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This has been bugging me for a while lately. Are the Orks really as insanely powerful as everyone makes them out to be? Reading discussions all around the place, many people seem pretty defeatist when talking about the Orks, as if there were no option but to lose. Personally, I have never won, and usually get tabled, but I am hardly a brilliant general either. Looking over their Codex, they do have some good stuff. Shootaboyz are definitely under-costed, Nobs are extremely hitty, Lootas have the potential to destroy anything. They also have their fair share of garbage too, like Flashgitz. There is no question they are a powerful army, but are they as good as people make them out to be? They do not seem as obviously broken as the Fantasy Battle Daemons are, so surely it is all exaggerated. Surely?

When the new Orks came out, it was to be expected that people would call them broken and complain about them being unbeatable. This happens every single time a new release comes out. People normally learn to deal with the change in three or four months and move onto the next `broken' army to complain about. Orks have been out for quite a while, however, and people still treat them much the same. Perhaps this is just because there are so few armies updated to Fifth Edition so far, and this will all change once the Codex-release-machine stops jamming. Alternatively, could it be that this is purely the players? The metagame in 40K was heavily skewed towards MEQ, and this was reflected in people's lists and strategies. Now we have a true hoard running across the table, those lists and strategies have lost effectiveness. Are people perhaps still searching for the right balance in their play and this `problem' will go away once more people learn how to adapt?

An ork army is the same as every other race, they have strengths and weaknesses.
its up to a general to make use of a solid list and some good tactics.

and whats wrong with cheap boyz?
6 troop choices, 180 boyz, 1080 points

I guess people still haven't caught on that the king of 40k weaponry is the flamer, not the plasma gun. It has been from the beginning, but now even more so.

Use tactics,

I personally believe that yes, they are that good.

That is, unless you build SPECIFICALLY for them, then they are incredibly hard to beat.

I built my Eldar army specifically to beat Orks. In fact in my latest battle, I would have won, except that I got to the objective too late.

Had there been another turn the Orks would have been defeated.

So yes, they are insanely good. But if you build specifically for them then they're more manageable. (Kind of)

Never lost to orks in fifth edition yet. I've won twice and drawn once. They are good but not unbeatable.

While I hear a lot of wailing and nashing of teeth, nobody seems to be able to point to the one thing that over the top. Depending on who's making the comments, it's the Nob Bikers, or the Lootas, or the masses of ork boyz, or whatever is the local beat stick. There's a lot of cool stuff in the ork list which makes it very nice, but it can also also be beaten. There is nothing which is so uber that there isn't a counter for every army in the game. I honestly think it's just the usual new codex bitching.

The point with the Orks is ,as pointed out, that you can't expect your ordinary "take all comers" army and hope to beat orks,
you need to specially kit out your force the stand a chance. Stock up flamers, blast weapons and other weapons with many shots.
They are good, great but not unbeatable.
Plus i really think (or it is a fools hope ) that once all the new codices are out, the balance will be back
Well, happy hunting!


//Edge

if your marines, stock up on heavy bolters and assult cannons.
only thing they cant hurt in the army is a battlewagons front or side.

Pretty much what everyone here has said. Orks do tend to be reasonably tough.

I've never lost with my Orks against people's standard (read take on MEQ's) lists. On the other side though, I've seen my army eaten alive by lists geared to deal with Orks. Honestly, I think they're beatable with a balanced list, but people are still taking anti-MEQ lists, at least in my area. That will change, but it'll take some time.

I once wiped the floor with a Demon army. Few armies can hold their own against the mass of attacks even small Ork units can dish out.
They do have problems with AV14 though.

I also wonder if all the MEQ lists have become so standard that people have forgotten WHY the las-plas was the combo of choice. Lots of cookie cutter approaches out there from people who have been told don't take X, it sucks, but not WHY. Heavy bolters and flamers are two excellent examples of weapons that are not good against MEQs, but rock against horde armies, with their poor saves.

OnTheEdge wrote:The point with the Orks is ,as pointed out, that you can't expect your ordinary "take all comers" army and hope to beat orks,
you need to specially kit out your force the stand a chance.
//Edge

Agreed! If your army is anti-MEQ you should expect to lose to orks alot.

Another thing I've noticed is that people who play MEQ armies tend to get hasty, being used to be able to charge and come out on top
in most situations. And when they try their luck against orks they loose and they say that the orks are broken.

It all comes down to that ork armies want to get stuck and good i CC, but deny them that and they are done for.
Hug cover for a few turns and lower their insane numbers with some good fire and then leap out of cover and counter-attack.

