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lord_blackfang wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:
I try not to play the most powerful army. I could hit the "Easy Button" and play Iron Warriors in 3rd and 4th edition, Chaos with 2 lashes and 9 Oblits, or Orks. I choose not to.

Looking at your old posts I see you were going to take 1 Lash and 9 Obliterators to Adepticon 08. But then you decided to just go with Eldard, Avatar, Harlies and only 2 super-Falcons. Good job holding back and not hitting the Easy Button. I assume you used to play IW with only 3 pie-plates and 6 Oblits?

That army came about because everyone was playing a cookie-cutter eldar armies, and they were saying how guardians sucked. I was trying to make an army around them and try to figure out a way to make them work. Also you pointed out about 900 points, the other 850 was not that good. I took 6 Harlequins after I could not get banshees to work for me, and I took 2 falcons after I found out that 1 falcon and 2 Fire Prisms could not beat Godzilla Nids. I guess I should have only taken Shining Spears, but I could have made that army a lot harder than I did.

And just as an FYI, am am playing Eldar this year.

why didn't Orks win at the first event of the year, conquest ?

1. the games were only 2 hours long for 1850
2. the nob biker list met my 50 khorne berzerker and 2 lash sorcerer list and got destroyed.
3. the other ork lists attending were not that good.

if a Parker or a Mike munchkin or even a sparks, well not sparks, showed up they would have probally won.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Still, I kind of laugh at all the complaints against Orks in 40k v5. If you guys think that 40k is imbalanced you should take a look at WHFB right now.

Ain't that the truth. I don't play WFB much, but I've seen some of the tournament results, and they're fairly appalling. It really goes to show you how a few overpowered army books can really mess up a game system. Who could have predicted two years ago that 40K would end up being the better game in terms of balance?

Anyway, back on topic. IMO, Orks are and will likely stay really good, although they've probably hit their high water mark already. I think CSMs -- although mostly cookie-cutter -- are also quite good. IG could also change things, although I have a gut feeling they'll end up underwhelming. Tyranids may see a new codex within a year, if some of the rumors are true, and that could also change the metagame. I'd look for Tyranid hordes to come back in a major way, since they'll almost certainly nerf Nidzilla and boost all the horde-related elements. You know it's going to be the usual massive pendulum swing.

I give Phil Kelly more of a pass than some regarding the Ork book. If a codex had to be overpowered, Orks are a better choice than some lame-a$$ flavor of SM. At least it shakes up the metagame. Also, I think the Ork codex is just plain more fun than most. I see so much more imagination and more possibilities there than with the CSM or Daemon books. I like the Daemon fluff...but when I get to the army list, it puts me to sleep, even if the builds are quite strong.

Frazzled wrote:Maybe this is a better question. How do lists tailored with a greater emphasis on fighting orks do against other armies? If the IG codex is similarly powerful the dreaded metagame may begin to shift to a non-MEQ standard.

Depends on the list really. The problem is to effectively counter orks, you need to be two things in 5th ed. Anti-Horde, and mobile.

Properly constructed Ork armies are simply PITA to defeat. I played a game this past weekend where I killed 180+ orks with my daemons, and still lost.

skkipper wrote:why didn't Orks win at the first event of the year, conquest ?

1. the games were only 2 hours long for 1850
2. the nob biker list met my 50 khorne berzerker and 2 lash sorcerer list and got destroyed.
3. the other ork lists attending were not that good.

if a Parker or a Mike munchkin or even a sparks, well not sparks, showed up they would have probally won.

So here is a case of it being the player not the book then right? Which doesn't make the book broken just good. I thought the point of what a lot of the guys here were saying was that orks are an I win button. As for 2 hour games i field 100 gaunts in my armies and finish most games in under 2 hours. The speed of 40k has gone way up since the new edition. I personally think that 2 hours is fine for anything under 2k.

All of it doesn't change the fact that Orks didn't place at the first GT. I agree w/GBF (god help me) that the Orks will probably only take about 1/2 the events this year and thats only if the good players run them.

