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I would prefer we avoid the non- Dire Avenger troop slot aspect warriors. It just opens up too much cheese.

How about these changes to the phoenix lord.

1. Makes all aspect warriors fearless (as Avatar)
2. Allows all aspects of the phoenix lord to be scoring.
(i.e. Jain Zar makes Howling Banshees scoring.)
3. One unit of the phoenix lord's aspect may be taken as a retinue. No slot used. Allow Asurmen to qualify for two extra Dire Avenger units.

Beil Tan can still do the deed but it is forced into 2 regular troop choice and while not forced, it can take a
any choices but for fluff should take Dire Avengers.

A number of points have been raised about aspect abilities and upping the stats. The argument that WS/BS 6 for exarchs is too much may be valid. So why not:

Keep costs the same.
1. Scorpions and Banshees are CC aspects
Avengers, Spiders are Dual purpose. (Fluff wise if not in game. Otherwise bump them to shooting)
Hawks and Reapers are Shooting aspects.

CC aspects: WS 5 BS 3 A 2
Dual: WS 4 BS 4 A 2
Shooting: WS 3 BS 5 A 2

Exarch: Improve WS/BS +1 but not greater than 5
A +1. Ld +1 AV +1 and unlock abilities.

The attack value is base of 2 doing a comparison to Marine "guard" units that all get a base 2 attacks whether they are vangards, honor guard or sternguards. If these long-lived eldar epitomize combat, then they should have an increased base of attacks too. They just have to deal with -1 S & T while having +1 I.

How are Scorpions or Banshee as Troops "cheese"?

Before replying, please review the CSM Troops.

JohnHwangDD wrote:How are Scorpions or Banshee as Troops "cheese"?

Before replying, please review the CSM Troops.

Ahhh... fine take an army of Banshees or Scorpions.... Let's see the howl of marines as you take an aspect army of Dark Reapers as say 4 troop choices and 3 heavies... Or how about the Fuegan's mech army of Fire Dragons... Anyone up for facing 60 or so scoring fire dragons popping out of Wave Serpents? How about the Swooping Hawk skyleap army that you opponent can't touch until turn 5 when you have to start staying on the board?

Scorpions and Banshees are indead not cheese they are no worse than Dire Avenger shootiness. But there are other aspects and that is what I am saying is cheese. If you look at all I said, you can have 4 units of elite/heavy/fast aspects plus 6 units of dire avengers that are all scoring. So if points weren't the object and say you had a passion for scorpions, you could do.

Karandas
Retinue of 10 scorpions
3 Elites of 10 scorpions
6 Troops of 10 Dire Avengers
3 Fasts of 10 Warp Spiders
3 Heavies of 5 Dark Reapers.

Sound like a Biel Tan aspect army to me and 10 scoring units is not too shabby.

DAaddict wrote:Ahhh... fine take an army of Banshees or Scorpions....

Let's see the howl of marines as you take an aspect army of Dark Reapers as say 4 troop choices and 3 heavies...

Or how about the Fuegan's mech army of Fire Dragons... Anyone up for facing 60 or so scoring fire dragons popping out of Wave Serpents?

How about the Swooping Hawk skyleap army that you opponent can't touch until turn 5 when you have to start staying on the board?

Scorpions and Banshees are indead not cheese they are no worse than Dire Avenger shootiness. But there are other aspects and that is what I am saying is cheese.

OK, then we're agreed that Banshees & Scorps are OK as Troops.

4x Scorpions + 3x Reapers? Much weaker than 4x PM + 3x Oblits. Or 4x BA AM + 3x Devs w/ PCs

Fuegan + 6x 10 FD in WS is well over 1600 pts, so it had better be good, as that's your entire army. I think it auto-loses to mobbed Orks, though. I'm pretty sure that Dragons aren't a problem unit as Troops, even if taken as an army.

Skyleap is overrated, but even in C: CWE, SH (and Spears) remained Fast, so I don't think that this is something to be concerned about.

The only Aspects as Troops cheese was when we could take Reapers as Troops. CC Aspects? Definitely not cheese. Hawks & Dragons? Arguable. Spears & Spiders? Below the radar, and expensive per model, so not a major concern.

Remember, those Cult Marines are all Fearless, S4 T4+ in Sv3+ armor. They are just as specialized as Aspects, and they don't cause a problem as Troops. So the notion of non-Avenger Aspect Troops isn't bad, if done with some thought and reason.