Not fools prove but effective


//Edge

MY Orks are that good.


Just kidding. But seriously, it's nice to be able to wield my Ork horde Army as an effective combat weapon. I remember when I would win maybe 2-% of my games. Now it feel like I actually have a fighting chance, if I use my forces correctly

Orks are good, but not unstoppable. The newer codex and 5th moved them from near the bottom of the pile to nearer the top, and the metagame hasn't quite caught up yet.

BigToof wrote:While I hear a lot of wailing and nashing of teeth, nobody seems to be able to point to the one thing that over the top. Depending on who's making the comments, it's the Nob Bikers, or the Lootas, or the masses of ork boyz, or whatever is the local beat stick. There's a lot of cool stuff in the ork list which makes it very nice, but it can also also be beaten. There is nothing which is so uber that there isn't a counter for every army in the game. I honestly think it's just the usual new codex bitching.

So tell me, how do you counter Nob Bikers?

Also how do you kill Lootas?

How do you kill Snikrot?

How do you kill a horde of boyz?

How do you do it with a competitive list in a tournament setting that can also take on MEQs? Not only that, but I would like to see this list for every race since they all are able to counter the Orks.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:Orks are good, but not unstoppable. The newer codex and 5th moved them from near the bottom of the pile to nearer the top, and the metagame hasn't quite caught up yet.

People have been saying this since the codex came out a year ago. I expect to see it next year...and the year after that.

Blackmoor wrote:How do you do it with a competitive list in a tournament setting that can also take on MEQs?

Why is it solely the orks' fault for people being unable to beat orks, MEQ, and mech armies with one list?

I'd guess people are just bitter that their best power lists don't stand up to good old fashioned Orky violence.

Lets look at Lootas....Sure, they are incredibly shooty, even allowing for their piss poor BS of 2. However, they are still T4 with a 6+ save. Hardly an immovable object.

And tell me, if I invest heavily in Lootas for my army, as in maxing out on them, how many points have I spent on relatively flimsy troops, and how big a dent will be left in my overall strategy if you use your noodle and take them out as a priority? Sure, it is of course easier said than done. No debating that. But at 15 points a pop, thats a LOT of points I've sunk into a single element from my list.

So, whats good against Orks? Pieplates, obviously, anything roughly equivalent to a Heavy Bolter (and everyone has those!) other assorted template weapons, and for Morks sake, try not to let them pick the assaults. Use counter assaults to break up his line. Sacrificial Pawns are a classic part of Chess, so why not 40k? If I can chuck in a bunch of Assault Marines, or their ilk, to a relatively unmolested Ork unit, I can hold them up for a bit whilst whittling down their numbers. This allows me to concentrate the firepower of my other units more effectively, having at least temporarily removed a potential target from the equation.

Tau for example. What could be better for beating the snot out of Ork units than Kroot? Cheap, cheeful, shooty enough (pretty much have Bolters when you are fighting 6+ saves) and don't forget the Kroothounds for lovely high I decent S attacks. Sure, as with anything they engage the Kroot aren't terribly likely to walk away, but with the sheer volume of attacks they can kick out, and the new Cover Saves making them hard to kill, it's well worth it.

Orks are more of a mid to late game army. The first two or three turns are yours. Do your damage strategically. Never ever plan to wipe them out. It's doable, but exceedingly difficult to wipe Orks out. Try using units in synergy with each other, rather than worrying about Deathstar units. Work out Fireteams, consider counter assault units (favourite trick with my Tau is to put Kroot behind Firewarriors, switching places when the inevitable assault looms. Lots of rapid fire, and the promise of a kicking in HTH awaits your opponent....

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I'd guess people are just bitter that their best power lists don't stand up to good old fashioned Orky violence.

That is right! I am glad you came on board. The Orks are overpowered, and all of the other armies can’t build lists that can compete with them. That is why the OP asked “Are Orks really that good?” So your answer is yes.

I know you Ork players get upset when people point out that it is your codex that is winning your games and not your skill or tactics, but that is what is happening.

“Lets look at Lootas....Sure, they are incredibly shooty, even allowing for their piss poor BS of 2. However, they are still T4 with a 6+ save. Hardly an immovable object.

Let’s take a look at what you said.

