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Green Blow Fly wrote:Here is my daemon list. It is balanced and can butcher nob bikers:

Bloodthirster/Unholy Might

Skulltaker on juggernaught
5x Bloodcrushers/Icon
6x Bloodcrushers/Icon

12x Bloodletters
12x Bloodletters
12x Bloodletters

2x Soul grinder

G

I've been told that inclusion of 2 squads of bloodcrushers is unbalancing.

Aside from that I've said many a time that Bloodcrushers are the ultimate answer to nob bikers.

There are 2x grinders.

G

cent, i think crushers are the answer to most things

and whats unbalanced about them lol, ultimate killing machines (no pun intended)

If Cent said it I believe it.

G

just a side note, but expensive model, amazing at killing any and everything, unit size of 8 max.

think GW knew they would be used alot hence the price and large unit size? lol

Voodoo Boyz wrote:First off, 30 Boyz w/ Shootas, Nob + PK & Boss Pole + 3 Rokkits = 250 Points.

10 Space Marines with Flamer & Missile Launcher = 170 Points.

So it's not enough for 2 whole squads.

Sorry doing this from memory. That's still 250 points, vs 170. The "They charge you, and then your dead thing" is interesting too, because if you're on a flank, the last thing that a ork wants to do is waste a bunch of time running boyz away from the main action. Running helps some, but you're still looking at a turn or two to cross the board. If you waste another turn or two dealing with a smaller unit, you're wasting 250 v 170 points. You also either move out from under the KFF or waste one of two potential 85 point KFF, taking the total to 335 points used to take out 170 points. Finally, there's the physical space taken up on a table by 30 orks, which is NOT small. So if this is your first unit, that means you've got another unit 6-8 behind this one, or you're bunched as hell for template weapons. If you leave them alone, they can continue to snipe at you, taking down several orks a turn.

This is all sort of a best case too, since in non-tournament play any decent marine player is going to bring pie, lots of cheap pie from the Whirlwind, which is going to kill far more than 85 points worth of models.

That's the whole problem. You're not getting 20 SM's to every 30 Orks.

Could be. You can get ~15 space marines to 30 orks.

Compare whole armies and the Orks greater numbers becomes even more of a force multiplier. They can absorb more casualties than the marines while still putting out a proportionally higher amount of firepower.

Yes, but it's a diffused force, while marines are much more concentrated. Which means that MEQs aren't dealing with the logistical problems inherent in having a line of models stretching out 12-18" x 6-8". By moving to the flank, you turn that disadvantage against them, since by the time you deal with the length of your line of shoota boyz + the distance between the squads, you're going to have models that are out of range. Not so the space marine player. He's going to have more models in range that will be able to hit harder per model, which is where the mathhammer starts to fall apart.

Honestly, the people who have issues with the Orks could be correct, it could be that they're now a bit too cheap, and should be a point or two more expensive.

I just don't see any particular unit as being completely unstoppable, or any unit being without some sort of counter. So to me it's not a broken force. Arguing that a overall force is too cheap is a really hard question to answer because there are SO many possible builds with the dex. It also seems that the GT scene causes the worst abuses to come to the surface, which makes me glad that I don't have to deal with that level of munchinism. Just doesn't sound like a lot of fun. At the end of the day, it's a game, which features a bunch of little models of Orks, Elves, and Undead in space!

Heavy bolters are nigh useless against Orks. You're much better off with Missile Launchers. 48" range to peg Lootas, S8 to plink at armour and insta-kill nob bikers, a template against hordes. That said, Missile Launchers are just the best of a bad bunch. You cannot kill Orks in the shooting phase - there's too many of them and cover is too easy to come by. You have to kill them in the Assault phase, where chaining assaults and "No Retreat!" kills lots of them.

The problem is most armies don't have a unit that can solidly beat Orks in close combat - you really need Khorne. CSM have Khorne Berserkers, Daemons have Flesh Hounds and Bloodcrushers (Also Fiends which are super-Flesh Hounds in disguise). So those are the armies to beat Khorne (Daemons have the advantage of being able to kill Nob Bikers too, if they can catch them).

Striking Scorpions are theoretically good at killing Orks if they can catch them, and Assault terminators can work with Cassius and mix of thunder hammers (to soak PK hits) and lightning claws (to do the killing). They need to hide in a land raider until ready, of course.

I don't really care about Nob Bikers, becuse of the comp environment here they won't see play. The problem is that what would be a middle of the road fluffy list for any other army is over the top for Orks - it's hard to do a genuinely bad build (I made a random ork army generation table and it still pumped out playable lists. Yeah, Orks have bad units like Flash Gits and Looted Wagons and uuuuh..... did I allready say Flash Gits? and Flash Gits.)