Let's be totally clear though: If Orks take half the events this year then they "are really that good". When 1 out of 11 (are there 11 dexes, more, less? Not sure) codexes wins 5 out of 10 tournaments its clearly dominant, (unless the others are all won by 1 other dex).

My personal theory is that the current top tier is Orks, Daemons, CSM. Orks are the strongest of the three, though. I'd be surprised if any list that isn't one of those 3 wins more than one big event this year.

that was 2 hours from table asignment. most people where still moving when the go button was hit.
250 models doing something that takes 5 seconds each turn
5 turns + setup= 6 turns

6*250*5= equal 2 hours and 5 minutes. the 2 hours was too short.

it does show that any player cannot bring orks and win it all.

BigToof wrote:While I hear a lot of wailing and nashing of teeth, nobody seems to be able to point to the one thing that over the top. Depending on who's making the comments, it's the Nob Bikers, or the Lootas, or the masses of ork boyz, or whatever is the local beat stick. There's a lot of cool stuff in the ork list which makes it very nice, but it can also also be beaten. There is nothing which is so uber that there isn't a counter for every army in the game. I honestly think it's just the usual new codex bitching.

It's not any particular unit. Its the advent of 5th edition and the cover saves that Orks now get. This gave Orks a huge boost to a codex balanced for 4th edition. The real fix is to slightly increase the points values to more accurately reflect the orks capabilities.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there ChaosDave. The Ork codex was in no way balanced whatsoever in 4th Edition.

It was a beefcake then and it's a beefcake now.

5th Edition made it better since you went from:

Shooty Horde
4th Edition: 5+ Cover save for all your boyz provided by an Untargetable Big Mek not attached to any squad.

5th Edition: 4+ Cover save provided by other units, who themselves will probably only have a 5+ Cover save thanks to a KFF, though this can vary based on lists.

Nob Bikers
4th Edition: Nob Bikers were an expensive point sink.

5th Edition: Nob Bikers became a ridiculous unit where you can take 10 wounds and not lose a single model, and the new rules ensure that all Nobz will be engaged even when assaulted, ensuring Klaws will get their jobs done.

ChaosDave wrote:

BigToof wrote:While I hear a lot of wailing and nashing of teeth, nobody seems to be able to point to the one thing that over the top. Depending on who's making the comments, it's the Nob Bikers, or the Lootas, or the masses of ork boyz, or whatever is the local beat stick. There's a lot of cool stuff in the ork list which makes it very nice, but it can also also be beaten. There is nothing which is so uber that there isn't a counter for every army in the game. I honestly think it's just the usual new codex bitching.

It's not any particular unit. Its the advent of 5th edition and the cover saves that Orks now get. This gave Orks a huge boost to a codex balanced for 4th edition. The real fix is to slightly increase the points values to more accurately reflect the orks capabilities.

Or down play the cover saves.

Or, *gasp* flank all the units that people are using to give cover saves to their orks. I've had this happen with a number of good players, it's really not that hard. If the ork player wants to come across the board at you, run around him, and shoot the sh!t outta his boyz. ALL orks die really quickly once you start double tapping small arms into them. Which is the reason why "I can't design a anti MEQ AND a anti-Horde" thing is BS. Almost all armies feature basic riflemen of some sort as troops.

Orks may be a bit undercosted, I can see arguments for that.

BigToof wrote:

ChaosDave wrote:

BigToof wrote:While I hear a lot of wailing and nashing of teeth, nobody seems to be able to point to the one thing that over the top. Depending on who's making the comments, it's the Nob Bikers, or the Lootas, or the masses of ork boyz, or whatever is the local beat stick. There's a lot of cool stuff in the ork list which makes it very nice, but it can also also be beaten. There is nothing which is so uber that there isn't a counter for every army in the game. I honestly think it's just the usual new codex bitching.

