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Kilkrazy wrote:Genestealer hybrids with guns were a bad idea because the point about genestealers was they didn't have guns.

Other factions are a bad idea because no-one is a tough as a terminator, so to make other troops work you need to enlarge the corridors to get more of them in. This ruins the terrain setup and the way heavy weapons work.

On the other hand, as-is Space Hulk is a very boring game, mostly because genestealers are dull, uninteresting opponents. Once you've killed the first 10, the following 4990 are just more of the same old routine.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Genestealer hybrids with guns were a bad idea because the point about genestealers was they didn't have guns.

Other factions are a bad idea because no-one is a tough as a terminator, so to make other troops work you need to enlarge the corridors to get more of them in. This ruins the terrain setup and the way heavy weapons work.

On the other hand, as-is Space Hulk is a very boring game, mostly because genestealers are dull, uninteresting opponents. Once you've killed the first 10, the following 4990 are just more of the same old routine.

If it is so boring, how did it win an Origins award?
Why do so many player still remember it fondly 20 years later?
Why is there such anticipation of a new edition?

Bribery, nostalgia and misplaced yearning to recreate one's youth, in that order?

No, seriously, I don't know. I've tried very hard to like SH, and have always failed, because Genestealers are boring.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Bribery, nostalgia and misplaced yearning to recreate one's youth, in that order?

Seems doubtful, I've played it at cons within the past couple of years, and came home all fired up to buy a copy off of ebay..... until I saw the $100 price for a screwed up version, and 150-200 for a nice one.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Bribery, nostalgia and misplaced yearning to recreate one's youth, in that order?

No, seriously, I don't know. I've tried very hard to like SH, and have always failed, because Genestealers are boring.

Why don't you play a different game with more different weapons in it, such as 40K, if that's what you want?

What does Agamemnon do ANYTHING? In order to increase his own misery so he can complain, of course.

Kilkrazy wrote:Why don't you play a different game with more different weapons in it, such as 40K, if that's what you want?

I do, sheesh. But if they're making a new edition, I trust I'm entitled to wish that it'd cater to me as well, by bending to scenarios other than terminators vs genestealers. The potential for a squad-based 40k boardgame is definite.

Scottywan82 wrote:What does Agamemnon do ANYTHING? In order to increase his own misery so he can complain, of course.

INSTANT CLASSIC

BUT, I'm kind of with him on hoping for some variety too...

So, I guess that makes me an

INSTANT HYPOCRITE

Some days I feel like this entire forum is sitting at the feet of H.B.M.C. and seeking only to find the perfect path to complaining 100% of the time, regardless of topic. =)

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Why don't you play a different game with more different weapons in it, such as 40K, if that's what you want?

I do, sheesh. But if they're making a new edition, I trust I'm entitled to wish that it'd cater to me as well, by bending to scenarios other than terminators vs genestealers. The potential for a squad-based 40k boardgame is definite.

Not if it spoils it for everyone who likes it.

Space Hulk isn't a squad-based 40k boardgame.

It interesting to see what people want out of the game.

SpaceHulk, for all intents and purposes has always been like what we saw in the 4th ed Kill Team rules. its really funny when I see people balk at the "Return to Space Hulk" Kill team rules that GW posted online for a twist on Kill Team, but the similarities between space hulk and kill team are unmistakable.

You have the protagonist, who has the side of moral righteousness, fighting against an inordinate number of plebeian antagonists, nameless and faceless goons if you will.
The only difference between kill team and space hulk, is that the roles for the two sides are reversed in kill team in how they engage each other, because the protagonist wants to be as secret as possible while obtaining the objective in kill team, so shooting gets the guards on you. The goons squads however were stronger when shooting, instead of CC.

It would be nice for GW to bring back some variation though. Make a mutable set of rules for the protagonist (such as pick your fave squad from your fave army @ X points and enter the hulk and do your business there) but the antagonists should always be nameless goons, with very little if any variance.

Its the fight against attrition that makes a lot of people like how space hulk is, IMO. The challenge of beating those overwhelming odds with minimal strength of force through superior tactics.

Indeed, the more 'boring' the forces involved are, the more emphasis is made on strategy and tactics of the game. Chess isn't much to look at, but there is no denying that it is a strong game.