Agreed. The problem is the simple "If you take a Phoenix Lord that aspect are troops" can be abused.

In a tournament, I would agree that the Fire Dragon army is not a real pain as there are answers to it but methinks your FNP Death Company marines will howl if you play that as will most other marines.

I don't like singling out any of the aspects but a new codex could allow the Scorps or Banshees to move to troop slots as a built in for
Jain Zar and Karandas but not allow it for any of the others.

Another nice - to justify the high cost of the lords would be to make ALL units of the same aspect qualify for their specials. So as an example, if you took Asurmen, all your Dire Avengers have Bladestorm and Defend. That significantly reduces the cost of all your dire avengers but you still may want the exarch for the items he adds to the unit. This would make it much like Vulkan modifies flamers/meltas for SM.

LOL: Spiders and Spears are non-starters as they do not have a Phoenix Lord. Forgot about that.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Remember, those Cult Marines are all Fearless, S4 T4+ in Sv3+ armor. They are just as specialized as Aspects, and they don't cause a problem as Troops. So the notion of non-Avenger Aspect Troops isn't bad, if done with some thought and reason.

And they cost over 20 points per...while aspects are cheaper.

I like the idea of the Phoenix lord making their aspects scoring (rather than troops) as I see Aspect Warriors like Sternguard. If they did become troops I would think a skyleap army of scoring units wouldn't be much fun to play against.

Oh, no doubt that PL = Aspect Troops is a problem, and that's only because of Maugen Ra. I don't think anybody seriously suggests this.

Also, those FNP DC will do just fine if they get into HtH...

If I had to guess at a universal PL rule, taking a PL should make their Aspects Scoring and Fearless, but who knows, maybe granting a bonus special rule will be the cherry on top of the sundae.

Honestly I don't see why dark reapers as troops would be a big problem. Noise marines are comparable, and even better against many armies, for cheaper.

[quote=Casper And they cost over 20 points per...while aspects are cheaper.

@willy: 5th tries to do away with Dev-type units as Troops, so I can't see it happening even it it were "fair".
____

@DA: I think you forget the +1A for 2 CCWs on the Eldar CC Aspects.

Banshees = 27@S3 + 3@S5 = 14 + 2 hits = 2 + 1 wounds = *3* dead PM. So the battle should be roughly a draw. Don't sell the girls short! Of course, being T3 Sv4+ is a minor problem when you can't charge out of the Transport...

The Scorps have Sv3+, so they have better chances to get into HtH, for their 40+ S4 attacks, hitting 20, wounding 7, 2.5 fail save = a smidge over *1* dead PM.

Yes, PM rock for their points...
____

Never mind, forgot about the Grenades...

Firstly:

Charge out of the Wave Serpent. No Doubt this HAS to be changed for an Eldar army to work at all. Like has been said, Eldar has lost their speed and need it back.

Secondly. Fix Starcannon, there's a thread on it now.

Thirdly. Fix Guardians, add an extra point to cost, add an extra WS to assualt squads and BS to defender squads, and make all shuriken weapons rending. If your firing ~18 shots with BS 4 rending all of a sudden your opponent is actually scared of getting within 12" instead of current things where guardians are better out of 12" due to enemy rapid fire or charge!

On a side note: Warlock cover save needs to be 4+ not 5+ and should count as being in cover for charge. That way defenders are now deadly! Assault squads with WS 5 I 5 and 3 attacks on the charge from the transport are a lot better compared to the epic fael they are now lol. Assault squads wont replace scorpions as scorpions have the 3+ save, s4, more attacks, they survive better out of combat and can take on armor 10 vehicles.

Finally, aspect warriors:

I like the PL makes aspects scoring units, and perhaps fearless. This would aid a lot.

Fix some aspect abilities, like Warp Spiders for example. Exarch powers should be like cheese you wanna take as soon as you bother to get an exarch, like Bladestorm, and Defend! Not crap stuff that you only use if you have left over points like War Shout or Stalker (which should be ignore difficult terrain).


I can't personally see any cheese in the current codex that we will lose, except maybe the dark reaper exarch with the tempest launcher, but that seems good not IMBA. Also I imagine they will probably make it so Wraithguard and Wraithlords count as mindless with out a psyker withing 12" (or 6" if they are cruel or 18" if nice) so that they can not contest objectives without that psyker.