It's not any particular unit. Its the advent of 5th edition and the cover saves that Orks now get. This gave Orks a huge boost to a codex balanced for 4th edition. The real fix is to slightly increase the points values to more accurately reflect the orks capabilities.

Or down play the cover saves.

Or, *gasp* flank all the units that people are using to give cover saves to their orks. I've had this happen with a number of good players, it's really not that hard. If the ork player wants to come across the board at you, run around him, and shoot the sh!t outta his boyz. ALL orks die really quickly once you start double tapping small arms into them. Which is the reason why "I can't design a anti MEQ AND a anti-Horde" thing is BS. Almost all armies feature basic riflemen of some sort as troops.

Orks may be a bit undercosted, I can see arguments for that.

10 Space Marines double tapping Bolters into a unit of Orks will yield:

20 Shots
13.33 Hits
6.66 Wounds

If the Ork player is smart and has KFF Big Mek (or two) providing "always on" cover saves for the Boyz who are up front, it should cover their boyz should they be "flanked" where they don't have other Boyz giving them a 4+ cover save.

So if he has that, you kill 4.44 orks, or lets say 5.

Still, you've moved up and at best (assuming no KFF, which is generous) you'll kill around 7 Orks.

In a Mob of Shootas, you will then get shot in return, charged, and killed.

The problem with "horde Orks" is that there are usually 3-4 big Mobs of 30. It's very hard to kill one unit of 30, let alone 4 of them, and deal with the Lootas + other support.

5th Edition: Nob Bikers became a ridiculous unit where you can take 10 wounds and not lose a single model, and the new rules ensure that all Nobz will be engaged even when assaulted, ensuring Klaws will get their jobs done.

great, apart from every army has atleast 1 unit to kill them with ease, klaws arent that good, since they strike last you have a chance to cut the numbers down before they get to fight back.

against biker nob units ive started to use a unit of 8 bloodcrushers with skulltaker on jugger.
around the same cost as the nob bikers, and easily beats them, without taking much damage in return.

JD21290 wrote:

5th Edition: Nob Bikers became a ridiculous unit where you can take 10 wounds and not lose a single model, and the new rules ensure that all Nobz will be engaged even when assaulted, ensuring Klaws will get their jobs done.

great, apart from every army has atleast 1 unit to kill them with ease, klaws arent that good, since they strike last you have a chance to cut the numbers down before they get to fight back.

against biker nob units ive started to use a unit of 8 bloodcrushers with skulltaker on jugger.
around the same cost as the nob bikers, and easily beats them, without taking much damage in return.

Oh point taken, there are ways to kill them, but they are still an absolutely ridiculous unit.

I don't see it as very much different from the situation we had in 4th Ed though.

Mech Eldar, Godzilla Nids. They dominated, you had to build to beat them or you might as well not bother.

Sure they could lose, there were some armies/builds that out and out countered them specifically (Necrons could screw over Mech Eldar real well); but the armies were still ridiculous and obviously "top tier".

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

BigToof wrote:

ChaosDave wrote:

BigToof wrote:While I hear a lot of wailing and nashing of teeth, nobody seems to be able to point to the one thing that over the top. Depending on who's making the comments, it's the Nob Bikers, or the Lootas, or the masses of ork boyz, or whatever is the local beat stick. There's a lot of cool stuff in the ork list which makes it very nice, but it can also also be beaten. There is nothing which is so uber that there isn't a counter for every army in the game. I honestly think it's just the usual new codex bitching.

It's not any particular unit. Its the advent of 5th edition and the cover saves that Orks now get. This gave Orks a huge boost to a codex balanced for 4th edition. The real fix is to slightly increase the points values to more accurately reflect the orks capabilities.

Or down play the cover saves.

Or, *gasp* flank all the units that people are using to give cover saves to their orks. I've had this happen with a number of good players, it's really not that hard. If the ork player wants to come across the board at you, run around him, and shoot the sh!t outta his boyz. ALL orks die really quickly once you start double tapping small arms into them. Which is the reason why "I can't design a anti MEQ AND a anti-Horde" thing is BS. Almost all armies feature basic riflemen of some sort as troops.