Neil wrote:Yeah, Orks have bad units like Flash Gits and Looted Wagons and uuuuh..... did I allready say Flash Gits? and Flash Gits.)

Oddly enough I think those are both good units. And who says that any army needs bad ones to be fair?

I also don't think that anybody thinks that they're going to destory orks during the shooting phase, unless it's IG. Instead the strategy is to shoot them up, and then charge what's left. Orks need superiour numbers to triumph in combat. Losing 10-15 orks going across the table can really ruin a mob.

BigToof wrote:Instead the strategy is to shoot them up, and then charge what's left.

I'm pretty sure that with all the shooting in the world, my FCW are not gonna be charging Orks.

It looks to me that most people here agrees that the new orks are VERY hard and good but not unbeatable.
Bring a list that is styled for a horde army and the game can swing both ways.

It bolis down to that people have to accept that our hobby is taking another direction now. You can no longer
build an army (unless it orks ) and hope to win or fight equally with all other armies out there.
In WH40K now days you are forced to use TATICS, keep extra models and research other armies to be able to
fight a fair fight.

My Blood Angel army is an example. I have made sure that I have plenty of spare models to choose from so that
I can construct a list perfect for my opponent, and for me, that is half of the fun with the hobby


//Edge

Thats all fine and dandy, but in a tournement situation (which is really what this thread is about) you cannot tailor your army to any particular opponent.

Therin lies the problem.

Your basic "Take all comers" list that you typically run for a tournement has almost if not ZERO chance of beating an Ork army (bikernobs specifically) run by a Savvy General.

Tactics frequently come up short when 2 Warbosses and 20 Nobs on bikes turboboost up into your face on turn 1 ...and you made the mistake of bringing a "take all comers" list that isnt specifically designed with Bikernobs in mind.










...here it comes, someone is about to say "just shoot them" or "just charge them" and not really know what they're talking about.

I think my 'nids list is an excellent take all comers list that would be capable of taking on a nob biker list. That being said I can see how a lot of could have issues building a take all comers list but off the top of my head i can make a take all comers list that can compete w/a nob biker list with:

1) Marines
2) Tyrannids
3) Sisters of Battle
4) Tau

Granted those are armies who in my opinion could build a take all comers list capable of dealing with orks.

I'm not going to state tactics. It's much more complex than just shoot or charge them. It's based around deployment, terrain, proper movement, and several other factors. That doesn't mean you have to custom build a list to beat nobz. Just take them into consideration while building you list and weigh you options like you do when you consider facing 'Nidzilla, lash/oblit spam, bloodcrushers+Kairos, LR+Termy spam and all the other power builds out there.

The discussion appears to be drawn into two camps, both of which actually agree with each other but are largely quibbling semantics. Firstly, there is no disagreement on a very fundamental point: Orks are beatable. No one appears to be of the belief that Flash Gits have `Da Winna' among their upgrades, available for 30pts to win any game on the roll of a 2+. Rerollable for an additional 10pts. The main argument appears to be on the specifics of how they are beaten. Bloodcrushers stomp Nob Bikers, massed Heavy Bolters and Whirlwinds chew up Hoard Orks, Tau can outshoot any Orks... plenty of examples have been provided. Examples of how a particular list can beat another particular list. There have also been scenario examples, where a particular army can win by getting into a particular situation with the Orks. Unfortunately, suggestions like this are largely meaningless, as any good player would know that, for example, Lootas are better shooting than being assaulted, and do their best to avoid these scenarios. 40K is very much a standard strategy game in this regard: I know what you want to do, because I know what I do not want you doing, so I have to stop you from doing that while still doing what I want to do. Yes, that is every strategy game ever created summed up in a sentence!

The other camp is firmly asserting that, yes, these lists can beat those lists. Their problem is not that Orks cannot be beaten, for, as I asserted at the beginning, we all agree on this point. This camp offers the complaint that Orks can only be beaten if you do tool for them, and doing so leaves your list completely unable to handle most, if not all, other lists. We must also take into account that `Orks' are the army, but they have several highly viable, and fundamentally different, lists. A list that effectively counters Nob Bikers may find itself swamped by Hoard Orks, as a simple example. Indeed, Orks are not imbalanced due to a low concentration of poor units. No army should have poor units, so that should not be a consideration. The strength of the Orks is in the large number of highly effective units they can field. Add to this that the lists they can form are fundamentally different from every other list in the game. A list that can handle MEQ, Mech and non-Ork Hoard may find itself completely incapable of handling many, or even all, competitive Ork lists. There is also the yet-unanswered question of whether every army can put together a viable answer to the Ork lists. The fundamental question, however, is whether or not it is possible for many (any?) armies to field a balanced army that can have a hope of winning against MEQ, Mech, non-Ork Hoard and the various Ork lists. The holy grail, as it were; a list where the superior general (who has a spot of luck his way) should win, no matter what his inferior opponents put on the table.

