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I have to agree with Trench Raider, Deep Striking a unit of Terminators beside a unit of Lootas will clean them out pretty well, though I prefer a Heavy Flamethrower for my Terminators.

Likewise a squad of Scourges with Splinter Cannons and a Terrorfex will splat them hard.

so if the dex is in the orks favour, why am i able to beat ork using tau or marines?

its all about how you play a match.

Well JD, like me it seems you are merely fond of tearing holes in the space time continuum of the Internets and it's ineffable wisdom.

I play Orcs in Fantasy. Apparently I should lose most of my games, and stand no chance against 'Tier 1' armies. Yet I have thrashed Dark Elves, Chaos Daemons, Vampire Counts....the list goes on.

Who knows, perhaps if we get enough people in a room together, we can rip a big enough whole that all the pointless whinging gets sucked into the void....

lol, doc, a list means nothing
ive seen a newer player slaughter a vet using a gak list, its all down to tactics and how you field your army.

being an ork player, ive learned over time what the boyz hate, and using my tau i can play on that knowing best units for ork hunting XD

after using nids all the time, then ork, and now tau i do have a few slip ups from time to time XD
forgetting that FW's dont quite cope with CC like orks or nids can

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Did I say Lootas are wasted points? Oh, no I didn't. In the least. Putting words in my mouth step one.

Orks are hardly overpowered. People are still paranoid about coming up against MEQ units, so overload on high S, lowAP, low firing weapons. Therein lies the problem.

I didn't. If you look at both my LVGT and Batlimore GT armies, I loaded up on heavy bolters, psycannons and flamers to kill orks. I ended up with a tie in the LVGT (see the post above). And a loss at the Baltimore GT.

And against said army, I'd have gone hell for leather early in the game to take out the Big Meks. If he's planning on using those Kustom Force Fields to achieve Victory, he'll be sorely disappointed when they are dead. What is he going to do against High Armour armies? AV14 will laugh in his face. He will struggle to deal with such things as Tyrants and Carnifex.

How do you kill big meks when they are IC and are buried in a unit of 30 orks hidden behind a wall of killa kans? And like I said, that army struggled to win so much that he massacred all his other opponents.

But of course, there couldn't possibly be even the slightest chance that he won his game through good generalship could there. Oh no. He used Orks which means he won because he used Orks, because when you use Orks they win because they are Orks....

His is a good general, and that is the problem. Orks in the hands of a good general are almost impossible to beat.

AS IS ANY OTHER ARMY.

For crying out loud!

You just said, right there, the guy is a good general, yes?

And yet earlier, you said people only win with Orks because they are using Orks, and thats because Codex Orks means you win because it has Orks in it.

Get some continuity in your whinging at least.

Let me put it this way. I am confident I am a better Fantasy player than yourself. IF I happened to borrow my flatmates Vampire army, and I thrashed you, does that mean I only won because of a nominally 'Tier 1' army? No. I won because I know what I'm doing with said force, and can slip in nasty surprises you won't spot until I've crushed your centre. I could do the same with an all Goblin army, if I am a competent general.....

Blackmoor wrote:How do you propose to use close combat weapons and flamers? You only have 48" and an entire ork army between you and the lootas. Inferno cannons are better. Too bad only one army can take them, and they have a 24" range and the lootas still out range them. Not only that, but if you try to move hellhounds up to shoot, you get Ork Boyz charging at them and you have given them a free 6" assault move.

Deep strike? Outflank? Use fast units to get there quickly?

And yeah, you're right, it's really hard to beat Lootas with one unit when the ork player also has the rest of his army.

This "out ranging" thing is getting a little silly too; when's the last time you played a game where your army was 48" away from the enemy?

Orkeosaurus wrote:What I was saying is that you can build a good, well rounded army that can beat every other codex out there from Necons, Tau, Chaos, Tyranids, to Dark Eldar, but you will not be able to beat Orks. That is the definition of a broken codex.

That's just not true.

There are people posting all over this thread that have been able to beat orks, there are people posting all over this thread that have had their orks beaten.

You can build an army that is good against deathguard and land raiders, but bad against orks, but you can build an army that's good against deathguard and orks but bad against land raiders, or one that has trouble with deathguard, etc, etc.

Yet everyone blames orks, and not the other armies that make anti-horde so much less useful.

Yes, winning or losing has nothing to do with how powerful a codex is, it is all about the players.

