there is a good chance they will lose/both their sergeant and the special weapon or heavy weapon. If they cannot regroup then they cannot fire the heavy weapon. Let's suppose they lost the special weapon but the sergeant survived and can fire his combi melta. 10 rapid fire shots, six hit and three wound with one kill. The sergeant fires his combi and kills another bringing the original unit down to eight Marines. The original unit then fires six bolt pistol shots for four hits, two wounds and we'll assume both saves are made. The meltagun kills another bringing the squad down to five. Now the second charge... 14 close combat attacks for seven hits and three wounds with one failed save. The power fist gets another kill bringing the unit down to three Marines. Their attacks back are six attacks, three hit and one wounds which is saved. As you can see the original squad is superior attriting the other unit over the course of two rounds of close combat. In fact using combat tactics allows the original unit to shoot their pistols again and net the charge bonus.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:
Dante
2x 5x VAS/3x power fist & meltagun

Corbulo
5x DC - rhino

2x 10x tactical Marine/power fist & meltagun - rhino
10x assault Marine/power fist & plasma pistol - rhino

2x Baal/HB sponsons

...and I'm REALLY not trying to start another arguement, but which army looks more rounded and able to take on "all comers"?

That or the army I'm currently building....

HQ
Chapter Master-Jump Pack, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon, Digital Lasers, Artificer Armour
Chaplain-Jump Pack, Plasma Pistol, Digital Weapons
ELITE
Techmarine-Servo Harness, Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon
TROOPS
(10)Tacticals-Melta, Missle Launcher, Sergeant with Power Weapon
(10)Tacticals-Melta, Multi-Melta, Sergeant with Combi-Melta, Rhino
(10)Tacticals-Flamer, Multi-Melta, Sergeant with Combi-Flamer, Rhino
FAST ATTACK
(10)Assault Marines-2xFlamer, Sergeant with Twin Lightning Claws
(3)Attack Bikes-3xHeavy Bolter
HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator-Twin Linked Lascannon, Lascannon Sponsons, Dozer Blade
Predator-Twin Linked Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Dozer Blade
Vindicator-Seige Blade
=1850 even

I out-vehicle you
I out shoot you
You out assault me, but my list is WAY more flexible while not being a 'slouch' as far as CC goes.

What bought that flexibility? Not spending 225 pts on powerfists is a start. I'm not trying to say "my list beats your list" what I'm illustrating is that your list is EXTREMELY 1-dimensional while the list I have here is able to respond to more battlefield situations.

I mean...what happens when you cannot out assault your opponent? Your shooting is dismal because you've spent so many points on power fists. Say you go up against a Tyranid Horde designed for CC with tons of hormagaunts/genestealers and a couple of big bugs that are able to keep your TWO B'aal's from firing using venom? Your list is DEAD....its got nothing for that.

My list is primarily shooting, but against an opponent that out-shoots me (like guard or Tau) I have a respectable HtH game availiable with the assault troops, two characters, a tactical squad with a power weapon, and even a techmarine that can be scary in CC. All that while retaining a powerful shooting game to shut key units down.

THAT's well rounded.

If you want to go with nine powerfists in an army you lock yourself into one way to do battle. Your blood angels may win you games, but in a tournement situation there are SO many armies that can handle a list like yours and laugh. People enjoy building to stop MEQ, and people are generally not that scared of Marine Hand to Hand armies, because they cannot dominate REAL hand to hand armies. Mechanised horde, Tactical horde, and just well built/run marine lists, those are the Marines that demand/earn respect. Spamming powerfists doesnt make marine armies good...marines arent FAST enough int-wise to be good enough in combat, and they arent resiliant enough to outlast opponents in order to use powerfists in the game long-term.

Now, I do understand that this is a Blood Angels list however, and you're pretty much locked in on the mentality that your marines are going to charge because they're bloodthirsty maniacs. Thats the army you chose and that's fine. All I'm really saying here is that spamming powerfists doesnt necessarily make the best armylists out there...and thats the full point of this thread.

As a note, GBF, we are not discussing powerfists in codex:BA. This is only powerfists on tac squads chosen from codex:SM. There is a significant difference between the two armies - tac squads in BA are slightly better at assault than those in codex:SM, hence the powerfist makes more sense. Could you get more/different things for the fist in BA? Probably, but as a special sub-codex it plays by different rules.

BA are all about the assaulting, so no complaints from me about the army being one-dimensional/less tactical than (for instance) Deadshane's. The powerfists are probably better in yours. They're not needed in his.

tzeentchling wrote:As a note, GBF, we are not discussing powerfists in codex:BA. This is only powerfists on tac squads chosen from codex:SM. There is a significant difference between the two armies - tac squads in BA are slightly better at assault than those in codex:SM, hence the powerfist makes more sense. Could you get more/different things for the fist in BA? Probably, but as a special sub-codex it plays by different rules.

BA are all about the assaulting, so no complaints from me about the army being one-dimensional/less tactical than (for instance) Deadshane's. The powerfists are probably better in yours. They're not needed in his.

Absolutly GBF, I had glossed over that point because I was more concerned at the time with spending 225pts on fists.

You DO only have two units in your army that are concerned with this discussion, so in fact the whole point of many powerfists in an army doesnt apply in this case.