To summarise the thread so far, Rock can beat Scissors, but Paper screams cheese because it has been able to put up a fair fight against Rock, but now cannot decide whether to fight Rock or Scissors. Paper is unable to put up a fight against both, and whichever it chooses to beat, the other will surely defeat it.

I agree with the solution of taking more Khorne Berserkers. I play a mech Khorne CSM army, and it's pretty much the bane of orks. I can usually get charges against foot-slogging orks, and the guys in trukks don't have large enough squad sizes to take on the berserkers. Nob-bikers can be tricky, but it's usually easy to predict what they'll do. If I can get two berserker squads in combat per nob-biker squad, (And the two squads of 'zerks in rhinos is STILL less than a full nob biker unit) it's usually enough to put the serious hurt on the bikes. Berserkers are also wonderful anti-MEQ.... Now mech eldar can get a little tricky.

Deadshane1 wrote:
...here it comes, someone is about to say "just shoot them" or "just charge them" and not really know what they're talking about.

I'm pretty sure that you just summarized the pro-Ork argument.

Deadshane1 wrote:Thats all fine and dandy, but in a tournement situation (which is really what this thread is about) you cannot tailor your army to any particular opponent.

Actually, if you read the OP the question was "Is it possible to defeat orks?" GW has made it clear that the tourney scene is not what they're designing for, and frankly I don't blame them. It really doesn't sound like any fun.

Therin lies the problem.

Your basic "Take all comers" list that you typically run for a tournement has almost if not ZERO chance of beating an Ork army (bikernobs specifically) run by a Savvy General.

Right....... I think a number of people have posted situations where a take all comers list can beat orks.

Tactics frequently come up short when 2 Warbosses and 20 Nobs on bikes turboboost up into your face on turn 1 ...and you made the mistake of bringing a "take all comers" list that isnt specifically designed with Bikernobs in mind.

If the other guy wants to put over 1000 points (w/o toys) into two units + 2 HQ (22 models) and run it right in front of your army, and you can't do something about it, you've got another problem. I've faced nob biker lists at tourneys, and won, frankly they don't scare me.

Deadshane1 wrote:Thats all fine and dandy, but in a tournement situation (which is really what this thread is about) you cannot tailor your army to any particular opponent.

Therin lies the problem.

Your basic "Take all comers" list that you typically run for a tournement has almost if not ZERO chance of beating an Ork army (bikernobs specifically) run by a Savvy General.

Tactics frequently come up short when 2 Warbosses and 20 Nobs on bikes turboboost up into your face on turn 1 ...and you made the mistake of bringing a "take all comers" list that isnt specifically designed with Bikernobs in mind.










...here it comes, someone is about to say "just shoot them" or "just charge them" and not really know what they're talking about.

OK Shane, see your point. It just seemed like we were discussing orks in general... from time to time atleast

I am beginning on my Dark Eldar army, and i really see alot of potential in them taking out orks:

1) standard weapons have atleast an AP of 5.

2) Dark lances can eliminate characters and the majority of their vehicles.

3)It ultimately depends on who gets the first turn. If Dark Eldar do, then the orks are screwed, and vice versa.

BigToof wrote:Actually, if you read the OP the question was "Is it possible to defeat orks?" GW has made it clear that the tourney scene is not what they're designing for, and frankly I don't blame them. It really doesn't sound like any fun.

Actually, the question was more `what is the problem?'. While there are plenty of examples readily available of Orks having lost (I have seen it with my own eyes too!), there is a general perception out there that Orks are `broken' and stupidly over-powered, or that even an inferior Ork player can win easily. The question was `are they really that good?'. In other words, is the perception about them being game breaking accurate, or are people slow to adapt their perceptions to realise that Orks are in fact merely `different' and they will become as `weak' as everyone else once people see the chinks in their armour.

We've run this topic into the ground. The rusty spoons are near.

Okay, the (some?) people have spoken and they apparently want to continue this discussion, so have at it!

Elric of Grans wrote:

BigToof wrote:Actually, if you read the OP the question was "Is it possible to defeat orks?" GW has made it clear that the tourney scene is not what they're designing for, and frankly I don't blame them. It really doesn't sound like any fun.