Fiction: “They have 6+ save”
Fact: There will always be a green wall of orks between Lootas and what is shooting at them so they will get their 4+ cover save. This will be less of a factor for the lootas because they are either shooting at vehicles that do not benefit from screening troops, or the fact that they have AP4 and the sheer volume of their fire makes giving their target a 4+ cover save irrelevant.

Fiction: Hardly an immovable object.
Fact: I have never killed a loota squad. They are fearless when they are above 10 models, so good luck getting them to break. Ork players put the myth out there that Lootas can be killed. Let me tell you, they do not know what they are talking about.

Let’s play a game! What is the best weapon to kill Lootas with?

They answer is, nothing! A lot of people say that that it is the meta game where everyone takes las/plas to kill MEQs are the reasons why Orks do so well. So let's take a look at heavy bolters that ork players always say needs to be taken to kill them. So how many lootas can a heavy bolter kill? 2? 1? The answer is .6! Wow! So you can shoot 8 heavy bolters at a squad of 15 lootas (do they come in any other size?) and then they are only down to 10 models! And if you kill one more they have to take a LD check! Wow! Since we are playing in fantasy land we will forget that lootas also out-range heavy bolters by 12".

To sum up, 8 heavy bolters is a ton of firepower and it really does not do that much to them. So all you have to do is shoot 24 heavy bolters at a loota squad and you can kill them. Of course I would like to remind you that nothing happens in a vacuum, and that when you are shooting all of these heavy bolters at the lootas, there is a wall of ork boyz about to Waagh and hit your lines.

And tell me, if I invest heavily in Lootas for my army, as in maxing out on them, how many points have I spent on relatively flimsy troops, and how big a dent will be left in my overall strategy if you use your noodle and take them out as a priority? Sure, it is of course easier said than done. No debating that. But at 15 points a pop, thats a LOT of points I've sunk into a single element from my list.

I can’t believe what you are saying. Flimsy troops? There are a ton of them! Take them out? How? How do I kill lootas when I have a lot of boyz running at me? Lots of points to buy them? Yes, they are expensive, too bad your boyz are also so expensive…oh wait a minute they are dirt cheap!

Here is a real world example:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Blackmoor_goes_to_the_Las_Vegas_GT_Part_II_(The_GT)#Game_%232_Blackmoor%26rsquo%3Bs_Witch_Hunter%26rsquo%3Bs_vs._Ryan%26rsquo%3Bs_(Shep)_Orks

This is Game #2 at the LVGT against Shep’s Orks. He had:
• HQ
o Big Mek w/Kustom Force Field, ‘Eavy Armor, Cybork Body, Grot Oiler, Mek’s Tools
o Big Mek w/Kustom Force Field, ‘Eavy Armor, Cybork Body, Grot Oiler, Mek’s Tools
• Elites
o 15 Lootas
o 15 Lootas
• Troops
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
• Heavy Support
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Big Shootas
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Grotzookas
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Grotzookas

All those points in Lootas! He could only afford 9 Killa Kans and 90 boyz! He was only able to get a 4+ cover save to his whole “Flimsy” army. I guess that I should have shot at the lootas for 2 turns, and taken about 8 of them out, and ignored everything else in his army?

Not only did he waste so many points in Lootas that crippled his army so badly that he was only able to massacre all of his other opponents.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:How do you do it with a competitive list in a tournament setting that can also take on MEQs?

Why is it solely the orks' fault for people being unable to beat orks, MEQ, and mech armies with one list?

Because the question of the OP was "Are Orks really that good?" The answer is yes they are. I was giving an example of why they are that good.

Blackmoor wrote:Ork players put the myth out there that Lootas can be killed. Let me tell you, they do not know what they are talking about.

Yes, you're right, it's all a conspiracy. Lootas cannot be killed by anything ever, and they never have been.

Let’s play a game! What is the best weapon to kill Lootas with?

Close combat weapons.

Inferno cannons and mass pulse rifles and such will work too, but close combat is usually the best way to clear out fire bases hiding in cover.

So let's take a look at heavy bolters that ork players always say needs to be taken to kill them.

Actually you do have a point here; heavy bolters aren't that great against orks, flamers and combat resolution are where the money is.

Because the question of the OP was "Are Orks really that good?" The answer is yes they are. I was giving an example of why they are that good.

So they're that good because it's hard to beat them and space marines at the same time.

Why aren't the space marines the ones who are "that good," when it's so hard to beat them and horde orks at the same time?