Also, Aspects as troops (even just scorpions or HB) is not a good thing. Your whole army with Power Weapons is just cruel, MEQ anfd FNP armies (or both with PM) will suffer greatly! Having ~15 point models reduced to the effectiveness of 6 point guys is lose! Honestly Howling Banshees are actually behind PM (the second guy forgot the defensive grenades lose an attack on charge) but that's because PM have very little damage output, while a squad of banshees can kill a squad of marines in one assault! Your whole army infiltrating is also a bit harsh, it's only a turn before your assaulted by an army worth of mean troops! Sure it's kind of like the Daemons codex, but half their army is forced in to reserve to even it out!

JohnHwangDD wrote:@willy: 5th tries to do away with Dev-type units as Troops, so I can't see it happening even it it were "fair".
____

@DA: I think you forget the +1A for 2 CCWs on the Eldar CC Aspects.

Banshees = 27@S3 + 3@S5 = 14 + 2 hits = 2 + 1 wounds = *3* dead PM. So the battle should be roughly a draw. Don't sell the girls short! Of course, being T3 Sv4+ is a minor problem when you can't charge out of the Transport...

The Scorps have Sv3+, so they have better chances to get into HtH, for their 40+ S4 attacks, hitting 20, wounding 7, 2.5 fail save = a smidge over *1* dead PM.

Yes, PM rock for their points...

Nope. They lose +1 attack for charging because of the evil grenades the PMs got.

I agree with many of the rules ideas but I am currious to what direction people see Eldar going.

1) Increse stats/specail rules making eldar more like CSM, expensives points wise but very good at what they do? Few units but powerful?

2) Middle of the road, keep stats about the same but reduce the points cost on many things, while giving some things generic boosts to get the up do date.

3) Hordish, cheap points, many squads...

Which way do you see GW taking eldar?

Casper wrote:I agree with many of the rules ideas but I am currious to what direction people see Eldar going.

1) Increse stats/specail rules making eldar more like CSM, expensives points wise but very good at what they do? Few units but powerful?

2) Middle of the road, keep stats about the same but reduce the points cost on many things, while giving some things generic boosts to get the up do date.

3) Hordish, cheap points, many squads...

Which way do you see GW taking eldar?

All three. They are Eldar / The most flexible army in 40k. They will increase stats on some things so they can keeep up with the newer codexs. They will make some units cheaper points wise. hordeish...well maybe Mech horde. I can see them lowering the poits on the wave Serp and giving it a new ability (assault ramp?) so it will sell like the Valk.

Many people seem to have an issue with letting the PL use his aspects as scoring units. They still would not let them be troops, so you would still be limited on the # of squads you could take. Lets say someone did take Ra. He would still only have 3, and at a max of 5 in a squad that's a lot of points that a plasma cannon could devastate in a few turns.
Fire Dragons, cheep dirty and 12" range. Stay back then Assault, and that's just 2 troops like that you would need to worry about.

Casper wrote:1) Increse stats/specail rules making eldar more like CSM, expensives points wise but very good at what they do?

2) Middle of the road, keep stats about the same

3) Hordish, cheap points, many squads...

Which way do you see GW taking eldar?

I'd like to see GW take a 1.5 approach, with Aspects being more specialized and more tightly-focused, but about the same points / stats / cost-wise.

Points-wise, 15ppm or so is near the upper limit of what one might pay for a S3 T3 Aspect, before adding various gear.

Specialization might be well-handled via WS5 BS3 for HtH Aspects and WS3 BS5 for shooty Aspects, while retaining WS4 BS4 for generalist Aspects. I think the basic weapon kits are OK as-is, although the Guardians and Shuricats could use some tweaking.

Adding loads of detailed Special Rules probably isn't helpful, but a couple Army-wide universal rules probably wouldn't hurt, along with targeted application of USRs. For example, under 5E, the Eldar should probably have Fleet across the board, with "fast" Aspects gaining an improved Fleet (roll 2d6 & pick the best, or d3+3" Fleet).

As a "dying race", Horde is a horrible, horrible anti-Fluff approach. Guardians should be 5 to 10 models, with AGP option at 10 models. That said, many squads would be appropriate. Eldar should be competitive as a MSU build, preferably with some kind of option to withdraw unengaged units to avoid losing KPs.
_____

psf3077 wrote:Many people seem to have an issue with letting the PL use his aspects as scoring units.