I wonder how can it be that Ork armies never won GTs all through their long 3rd edition codex, but when the 4th edition codex came out that they won every US GT? How is that possible? Maybe everyone took anti-horde weapons in 3rd and 4th edition, and nobody build their armies to kill MEQs? No, that does not sound right. Maybe it was some magic by Gork and Mork that made only bad players play ork in 3rd and 4th, and only good players in 5th?

What is the reason why Orks never won anything in third and fourth edition, but now are winning everything in 5th?

There is no debating that they got upgunned with the new Book, and rightly so.

But to the point of being unbeatable? Hell no.

They are also an extremely popular army, but oddly one that comes to prominence mainly when there are new models.

Tell you what, do you have access to the percentages of which armies were played? As in, 10% Marines, 2% Dark Eldar etc?

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:AS IS ANY OTHER ARMY.

For crying out loud!

You just said, right there, the guy is a good general, yes?

And yet earlier, you said people only win with Orks because they are using Orks, and thats because Codex Orks means you win because it has Orks in it.

Get some continuity in your whinging at least.

What I say is that an ork army makes a poor general hard to beat, and a good general impossible to beat.

I said that he was a good general, and so am I. I ended up with the most favorable deployment, in the most favorable mission and even with my anti-ork army I was only able to get a tie. If we were playing any other mission with any other deployment I would have lost, and there would have been nothing that I could have done about it.

So you categorically, one hundred percent were not actually outplayed?

*facepalm*

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:So you categorically, one hundred percent were not actually outplayed?

*facepalm*

That is right.

Words fail me. They really do.

Orks are kind of like the Dark Elves. People feel bad for them because of past codices and give them a free pass.

Heck, even I was okay with them. But now it's kind of obvious that unless you build -specifically- for them, you're screwed.

Oh, and congrats on building that army that can kill Orks. Have fun against that 3 Land Raider list next!

When I played balanced Guard (almost quite literally half-anti MEQ, half anti-Horde) I lost terribly.

I make an Eldar list with a metric ton of Scatter Lasers, now I have a better chance against Orks. But not against an army with lots of AV 13+.

You have to build an unbalanced list to beat the Orks. That's my problem.

And then we talk about the undercosted Orks.

Guess what, in 4th edition, Eldar players said, "Oh Falcons aren't unbeatable! You're just not playing against them right." What a load of BS.

Nob Bikers are the new Falcons.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Orks are kind of like the Dark Elves. People feel bad for them because of past codices and give them a free pass.

What?

Orks have been screamed about ever since their new codex.

I still laugh at the guard players who think that if their codex becomes overpowered anyone will care that they've had a bad codex up until then.

Oh, and congrats on building that army that can kill Orks. Have fun against that 3 Land Raider list next!

I make an Eldar list with a metric ton of Scatter Lasers, now I have a better chance against Orks. But not against an army with lots of AV 13+.

And here it is again. I can't make an army that's good against mech lists, hordes, and MEQ at the same time, so it's the hordes that are unbalancing the game.

Simply because until the new ork codex, every horde army really sucked. Guants? Worthless, everyone played nidzilla or stealershock, same as now. Guard? Guard infantry has no killing power, all their power is in the heavy and specials. Orks? 9 points for a slugga boy, so no. LatD? Sorry, GW doesn't have 20 minutes to update your army, they have to release another space marine codex.

Thus, when hordes are finally a real option, everyone complains.

(Nob bikers are a whole different ball game, of course; they're the standard nidzilla/mechdar/whatever is the tournament dominating power list at the time. They'll go down, eventually, and something else will take their place. Always does.)

I don’t expect you to get it but let’s try this…

Everyone can build a list that can beat everyone but Orks.

Orks can build a list that can beat everyone.

Which is better?

Blackmoor wrote:Everyone can build a list that can beat everyone but Orks.

Orks can build a list that can beat everyone.

Too bad it's not true.


Orks are probably the best of armies around right now, but one of the armies is always going to be the best.

They're not so powerful that no one ever stands a chance against them, or that they turn terrible generals into automatic winners, or that nothing in the game can kill their lootas, or any of the hysterics you keep claiming.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Orks are kind of like the Dark Elves. People feel bad for them because of past codices and give them a free pass.

What?

Orks have been screamed about ever since their new codex.

I still laugh at the guard players who think that if their codex becomes overpowered anyone will care that they've had a bad codex up until then.

And then there's some of us, the small minority, who actually want a balanced codex. Whudathunkit?!