Orks may be a bit undercosted, I can see arguments for that.

10 Space Marines double tapping Bolters into a unit of Orks will yield:

20 Shots
13.33 Hits
6.66 Wounds

If the Ork player is smart and has KFF Big Mek (or two) providing "always on" cover saves for the Boyz who are up front, it should cover their boyz should they be "flanked" where they don't have other Boyz giving them a 4+ cover save.

So if he has that, you kill 4.44 orks, or lets say 5.

Still, you've moved up and at best (assuming no KFF, which is generous) you'll kill around 7 Orks.

In a Mob of Shootas, you will then get shot in return, charged, and killed.

The problem with "horde Orks" is that there are usually 3-4 big Mobs of 30. It's very hard to kill one unit of 30, let alone 4 of them, and deal with the Lootas + other support.

Right, but you're ignoring the shots that the marines are going to get at long range.
10 Shots
6.66 Hits
3.33 Wounds
Added to the 7 wounds before, and you've got the mob down about 10 models. However this is also ignoring the missile launcher + flamer. It's also a comparison of 125 points of marines against 125 points of orks, which is about enough for 20 boyz w/o a nob. You add in the nob + PK + heavy weapons, and the numbers become even more interesting.

30 boyz + Nob with PK + 3 RL = 275 points, which is enough for 2 tac squads + some toys for the marines.

So, 20 shots at range
13.33 hits
6.66 wounds

Assume boyz run.

40 double tap shots
26.666 hits
13 wounds

All this is ignoring all the damage that the missile launcher frag template will do at range + the flamer at double tap range. Just as a guess, you've got a half strength ork mob going into a potentially untouched group of marines. If the boyz shoot, the numbers are a little better, but the charge is much less impressive. The boyz really need to out number people to win combats, particular against marines who will wear them down after the initial charge.

Anyway, so much for mathhammer.

Oh, and I don't consider a missile launcher to be anti-horde, it's a general, all around weapon that a lot of people seem to have forgotten about in the rush to las-plas.

voodoo, dont forget that nob bikerz are a huge point sink (hence why i wont take them)
so it means you wont be facing an ork horde as such since atleast 25% or so of points go into a single unit.

BigToof wrote:
Right, but you're ignoring the shots that the marines are going to get at long range.
10 Shots
6.66 Hits
3.33 Wounds
Added to the 7 wounds before, and you've got the mob down about 10 models. However this is also ignoring the missile launcher + flamer. It's also a comparison of 125 points of marines against 125 points of orks, which is about enough for 20 boyz w/o a nob. You add in the nob + PK + heavy weapons, and the numbers become even more interesting.

30 boyz + Nob with PK + 3 RL = 275 points, which is enough for 2 tac squads + some toys for the marines.

So, 20 shots at range
13.33 hits
6.66 wounds

Assume boyz run.

40 double tap shots
26.666 hits
13 wounds

All this is ignoring all the damage that the missile launcher frag template will do at range + the flamer at double tap range. Just as a guess, you've got a half strength ork mob going into a potentially untouched group of marines. If the boyz shoot, the numbers are a little better, but the charge is much less impressive. The boyz really need to out number people to win combats, particular against marines who will wear them down after the initial charge.

Anyway, so much for mathhammer.

Oh, and I don't consider a missile launcher to be anti-horde, it's a general, all around weapon that a lot of people seem to have forgotten about in the rush to las-plas.

2 Squads of vanilla marines is 340 points. So to get close to the 275 mark it would be 1 full squad with flamer+ missile and 1 combat squad with just bolters and nothing else.

First off, 30 Boyz w/ Shootas, Nob + PK & Boss Pole + 3 Rokkits = 250 Points.

10 Space Marines with Flamer & Missile Launcher = 170 Points.

So it's not enough for 2 whole squads.