Actually, the question was more `what is the problem?'. While there are plenty of examples readily available of Orks having lost (I have seen it with my own eyes too!), there is a general perception out there that Orks are `broken' and stupidly over-powered, or that even an inferior Ork player can win easily. The question was `are they really that good?'. In other words, is the perception about them being game breaking accurate, or are people slow to adapt their perceptions to realise that Orks are in fact merely `different' and they will become as `weak' as everyone else once people see the chinks in their armour.

I think the answer is that yes, they really are that good.

There's allways a buzz surrounding every new codex (Well, except Dark Angels, haha!) that it's "Too Good" and "Broken" and stuff as we all pick out units we think will be broken and they turn out to suck (like Pedro and Yriel and Thousand Sons). The buzz dies down after a month or two and the next big thing comes along.

Orks have been out for over 12 months. The buzz has not died down in the slightest.

Sure, a good non-ork player can beat a bad ork player. So what? A good general can win games with Tau if they want, doesn't make Tau not suck. In a matchup of players of equal skill, Orks will win. That's why it's a problem.

So what's the difference between this and the previous power builds? Let's look at some in turn:

Nidzilla - This list was killed when people realised they just had to take 10 man tac squads with powerfists to beat it.

Twin Lash - there's plenty of counters to this list (Mech, Psychic hood, Runes of Warding, Grey Knights etc).

Eldar Air Force - Eldar wasn't broken without unkillable falcons, so it was just one specific build copping flak. It copped flak until the edition change killed it. Probably the most similar situation to Orks now (I can remember long threads going over the maths on Falcons whilst noobs held out that they were not really that bad).

Neil wrote:Orks have been out for over 12 months. The buzz has not died down in the slightest.

But Orks have a new codex and players just need to figure out how to beat them still!!!!1!

Seriously, this one fact alone puts the nail in the coffin of the idea that people just haven't started to spec anti-horde. I try to work a good amount of blast markers, multi-shot weapons, and high initiative CC attacks into my lists, and I've got about a 50/50 against the new ork codex. On paper this looks like it's fair, but in reality when many of the people playing orks are noobs who picked up their first models with a couple of AoBR deals... and when one of my first models was a GW-official cardboard-cutout Ork Dreadnought... things don't add up right.

willydstyle wrote:

Neil wrote:Orks have been out for over 12 months. The buzz has not died down in the slightest.

But Orks have a new codex and players just need to figure out how to beat them still!!!!1!

Seriously, this one fact alone puts the nail in the coffin of the idea that people just haven't started to spec anti-horde. I try to work a good amount of blast markers, multi-shot weapons, and high initiative CC attacks into my lists, and I've got about a 50/50 against the new ork codex. On paper this looks like it's fair, but in reality when many of the people playing orks are noobs who picked up their first models with a couple of AoBR deals....

QFT

*gets out popcorn and munches away*

This thread is made out of fun and win.

Here's the Ork dilemma in a nutshell.

Nothing can beat them if they charge you. Orks that charge will beat their point value in anything that they'd choose to charge.

Thus, you need to get the charge. First rate assault units can own Orks on the charge.

The problem is that while you both fence around they can always fall back, safe in the knowledge that they are doing more damage than you are in the pre-fight shooting. With Lootas, shootas, Wagons with burna units, Killa Kans, and that bleeping Kustom Force Field the orks completely rule the pre-conclusive assault part of the game, vs. pretty much anyone who has a shot at beating them in assault. They control the battlefield, and use this to force you to charge suboptimally.

And then they have the WAAAAGH! It's completely over-the-top. If you get amazingly lucky, and you are doing good in the pre-assault phase, and have forced them into 2 bad choice situation they can just shrug, say "Wargh.", and roll to win. Oh look, a 4 from one of the three slugga boy units. Now your shooting troops have been run over, game.

Shoulda gone green, chump.

Allan makes some really good points. I am going to mostly agree with him. But I might not be quite so far on the 'overpowered' side of the argument.

Blackmoor wrote:
So tell me, how do you counter Nob Bikers?

Also how do you kill Lootas?

How do you kill Snikrot?

How do you kill a horde of boyz?

How do you do it with a competitive list in a tournament setting that can also take on MEQs? Not only that, but I would like to see this list for every race since they all are able to counter the Orks.

I have written lists in multiple army books that can answer all four of those questions. While remaining a viable all comers list. Unfortunatly for the metagame, it is only 4 books. SM, CSM, demons and orks (who should be exempt from this discussion) Since those books are the 4 most recent, I would believe that new books will be able to withstand orks a lot better as they come out.