I get the strange feeling that GW is trying to reintroduce Kill Team rules back into 40K, and they may take this opportunity to do just that.

Funny thing is that we might just get a rules supplement and nothing else. No tiles, no models... just rules.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Panic wrote:

5 terminators

10 genestealers

It'd need to be far more than that. 10 Terminators and 20 Genestealers. That's easy to fit on two sprues - two identical sprues as well for that matter.

BYE

Which is why it'll be $60+, but the $50 wishlisting crowd don't want to hear that.

Kilkrazy wrote:Not if it spoils it for everyone who likes it.

Space Hulk isn't a squad-based 40k boardgame.

Now I'm honestly confused. the player controls a squad of Terminators, it's set in the 40k universe, and there's a mutable gameboard. But it isn't a "squad-based 40k boardgame"? I can only assume I'm using the terminology somehow wrong.

In any case, the presence of optional additional rules cannot ruin the core of the game any more than the presence of Stealth Chess could ruin the conventional chess game for its aficionados.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Not if it spoils it for everyone who likes it.

Space Hulk isn't a squad-based 40k boardgame.

Now I'm honestly confused. the player controls a squad of Terminators, it's set in the 40k universe, and there's a mutable gameboard. But it isn't a "squad-based 40k boardgame"? I can only assume I'm using the terminology somehow wrong.

Possibly.

Space Hulk, Mordheim, etc aren't really squad based games because the miniatures move independently from the rest of the unit that they 'belong' to. I suppose it would be termed as a 'skirmish' type of game. Thats how I interpret the term anyways.

If my interpretation is correct, then 40K would be a squad based game.

Regardless, while additional rules can be beneficial, they can be a detriment as well.

Take the expansions for 1st ed space hulk for example.
Deathwing had great rules, while genestealer was largely a waste of time outside of new tiles for the game. It might be why Deathwing was heaped with accolades and won an award, while genestealer was only purchased by completists or people wanting more tiles.

Scottywan82 wrote:Some days I feel like this entire forum is sitting at the feet of H.B.M.C. and seeking only to find the perfect path to complaining 100% of the time, regardless of topic. =)

Optimism is unheard of for the vinegar pissers we got around here. I wouldn't be surprised if something was released up to their impossible specs and they would still find something to nag about.

As much as I'd love to join your little fictional rogues gallery of eternally ungrateful miscreants, I must protest. I have nothing negative to say about GW rereleasing Space Hulk after all these years, because it's evident more than a handful of people want the game, given its high secondhand value. I don't have to like it.

Feel free to not believe me and instead entertain what delusions you will.

Bah humbug, be that way. I wasn't even pointing a finger or singling people out.

Now where did I put that tab of acid, I need me some delusions fierce!

BrookM wrote:Bah humbug, be that way. I wasn't even pointing a finger or singling people out.

Or to paraphrase Dune (the greatest novel ever):

I produce a general garment and you claim it cut to fit?

Oh you crazy Bene Gesserit.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Not if it spoils it for everyone who likes it.

Space Hulk isn't a squad-based 40k boardgame.

Now I'm honestly confused. the player controls a squad of Terminators, it's set in the 40k universe, and there's a mutable gameboard. But it isn't a "squad-based 40k boardgame"? I can only assume I'm using the terminology somehow wrong.

In any case, the presence of optional additional rules cannot ruin the core of the game any more than the presence of Stealth Chess could ruin the conventional chess game for its aficionados.

Space Hulk does not use the 40K rules and the Terminators move independently.

Optional rules can always be ignored, however if the core rules are changed (for example, by taking the KillTeam or 40K in 40 rules as the basis) then it could well be spoilt. The balance of the game depends on the rules and on the board design working together. Consequently, if the new edition board is designed for a completely different set of rules, it may be useless for playing the first edition Space Hulk.

I suppose this should not matter to me since I have two complete Space Hulk 1s and a Deathwing.

Scottywan82 wrote:Some days I feel like this entire forum is sitting at the feet of H.B.M.C. and seeking only to find the perfect path to complaining 100% of the time, regardless of topic. =)

Hey don't look at me! I'm the guy who spent $600 in the space of three days on eBay picking up every Space Hulk product ever made, and then doing it two years later with every Warhammer Quest product. I'm looking forward to a new edition, not so much because it's a new edition, but more the propsect of different terrain. It's the same reason I can't wait for Planetstrike (more terrain!).