I don't understand the problem here, either. It's no different from any of the other Special Characters making non-Troops units Scoring.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Oh, no doubt that PL = Aspect Troops is a problem, and that's only because of Maugen Ra. I don't think anybody seriously suggests this.

What? I do! Maugan Rah included! Dark Reapers are super expensive, T3 awful in CC, bleh armor wise, can't move and fire. Bring it, I think there are all sorts of armies that would wipe them out if used en masse as troops, like say, Demons?

Who cares...

EDIT:

especially with 5th ed 4+ cover everywhere rules!

The problem is that Reapers are "Devastator" class, and GW just doesn't do that any more, regardless of whether it'd be fair or not.

In thinking about it, I think all eldar troop carriers (WS and Falcon) should just get the assault vehicles rule, the points already well justify the upgrade anyhow.

EasyE wrote:In thinking about it, I think all eldar troop carriers (WS and Falcon) should just get the assault vehicles rule, the points already well justify the upgrade anyhow.

I really think it should be something more than just giving the falcon and WS Assault Ramps. Doin this make they leave their tails pointed at the enemy.

Something fluffy that seperated them from the Valk...

Like a free pivot before movement, so the tank could spin unload, then take off. Seems very Eldarish to me making both the troops and tanks faster.

there could be a trap door out the bottom, would be cool to drop them out the bottom from a skimmer since they're lifted up, which makes a lot of sense to me for an assault style anyway

i believe skimmers already get free pivoting, at some point during their move

Also would be nice to turn all shuriken cannon into shrieker cannons ( causes pinning )

Atm there is no reason to ever take SC instead of scatter laser
( sure its assault but vehicles / walkers / weapon platform doesnt matter? )

EasyE wrote:there could be a trap door out the bottom, would be cool to drop them out the bottom from a skimmer since they're lifted up, which makes a lot of sense to me for an assault style anyway

i believe skimmers already get free pivoting, at some point during their move

All vehicles may pivot as much as they want during movement.

The problem arises though, that while pivoting does not count as movement for the purpose of shooting a vehicle's weapons, it is still movement. So, because of the disembarking rules, you cannot perform this maneuver: pivot, disembark, move, or move, disembark, pivot.

Even in the best case scenario for trying to assault out of an Eldar vehicle currently, it must be stationary for a turn in the face of enemy firepower, then you have to disembark from the rear hatch, which is likely not the closest part of the vehicle to the enemy, move, fleet, and hope to be in assault range. If you could get a "free" rotation that does not count as movement at all, then at least you could disembark that much closer to the enemy.

fluff wise i like the trapdoor concept allowing for assaults, which i don't believe any other skimmers have, and would make eldar a bit more unique on the field

i didnt know that you couldn't pivot/move

It may be simpler to go back to assaulting out of teleportation.

Make the Wave Serpents transport hold into a web-gate and is able to teleport troops inside to anywhere within 2" of the vehicle. The Eldar are so adept at the use of this technology that they may choose one action after teleporting out of the hold. The choices are:
1)Shoot
2)Run
3)Assault

This combines with the natuaral eldar grace and speed that allows them to deploy from the vehicle if it has moved 18" or less. For each 6" less vehicle movement the Troops are allowed another action(12" = 2 actions, 6"= 3 actions, 3 actions are the max)

Actually, it's easier to simply give Eldar Assault Ramps, which is a well-understood rule, rather than to create a new teleportation rule from scratch.

The ramps would call for the Wave Serpent models being redone.

Bad enough that IG are getting 5 magical fire points on chimeras. There are going to be huge arguments about how TLoS works with the turret. Not really fond of the idea of the arguments that would ensue about the ramps location. Also not fond of the idea of having to buy new Wave Serps or remodeling my old ones that extensively.


I'm beginning to believe that every Xenos army should have Species or Racial Tactics. Army wide special rules that help to define the abilities of the race. They seem to be going that route a bit anyway.

@ff: you'll get your wish, as 40k goes the route of WFB, with each army getting their own special rules.

Looks that way doesn't it.

a cool upgrade on a wave serpent would be a modified warp jump generator, that gives an assaulting team extra assault distance