Blackmoor wrote:

BigToof wrote:While I hear a lot of wailing and nashing of teeth, nobody seems to be able to point to the one thing that over the top. Depending on who's making the comments, it's the Nob Bikers, or the Lootas, or the masses of ork boyz, or whatever is the local beat stick. There's a lot of cool stuff in the ork list which makes it very nice, but it can also also be beaten. There is nothing which is so uber that there isn't a counter for every army in the game. I honestly think it's just the usual new codex bitching.

So tell me, how do you counter Nob Bikers?

Counter assault, shoot them, drop big pie plates on them. They are an UBER expensive unit, since you've taken nobs, put them on bikes, and added a pain boy. The cheapest possible nob biker mob is 135 points, less than a space marine tac squad. Add in the pain boy, and they jump to 210. This is slightly less than obliterators, who have better ranged attack, better armor, and comparable close combat skills. Add in any sort of toys, or more boys, and the mob turns into a huge point sink.

Blackmoor wrote:
Also how do you kill Lootas?

How do you kill a unit with T4, Sv6+? Just about ANYTHING will kill them, including a stiff breeze.

Blackmoor wrote:
How do you kill Snikrot?

T4, Sv 6+? Once again, hardly invulnerible. His ability to come in from any table edge is nice, but it's only slightly better than any other infiltrating unit in the game, and he costs 85 points, or 60 points more than a nob for the squad. It's a pretty horrible deal, IMHO.

Blackmoor wrote:
How do you kill a horde of boyz?

Massed small arms fire will do wonders against ork boyz. Pie plates are also nice, and other template weapons, but any army with a good number of troops should be able to put a hurting on orks as they cross the table, then clean up the survivors. If I was playing marines I'd take a lot of plasma cannons and missile launchers to a tournament anyway. Both are excellent at taking out just about everything.

Blackmoor wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I'd guess people are just bitter that their best power lists don't stand up to good old fashioned Orky violence.

That is right! I am glad you came on board. The Orks are overpowered, and all of the other armies can’t build lists that can compete with them. That is why the OP asked “Are Orks really that good?” So your answer is yes.

I know you Ork players get upset when people point out that it is your codex that is winning your games and not your skill or tactics, but that is what is happening.

“Lets look at Lootas....Sure, they are incredibly shooty, even allowing for their piss poor BS of 2. However, they are still T4 with a 6+ save. Hardly an immovable object.

Let’s take a look at what you said.

Fiction: “They have 6+ save”
Fact: There will always be a green wall of orks between Lootas and what is shooting at them so they will get their 4+ cover save. This will be less of a factor for the lootas because they are either shooting at vehicles that do not benefit from screening troops, or the fact that they have AP4 and the sheer volume of their fire makes giving their target a 4+ cover save irrelevant.

Fiction: Hardly an immovable object.
Fact: I have never killed a loota squad. They are fearless when they are above 10 models, so good luck getting them to break. Ork players put the myth out there that Lootas can be killed. Let me tell you, they do not know what they are talking about.

Let’s play a game! What is the best weapon to kill Lootas with?

They answer is, nothing! A lot of people say that that it is the meta game where everyone takes las/plas to kill MEQs are the reasons why Orks do so well. So let's take a look at heavy bolters that ork players always say needs to be taken to kill them. So how many lootas can a heavy bolter kill? 2? 1? The answer is .6! Wow! So you can shoot 8 heavy bolters at a squad of 15 lootas (do they come in any other size?) and then they are only down to 10 models! And if you kill one more they have to take a LD check! Wow! Since we are playing in fantasy land we will forget that lootas also out-range heavy bolters by 12".

To sum up, 8 heavy bolters is a ton of firepower and it really does not do that much to them. So all you have to do is shoot 24 heavy bolters at a loota squad and you can kill them. Of course I would like to remind you that nothing happens in a vacuum, and that when you are shooting all of these heavy bolters at the lootas, there is a wall of ork boyz about to Waagh and hit your lines.

And tell me, if I invest heavily in Lootas for my army, as in maxing out on them, how many points have I spent on relatively flimsy troops, and how big a dent will be left in my overall strategy if you use your noodle and take them out as a priority? Sure, it is of course easier said than done. No debating that. But at 15 points a pop, thats a LOT of points I've sunk into a single element from my list.

I can’t believe what you are saying. Flimsy troops? There are a ton of them! Take them out? How? How do I kill lootas when I have a lot of boyz running at me? Lots of points to buy them? Yes, they are expensive, too bad your boyz are also so expensive…oh wait a minute they are dirt cheap!