That's the whole problem. You're not getting 20 SM's to every 30 Orks.

Compare whole armies and the Orks greater numbers becomes even more of a force multiplier. They can absorb more casualties than the marines while still putting out a proportionally higher amount of firepower.

Your statement was that you can double tap the Orks, from the flank to deny them Cover Saves, as if that was some kind of solution to the problem.

It's not. My statement is that 10 BS4 Models firing S4 guns in Rapid Fire will kill 6-7 Orks if there's no KFF, or 4-5 Orks if they are getting a KFF save (likely).

If you're talking about having a stand still fire-fight, then the Orks are getting a 5+ Cover or even a 4+ cover (if using a Kan Wall to generate 4+ cover for all Mobs), and they're firing back and doing proportionally more damage to you than you are to them.

JD21290 wrote:voodoo, dont forget that nob bikerz are a huge point sink (hence why i wont take them)
so it means you wont be facing an ork horde as such since atleast 25% or so of points go into a single unit.

I agree 100%. Thankfully, you're not going to fight something that's a Horde + Nob bikers, but the problem is that you sort of have to be ready for either or; because the presence of either list will generally ruin your day at a tourney.

Still though, how is this any different than 4th Edition where you had to account for Mech Eldar & Godzilla Nids? Two distinct Power Builds (though you generally needed the same kinds of tools to deal with either), just from two different codex's. So two big power builds for 5th Ed come from the same codex, but are also very distinct.

I guess the issue is that you need very different tools to stop one over the other.

While the Skulltaker/Crusher unit is great against Bikers, I would think it'd find a hard ass time against a Shooty Horde, since they have to Deepstrike In, and then take a round of shooting before being able to charge.

just some randomness here, but tau actually fare very well at shooting ork before they can get into combat.

i allways take a solid base of 2 units of 10 man FW's.

20 shots a turn
10 hits
7 ish wounds

14 if in RF range.

its not the best with just basic troops, but even they can cut down an ork horde well.
but mix that with constant fire with 2 railheads, stealth teams burst cannons.
3 broads should be used for killing transport or biker nob.
the basic FW can kill anything in an ork army (except a battle wagon)

crisis teams can add to the anti horde with flamers and burst, using movement to thier advantage each turn.




voodoo with 30 shoota boyz i would take BS's instead of rokkitz


Edit: spelling

While the Skulltaker/Crusher unit is great against Bikers, I would think it'd find a hard ass time against a Shooty Horde, since they have to Deepstrike In, and then take a round of shooting before being able to charge.

you dont drop them in the open, make use of cover
3+ save and a 5+ inv. save with that means small arms fire will do little or nothing.

once they get into combat they will kill anything they can swing a hellblade at.

JD21290 wrote:just some randomness here, but tau actually fare very well at shooting ork before they can get into combat.

i allways take a solid base of 2 units of 10 man FW's.

20 shots a turn
10 hits
7 ish wounds

14 if in RF range.

its not the best with just basic troops, but even they can cut down an ork horde well.
but mix that with constant fire with 2 railheads, stealth teams burst cannons.
3 broads should be used for killing transport or biker nob.
the basic FW can kill anything in an ork army (except a battle wagon)

crisis teams can add to the anti horde with flamers and burst, using movement to thier advantage each turn.




voodoo with 30 shoota boyz i would take BS's instead of rokkitz


Edit: spelling

It's been a long time since I've really put 40k into practice, so when I was playing (mostly 4th with a little bit of 5th); it was that squad config.

Seriously though, I think you're right in that the Tau can kick some serious Horde Ork ass. Markerlights, Markerlights, Markerlights! 3 markerlights = No 4+ Cover for a single unit, then that unit gets hit with railhead submunitions...and then every other shot in the army.