But Allan makes his point. We are talking about 4 out of 12 books? 34% of all books can successfully give orks a game? Other books can do it, but they do it at a cost of their 'all comers' balance.

Blackmoor wrote:
Let’s play a game! What is the best weapon to kill Lootas with?

snikrot... (couldn't resist )

You score another point here. I have played a LOT of games with orks, and most of them with 30-45 lootas. There are a few synergies that lootas have with shootas that stop most good combos dead.

15 fearless T4 models with 4+ cover saves, screen by a large footprint shooty unit that borders on 'elite' CC ability just can't really be attacked in any conventional way. Here are a list of some things I have tried multiple times in game. 3x fire prism, out of range of loota return fire. 3x whirlwind out of los. 3x leman russes accompanied by 3x hellhounds. Flank marching sentinels with flamers andflank marching war walkers with scatter lasers.

None are adequate counters. In many cases, you spend 3 turns with all fo your shooting to finally neutralize the loota threat. And now you see that you only have 2 turns left to START killing the 60-90 man scoring units. Lootas and shootas are quite synergistic.

The true counter to lootas is the counter that you use, and the counter that all of my lists that can give orks a game use. Just eat the shots, ignore them, and try and play on despite what they are doing to your gameplan.

Blackmoor wrote:
Here is a real world example:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Blackmoor_goes_to_the_Las_Vegas_GT_Part_II_(The_GT)#Game_%232_Blackmoor%26rsquo%3Bs_Witch_Hunter%26rsquo%3Bs_vs._Ryan%26rsquo%3Bs_(Shep)_Orks

This is Game #2 at the LVGT against Shep’s Orks. He had:
• HQ
o Big Mek w/Kustom Force Field, ‘Eavy Armor, Cybork Body, Grot Oiler, Mek’s Tools
o Big Mek w/Kustom Force Field, ‘Eavy Armor, Cybork Body, Grot Oiler, Mek’s Tools
• Elites
o 15 Lootas
o 15 Lootas
• Troops
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
• Heavy Support
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Big Shootas
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Grotzookas
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Grotzookas

All those points in Lootas! He could only afford 9 Killa Kans and 90 boyz! He was only able to get a 4+ cover save to his whole “Flimsy” army. I guess that I should have shot at the lootas for 2 turns, and taken about 8 of them out, and ignored everything else in his army?

Not only did he waste so many points in Lootas that crippled his army so badly that he was only able to massacre all of his other opponents.

(makes guilty face) That list performed remarkably well. I am man enough to admit that you out-generalled the hell out of me that game. The mission type favored me heavily, but the spearhead deployment opened the door for you to have a chance. I played a lot tighter in the rest of my games, but truthfully at least 2 of my massacres were from people who just weren't ready for orks. With all of the back and forth and all those kills you made with your exorcists. We ended up with a tie that had to go to VPs. Bad matchup to be sure, but you played with a codex ancient beyond reckoning

One of my massacres was to GT baltimore winner Neil. Funny story about that. His warboss charges a 15 loota unit, and got dropped before he got his attacks. Another reason lootas are good, is because they all have 2 ws4 attacks apiece. Charging a fresh unit, his warboss had to eat 30 strength 3 attacks that hit on 4s before he could go.


In summary and in conclusion,
overpowered? probably

unbeatable? maybe for some armies

unhealthy for the metagame? Absolutely not! By forcing people to take answers to horde stlye armies, this opens the door to taking models with good armor saves without fear of an unrealistic amount of ap3 and 2.

I have way more to say about this... but I gotta get back to work. Great thread.

@Shep

You left out the tyrannid codex which can make a good take all comers as well as be a great Ork killer. Also I can make a good take all comers GK list but no one considers them competative (i think they got way better in 5th but that's just me apparently, and maybe Shayne)

But i agree that the codexes made for 5th all have ways to create take all comers lists while being able to compete with orks. I actually like the trend for the metagame. It makes it far more interesting to go to tournements and play different armies. I got really tired of going to a GT and playing 5 marine players (chaos+reg.) and all of them saying thank god not another marine player to me (orks at the time).

Just my two cents, had to add in the only codex not geared for 5th that i think can build great lists.

Best way to beat orks at a tourny is wait for the guy with the ork bumper sticker on his car to pull into the parking lot and beat him up with your fists.

I play a lot of armies. When I want to win, I borrow someone's orks, and eventually just built my own orks. It's not unbeatable, but it is by far your best shot at winning 5 games in a row against an open field.

This has all but chased me out of the hobby. GW doesn't take the 'game' seriously, why should I?