Oh, and congrats on building that army that can kill Orks. Have fun against that 3 Land Raider list next!

I make an Eldar list with a metric ton of Scatter Lasers, now I have a better chance against Orks. But not against an army with lots of AV 13+.

And here it is again. I can't make an army that's good against mech lists, hordes, and MEQ at the same time, so it's the hordes that are unbalancing the game.

I never said it was the hordes, I said it was the Orks. I can make a balanced list that can defeat a swarm Nid army, and then after that, with the same list, defeat a mech army.

Simply because until the new ork codex, every horde army really sucked. Guants? Worthless, everyone played nidzilla or stealershock, same as now. Guard? Guard infantry has no killing power, all their power is in the heavy and specials. Orks? 9 points for a slugga boy, so no. LatD? Sorry, GW doesn't have 20 minutes to update your army, they have to release another space marine codex.

Thus, when hordes are finally a real option, everyone complains.

(Nob bikers are a whole different ball game, of course; they're the standard nidzilla/mechdar/whatever is the tournament dominating power list at the time. They'll go down, eventually, and something else will take their place. Always does.)

I do agree that hordes sucked, but the solution was like taking a machine gun to a paintball gun match. The solution was over the top.

Yes, because 6 point models with Str 4, WS4, and T4 with 4 attacks, and that are practically fearless are REALLY balanced.

I should at least be able to squeak out a win if a use a balanced list. In all honesty, I'm actually kind of afraid of what will happen when I go against my friend's Dark Angels with my current Eldar army.

I don't care that hordes are good now. It's perfectly fine as it makes sense. Orks and hordes are like peanut butter and jelly. I don't care about that.

But they're underpriced, and that's my problem.

I have faced the new Orks a couple of times, always with my all-comers list, and I've not been OMG DEY ARE 2 GUD! Now, I haven't faced the Stormboyz squad will the special character in them, but I have faced the Battlewagon full of Ghazgull + ridiculous Armor/invul/FNP squad, with trukks full of nobz, nob bikers, and deffkoptaz zipping around willy-nilly. I had trouble with them, to be sure, but it's the kind of trouble I would expect from an army that has an up to date book and wasn't written to be a 'fluff'-dud. I haven't even faced them with the new Marine book yet (Demonic infestation, cleanse and burn baby), but something tells me that my list (which has changed almost zero) is waaaaaaay better now that my Sternguard and Redeemer full of TH/SS termies are looking for a good krumpin.

I guess I should also clarify that I haven't faced the 45-loota redonkulessness either. Maybe that would change my attitude about the new Orks?

In the final analysis, some book or another will always be the king of the heap. If it's gotta be somebody, I'm glad it's Greenskins, they are one of my favorite aspects of the hobby.

bloody hell, this is still going on 0_o

just a note that no one has mentioned yet;

they have a new dex, it doesent mean its any better, it means people arent used to the changes when fighting orks.

when the whole sternguard drop trick started everyone complained about it being a instant win, people seemed to think that they were invincible at the time.

give it a few months for people to start getting more used to orks and how to beat them and it will be fine.
if you lose against every ork army, then maybe you need to change your list or tactics.

4 units of 10 tau fire warrors.

hitting on a 4+ with 30" range.
wounding on a 3+
no saves.

20 hits.
14 wounds.
14 dead boyz.

thats just a basic tau firewall, 14 dead boyz a turn, once within 12" thats 28 dead boyz a turn.

take into account battle suits, stealth suits, railheads ect.

tau take ork apart without many problems, just need a good plan and take out high priority units 1st.

Don't forget those luvverly Markerlights as wel, dropping cover saves, improving accracy....blamblamblam! Orks drop like Flies. And if they get too close for comfort, jump a Mob with some Kroot and watch the limbs fly!

crisis suit with burst cannon and flamer
move into range, shoot, run off.

with typical ork shooting they wont kill a suit unless they drag it into CC lol

Stealth Suits could make a pretty mess of Lootas as well. Stupid static Orkses! You just stand there whilst I shred you then go back into hiding. I'll even take a Dangerous Terrain test twice a turn to take out all that AP4!

Vladsimpaler wrote:And then there's some of us, the small minority, who actually want a balanced codex. Whudathunkit?!

You don't have to tell me that, I play IG too.

I never said it was the hordes, I said it was the Orks. I can make a balanced list that can defeat a swarm Nid army, and then after that, with the same list, defeat a mech army.