I will point out however that the list is still not optimised because I think you're really overlooking the goodness that are Powerweapons charged with Furious Charge....Your vets still have that dont they? Exclusively equipping your powerfists in those vet squads is negating bonuses that you pay points for. Another example of a powerfist possibly not being the best choice. Saving some points, a good idea might be two PW's and a single PF in each squad. That's what I think.

I don't know about that, furious charge or not. One of the problems with being a fast, get in your face army is you run into monstrous creatures alot quickly and only have a turn or two to shoot them. Once injured, the fist dispatches them quickly. A power weapon is nigh worthless. But my point was it plays different, and the context matters.

scuddman wrote:I don't know about that, furious charge or not. One of the problems with being a fast, get in your face army is you run into monstrous creatures alot quickly and only have a turn or two to shoot them. Once injured, the fist dispatches them quickly. A power weapon is nigh worthless. But my point was it plays different, and the context matters.

Against many armies that have troopers however that ARENT MC's, marines, chaos marines, even eldar, a str5 power weapon (that actually gets another attack from a bolt pistol) can be TOTALLY preferable to a powerfist going last with one less attack.

....but Blood Angels arent my cup of tea anyway, so play them how you will.

Seeing his list however makes me understand a bit more why GBF is plugging tons of fists in Vanilla armies....he's in a bloodangel mentality. Tons of fists in a Vanilla marine list might be fine if you going to stick completely to close combat. I however dont see a CC armylist in the marine codex. I see a more toolboxy armylist with shooting as more of a speciality....thats just what I see.

He's all about throwing powerarmour with fists into close combat...if he can win games that way fine, I just dont see it as a good battleplan in this game with scads of genestealers, harlequins, berserkers, daemons, Tyranid warriors, and orks. So many things that are so much better than marines in CC....its no way to get massacres.

Another poster asked if I would post my list. I don't agree with what you have said about BA being a purely assault army. They can be played very similar to codex SM style.

G

tzeentchling wrote:As a note, GBF, we are not discussing powerfists in codex:BA. This is only powerfists on tac squads chosen from codex:SM. There is a significant difference between the two armies - tac squads in BA are slightly better at assault than those in codex:SM, hence the powerfist makes more sense. Could you get more/different things for the fist in BA? Probably, but as a special sub-codex it plays by different rules.

BA are all about the assaulting, so no complaints from me about the army being one-dimensional/less tactical than (for instance) Deadshane's. The powerfists are probably better in yours. They're not needed in his.

I have beaten nob bikers with this list which wouldn't be possible with power weapons.

G

Deadshane1 wrote:

tzeentchling wrote:As a note, GBF, we are not discussing powerfists in codex:BA. This is only powerfists on tac squads chosen from codex:SM. There is a significant difference between the two armies - tac squads in BA are slightly better at assault than those in codex:SM, hence the powerfist makes more sense. Could you get more/different things for the fist in BA? Probably, but as a special sub-codex it plays by different rules.

BA are all about the assaulting, so no complaints from me about the army being one-dimensional/less tactical than (for instance) Deadshane's. The powerfists are probably better in yours. They're not needed in his.

Absolutly GBF, I had glossed over that point because I was more concerned at the time with spending 225pts on fists.

You DO only have two units in your army that are concerned with this discussion, so in fact the whole point of many powerfists in an army doesnt apply in this case.

I will point out however that the list is still not optimised because I think you're really overlooking the goodness that are Powerweapons charged with Furious Charge....Your vets still have that dont they? Exclusively equipping your powerfists in those vet squads is negating bonuses that you pay points for. Another example of a powerfist possibly not being the best choice. Saving some points, a good idea might be two PW's and a single PF in each squad. That's what I think.

I have played my share of shooty SM armies including BA without any power fists in the tactical squads. Obviously you haven't read my posts here or you are trying to put a spin on what I have said. In general I take half my tactical squads with power fists when I play shooty SM lists.

G

Deadshane1 wrote:

scuddman wrote:I don't know about that, furious charge or not. One of the problems with being a fast, get in your face army is you run into monstrous creatures alot quickly and only have a turn or two to shoot them. Once injured, the fist dispatches them quickly. A power weapon is nigh worthless. But my point was it plays different, and the context matters.

Against many armies that have troopers however that ARENT MC's, marines, chaos marines, even eldar, a str5 power weapon (that actually gets another attack from a bolt pistol) can be TOTALLY preferable to a powerfist going last with one less attack.

....but Blood Angels arent my cup of tea anyway, so play them how you will.

Seeing his list however makes me understand a bit more why GBF is plugging tons of fists in Vanilla armies....he's in a bloodangel mentality. Tons of fists in a Vanilla marine list might be fine if you going to stick completely to close combat. I however dont see a CC armylist in the marine codex. I see a more toolboxy armylist with shooting as more of a speciality....thats just what I see.

He's all about throwing powerarmour with fists into close combat...if he can win games that way fine, I just dont see it as a good battleplan in this game with scads of genestealers, harlequins, berserkers, daemons, Tyranid warriors, and orks. So many things that are so much better than marines in CC....its no way to get massacres.

i think ill stick with 1-2 fists in an army, seems like a waste for something that can be done with las or missiles.

but with my ork, even suggesting to not take klaws is heresy!