Here is a real world example:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Blackmoor_goes_to_the_Las_Vegas_GT_Part_II_(The_GT)#Game_%232_Blackmoor%26rsquo%3Bs_Witch_Hunter%26rsquo%3Bs_vs._Ryan%26rsquo%3Bs_(Shep)_Orks

This is Game #2 at the LVGT against Shep’s Orks. He had:
• HQ
o Big Mek w/Kustom Force Field, ‘Eavy Armor, Cybork Body, Grot Oiler, Mek’s Tools
o Big Mek w/Kustom Force Field, ‘Eavy Armor, Cybork Body, Grot Oiler, Mek’s Tools
• Elites
o 15 Lootas
o 15 Lootas
• Troops
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
o 29 Shoota Boyz w/3 big shootas
 Boyz Nob w/Power Klaw, Bosspole
• Heavy Support
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Big Shootas
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Grotzookas
o 3 Killa Kans, w/3 Grotzookas

All those points in Lootas! He could only afford 9 Killa Kans and 90 boyz! He was only able to get a 4+ cover save to his whole “Flimsy” army. I guess that I should have shot at the lootas for 2 turns, and taken about 8 of them out, and ignored everything else in his army?

Not only did he waste so many points in Lootas that crippled his army so badly that he was only able to massacre all of his other opponents.

Did I say Lootas are wasted points? Oh, no I didn't. In the least. Putting words in my mouth step one.

Orks are hardly overpowered. People are still paranoid about coming up against MEQ units, so overload on high S, lowAP, low firing weapons. Therein lies the problem.

And against said army, I'd have gone hell for leather early in the game to take out the Big Meks. If he's planning on using those Kustom Force Fields to achieve Victory, he'll be sorely disappointed when they are dead. What is he going to do against High Armour armies? AV14 will laugh in his face. He will struggle to deal with such things as Tyrants and Carnifex.

But of course, there couldn't possibly be even the slightest chance that he won his game through good generalship could there. Oh no. He used Orks which means he won because he used Orks, because when you use Orks they win because they are Orks.....

Let’s play a game! What is the best weapon to kill Lootas with?

Deep striking a shooty unit right next to them does the trick. I did it with my Nurgle marked terminators a few games ago. I'll tell you that close ranged rapid fire twin linked bolters, a reaper autocannon, and a bolter/flamer on the squad leader will pretty much do for a glass cannon like a loota squad.

TR

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:Let’s play a game! What is the best weapon to kill Lootas with?

Close combat weapons.

Inferno cannons and mass pulse rifles and such will work too, but close combat is usually the best way to clear out fire bases hiding in cover.

How do you propose to use close combat weapons and flamers? You only have 48" and an entire ork army between you and the lootas. Inferno cannons are better. Too bad only one army can take them, and they have a 24" range and the lootas still out range them. Not only that, but if you try to move hellhounds up to shoot, you get Ork Boyz charging at them and you have given them a free 6" assault move.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:Because the question of the OP was "Are Orks really that good?" The answer is yes they are. I was giving an example of why they are that good.

So they're that good because it's hard to beat them and space marines at the same time.

Why aren't the space marines the ones who are "that good," when it's so hard to beat them and horde orks at the same time?

What I was saying is that you can build a good, well rounded army that can beat every other codex out there from Necons, Tau, Chaos, Tyranids, to Dark Eldar, but you will not be able to beat Orks. That is the definition of a broken codex.

You really are a negative nancy aren't you?

No wonder you never win against Orks. You're so busy thinking of reasons why something might not work, you never bother looking for what might work.

You clearly have decided not to listen to anyone and instead just declare yourself correct.

So tell me, how do you counter Nob Bikers?

Also how do you kill Lootas?

How do you kill Snikrot?

How do you kill a horde of boyz?

late i know , but:


counter nob bikers with instant death, most forms of cannon do the job well, a unit of las dev's should target them if no battle wagons are about or in LOS.

lootas?
lash them out the way, shoot them at long range, blast weapons, they are normal orks, just with random guns, nothing hard to kill about them.

snikrots stats arent too good, he lacks the ability to get through armour, so a unit of marines could possibly beat him in combat.

hordes are easy;
flamers, any blast weapon available, multi shot weapons, make full use of rapid fire.


orks are pretty easy to beat if you have a list to do so with, like if your fighting any other army.

Blackmoor wrote:
I know you Ork players get upset when people point out that it is your codex that is winning your games and not your skill or tactics, but that is what is happening.

Or maybe it's your skill and tactics that are losing you games. Ever think of that?