That's because swarm Nids are terrible!

From a competitive gaming standpoint, at least. That's what I was getting at.

People expect to be able to build lists that emphasize killing tanks and MEQs, and still beat hordes, because up until the ork codex all the horde armies were low tier.

Now people go up against a horde army that's as powerful as the big mech and MEQ armies, and they don't understand why they have so much trouble beating them.

I do agree that hordes sucked, but the solution was like taking a machine gun to a paintball gun match. The solution was over the top.

Yes, because 6 point models with Str 4, WS4, and T4 with 4 attacks, and that are practically fearless are REALLY balanced.

I should at least be able to squeak out a win if a use a balanced list. In all honesty, I'm actually kind of afraid of what will happen when I go against my friend's Dark Angels with my current Eldar army.

I don't care that hordes are good now. It's perfectly fine as it makes sense. Orks and hordes are like peanut butter and jelly. I don't care about that.

But they're underpriced, and that's my problem.

First of all, yeah you're really giving this an unbiased viewpoint by quoting the ork statline on the charge without mentioning it.

Second, I don't see why you think that you should be able to "squeek out a win" every time you play; are you just that great of a tactician or something? Maybe feeling entiled to a win is part of your problem?

Third, the problem is that "balanced" lists are not balanced correctly. "Balanced" has meant anti-MEQ, ant-armor, and anti-monstrous creature with some anti-horde occasionally thrown in as an afterthought for quite a while now. It's not like that anymore. Change your perception of what constitutes a "balanced list," so that it includes more anti-horde than it did before.

And yes, 180 boys are going to be hard for a balanced list to kill, but it's no different from 8 monstrous creatures, or 5 land raiders, or any other army that spams something to the breaking point. And it's not the cause of the problem any more than the other spamming lists are.

doc, your being a bit of an ork nob with that comment mate
stealth or not, 45 shots from deffgunz will stop most things XD

That's because swarm Nids are terrible!

and what is wrong with a nid army, max size 6 troop choices with out number?

backed up by bid nids of course

Thats why you keep at maximum range, and keep jumping in and out of cover.

Again, use a MArkerlight or two, and you are laughing at all the dead Orks!

Foolproof. Nope. Works? Absolutely!

Orkeosaurus wrote:
Orks are probably the best of armies around right now, but one of the armies is always going to be the best.

They're not so powerful that no one ever stands a chance against them, or that they turn terrible generals into automatic winners, or that nothing in the game can kill their lootas, or any of the hysterics you keep claiming.

Bingo! We have a winner! It's not an insta-win, it's not unbeatable.

I do agree that hordes sucked, but the solution was like taking a machine gun to a paintball gun match. The solution was over the top.

Yes, because 6 point models with Str 4, WS4, and T4 with 4 attacks, and that are practically fearless are REALLY balanced.

Let's get our facts straight. Ork choppa boyz are Str 3, and only have 3 base attacks. The fact that you confuse their furious charge with their base-line stats tells me that you let the orks get the charge. If you do, you're going to lose, since that's what orks want more than anything. You charge them, and all of a sudden it's a bunch of guys going into a weak, slow, lightly armored bunch of guys.

But they're underpriced, and that's my problem.

You could be correct about that. I was originally thinking that the price had dropped a point, not 3 per boy. At 9 points a slugga boy was overpriced. At 6 maybe a bit under.

Jive Professor wrote:
I guess I should also clarify that I haven't faced the 45-loota redonkulessness either. Maybe that would change my attitude about the new Orks?

In the final analysis, some book or another will always be the king of the heap. If it's gotta be somebody, I'm glad it's Greenskins, they are one of my favorite aspects of the hobby.

Which may be the other issue. It's a question of tournament logistics, vs one-off games. I would never expect to see ANYBODY put together 45 ork lootas for casual play. Same with some of the other things in the list that Blackmoor was posting, such at the 9 Killa Kanz, or the 6x30 boyz lists. And I'd suspect that anybody who did field that sort of crap would get the same treatment as somebody who decided to field 9 obliterators + 2 demon princes with lash, nobody would want to play with them more than once.

It's not a fun list to play, it's not a fun list to play against, it's not a fun list to paint and assemble. QED the person that who's doing that sort of thing probably isn't a fun person to play against.

Blackmoor wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:So you categorically, one hundred percent were not actually outplayed?

*facepalm*

That is right.

You almost sound like Stelek here, Blackmoor.