Problem is can Tau deal with Nob Bikers, and at the same time, deal with other lists? I dunno.

yes, nob bikers are easy points for tau.

broadsides, plasma rifles, missile pods, flamers, and even a railhead if your bored.


tau can muster enough fire power to table any army in a solid fire fight.

against ork its just a case of removing thier mobility 1st, leaving them to footslog into a solid wall of rounds from everything your tau can fire, while making sure they dont get any cover saves at the same time.

also, allweapons and units i have just said are very common in tau armies, so yes, they are able to deal with other armies.


as funny as it sounds, the only army ive found that can out shoot tau are nids
fire warriors are great right? what happens when they take 3 pie plates a turn from fex's?
or 6 if your going for a 6 fex army.

without number gaunts give them a constant threat to deal with, while warriors add to the fire with death spitters and another strangler per unit.

JD21290 wrote:

While the Skulltaker/Crusher unit is great against Bikers, I would think it'd find a hard ass time against a Shooty Horde, since they have to Deepstrike In, and then take a round of shooting before being able to charge.

you dont drop them in the open, make use of cover
3+ save and a 5+ inv. save with that means small arms fire will do little or nothing.

once they get into combat they will kill anything they can swing a hellblade at.

Here's where I disagree with you.

Orks don't care about your cover save. Most shooting will give you a 4+ Cover save already as they're shooting through their own units.

Lootas are AP4
Shootas are AP6

You're T5, 2W, and a 3+ Save.

You will get shot by every model that can move and get into range, and most specifically be a prime target for Loota Fire which will put a hurting on the unit.

Granted you will probably not be eliminated through that fire (or the Orks will have to suck up other charges from other units, etc), but you will likely kill a Mob and go through that process again.

I think my point here is that while Crushers can hurt you some Nob Bikers, that's one unit from one army that can come in and do some damage. Against the Horde, they're certainly not all that optimal and will see far less success than they will against the Bikers.

and then they have done thier job voodoo
you dont expect 1 unit to beat an entire army do you?

i like:

skull taker + 8 crushers
herald + 8 crushers

so thats 2 units they have to deal with, while having letters and DP's dropped around them and charging in, and thats while a unit of 20 horrors is throwing 60 shots per turn at da boyz

Actually, the unit he's describing (Skulltaker on a juggernaut + 8 Crushers) is going to murder any single unit in the ork codex. But then again, it's not exactly a shining example of a friendly blanaced unit either.

And for all those people who are saying they can "easily deal with nob bikers" or that "nob bikers are a huge point sink"...sigh.

cent, i love crushers due to thier ability to absord fire while dealing death to anything and everything, i have used them against a unit of biker nobz, and it was over in 1 turn, so i value them for it.

i only say bikers are a points sink as that is how i see them, i am yet to use them, but i dont like losing that many points, i rather have a mixed armoured army with alot of mobility and not have to rely on a single unit to do serious damage.

Here is my daemon list. It is balanced and can butcher nob bikers:

Bloodthirster/Unholy Might

Skulltaker on juggernaught
5x Bloodcrushers/Icon
6x Bloodcrushers/Icon

12x Bloodletters
12x Bloodletters
12x Bloodletters

2x Soul grinder

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Here is my daemon list. It is balanced and can butcher nob bikers:

Bloodthirster/Unholy Might

Skulltaker on juggernaught
5x Bloodcrushers/Icon
6x Bloodcrushers/Icon

12x Bloodletters
12x Bloodletters
12x Bloodletters

G

you have no shooting so the nob bikers should just run away from you and dakka gun you to death.

60 dakka gun shoots 33 hits 22 wounds 1 dead blood letter squad. or 16 wounds and 3 dead blood crushers or 11 wounds and 1 dead bloodthirster. or park your bikes in or behind cover to swing before the khorne units.
I just don't see how you beat a nob biker list with this list.

so sould grinders can no longer shoot? o.o

and dakka guns are great on bikes, and you plan on keeping them away from all units the whole game?

with daemons falling from the sky this isnt possible.

all it takes is for 1 unit of letters to drag them into combat, either the letters will kill them, or a near by unit will do once that also charges in.