BYE

Went to the local store today and Space Hulk is confirmed for Autumn 2009, following on the coat tails of Planet Strike. It will NOT be supported by the stores in the long run. Instead it will be available for some time instore, afterwards it becomes a direct only thing. Rules etc. are unknown, though I was told that it would be for any Chapter, not Blood Angels or Dark Angels.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Genestealer hybrids with guns were a bad idea because the point about genestealers was they didn't have guns.

Other factions are a bad idea because no-one is a tough as a terminator, so to make other troops work you need to enlarge the corridors to get more of them in. This ruins the terrain setup and the way heavy weapons work.

On the other hand, as-is Space Hulk is a very boring game, mostly because genestealers are dull, uninteresting opponents. Once you've killed the first 10, the following 4990 are just more of the same old routine.

Well all my work based on Genestealer variants thinks otherwise, genestealers are in fact the most customizable less boring race of creatures ever made by GW.
Looking forward for the new spacehulk.

The rule updates should be very interesting. I just wonder how much variety there will be terrain-wise...

Im thinkin that we will see:
10 Termies, which will basicaly be Black reach re-cuts, but will replace ones Stormbolter Arm with a Hvy Flamer.
20 Genestealers. (As long as these are 40k scale, I could see myself grabbing a set for my 'Nids)
A small amount of tiles, with an expansion pack put out there for the Die-hards.
A small number of accesories, possibly with Expansion pack.
Rules, I'm not sure, but they probably will include some for Different Termy options, and Biomorphs.

The greatness of Space Hulk was its extreme simplity. It made it in easy to play whilst priding a tactical challenge that wasn't reliant of hordes of rules to bog it down.

The Terminators/Stealers combo was perfection because it pitted 2 opposing forces that were literally the opposite of each other. Not to mention that the original game first came out in '88 or '89 and was obviously a tribute to Aliens.

I hope that the changes aren't that great as I love 1st edition and I'm a big believer in the principle of if it aint broke....

Incidentally forget the expansions, they did nothing but bog the game down.

I don't like the Timer and have never used it. I don't want that sort of pressure when trying to have a beer and crisps over a game. The 'stealers used to win too often easily, the marines needed the help.

I can see why people wouldn't like the time pressure. A friend of mine preferred to play without the timer because it let him calculate the marine moves to a T.

OTOH there are plenty of games without a timer.

Why not have a game where time pressure is a game mechanism? I always felt it worked well and by making games go quicker you could play the scenario both ways round.

I'm against timers.

Timed games serve little purpose aside from ending them sooner. Look at competitive chess and how it's timed - the timer is somewhat secondary as the initial part is all by rote anyways.

What the timer does is allow a more-experienced (or "smarter" / faster-moving / faster-thinking) player to increase his advantage over his opponent. As I think games should discourage "win more" mechanisms, then the timer should go away.

If Space Hulk moves more toward standard 40k resolution mechanics, I think that would go a long ways toward speeding play.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If Space Hulk moves more toward standard 40k resolution mechanics, I think that would go a long ways toward speeding play.

Could you eloborate?

I ask because spacehulk is already a pretty quick game. I find it difficult to beleive that it could get any faster to resolve.

As for the timers... Meh. If you like to use em, if not then don't. Its nice to have the option for people who do enjoy such tension.

If a game is incredibly simple a timer can really enhance the experience by forcing stupid mistakes.
This in turn increases the random factor that I find makes boardgames fun.
Narrative/Beer/Discussion is also fun so I will likely pick and choose when/whether to use a timer

Also, when I am king I am going to introduce a law stating that Ludo will never be played without a 3 second timer.
The penalty-Having your chair pulled from under you as you sit when you return from getting a round of beers at your expense.

That should stop the following:
1234 ooh I could get him, 1234 ooh not sure if i'm going to be safe there, 1234 he could get in the house with that, 1234 maybe
I should get him instead, 1234 yes thats it i'm going to get in the house, or maybe not..... tbc

Oh yeah, I'm also not good with kids!