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Guardians have to be improved to make them playable. They have to get a price reduction on par with Orks and Guard.

The question that needs attention... What should the shuiken catapult's rate of fire look like? The 12" range is miserable, but going up to 18" would make it same as the avenger catapult. Would 3 shots at 12" be acceptable? Would Avenger catapult be broken at range 24" assault 2?

Dire Avengers and guardians need to have different weapons to make them different units. No reasons to have redundancy amongst the troop choices.

Give the Guardians the 18" range with the Assault 2 shuricats.

With the dire avengers BS and armour save both being 1 pt better there is enough of a difference that its not problematic. If it's still a prob then give them haywire grenades.

Give the storm Guardians double barrled shuripistols that are range 12 with a pistol 2 profile.

How would that work?

I agree with the much needed BS4 on vehicles
( really need it! )

How about letting Assault-weapon carrying Eldar use Fleet and still be able to fire their weapons? It would certainly add to their mobility.

4 BS on vehicles

option for CC weapons on jetbikes

new assault skimmer transport for units like banshees/scorpions/harlies

lower guardian point cost by 1

raise max aspect squads to 12 (keep shining spears the way they are)

increase swooping hawk weapon to 4 STR AP 4, instead of 3 STR AP 5 to breath life back into them and make them at least somewhat useful for their cost, they are beautiful models and go so seldom used

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:How about letting Assault-weapon carrying Eldar use Fleet and still be able to fire their weapons? It would certainly add to their mobility.

Call the ability something like quick shot,

Like to see Guardians vs Dire Avengers kind of like this:

5-10 Guardians - non-FOC Troops
WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv4+
R18" S4 AP5 A2 Rending Shuricat
*ALL* may swap Shuricat for R24" S3 AP5 Lasblaster
non-Scoring
May add BS4 AGP with crew for +XX pts

5-10 Dire Avenger - Troops
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld9 Sv4+
R18" S4 AP5 A2 Rending Shuricat

Guardians would be a support unit, while Dire Avengers would be front-line. The DA would have the HTH ability to spearhead and fight. Their unit leaders would help further emphasize this:


Warlock - non-FOC HQ
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld9 Sv4++
Any Guardian or Wraithguard unit joined by a Warlock is Scoring.
- Can grant Stealth

DA Exarch
WS5 BS5 S3 T3 W2 I6 A3 Ld9 Sv4+
- Can take mirrorshield, diresword, etc.

Disclaimer: I didn't read the whole thread:

Here's my 2 cents (opinion only).

1. Aspect Warriors should have the following statline:
WS3 BS3 S3 T3 A1 I5 Ld9 Sv(varies)

HTH aspects get +2 WS
Shooting aspects get +2 BS
Exarchs would naturally get +1WS +1BS and +1Ld over their brethern.

2. Guardians need to be more flexible. I'd suggest: Heavy weapon may be bought for every 10 guardians in the squad OR special weapon may be bought for every 5 guardians in the squad. Maximum squad size 20. Guardians should be able to buy a Captain upgrade for the squad in addition to attaching a warlock. The Captain would add a power weapon to the squad at WS4, provide LD9 and alow the squad to purchase either: Scout, Outflank or Move Through Cover. Guardians themselves should be cheap. The upgrades should be moderately priced. A 20 man squad w/ captain, warlock and two heavy weapons should come out to around 225-250 points.

3. Vehicles need to be BS4.

4. Wraithguard should be T5 Sv2+/Feel no pain. Wraithcannon should be 18" range.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Like to see Guardians vs Dire Avengers kind of like this:

5-10 Guardians - non-FOC Troops
WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv4+
R18" S4 AP5 A2 Rending Shuricat
*ALL* may swap Shuricat for R24" S3 AP5 Lasblaster
non-Scoring
May add BS4 AGP with crew for +XX pts

5-10 Dire Avenger - Troops
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld9 Sv4+
R18" S4 AP5 A2 Rending Shuricat

Guardians would be a support unit, while Dire Avengers would be front-line. The DA would have the HTH ability to spearhead and fight. Their unit leaders would help further emphasize this:


Warlock - non-FOC HQ
WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld9 Sv4++
Any Guardian or Wraithguard unit joined by a Warlock is Scoring.
- Can grant Stealth

DA Exarch
WS5 BS5 S3 T3 W2 I6 A3 Ld9 Sv4+
- Can take mirrorshield, diresword, etc.

Honestly, I don't like the idea of rending shuricats on guardians, but it would be a good way to differentiate Dire Avenger catapults from Guardian catapults.

I want Crystal Targeting Matrix again. Along with 3 shot starcannons.

They need to do something about Falcons , atm they arnt anywhere as good as WL or WW.

Either increase pulsar to heavy 3 ,

or keep the heavy 2 and give it *lance rule
oh and bs4 :"P

or 1-2 per heavy slot

LunaHound wrote:They need to do something about Falcons , atm they arnt anywhere as good as WL or WW.

Either increase pulsar to heavy 3 ,

or keep the heavy 2 and give it *lance rule
oh and bs4 :"P

or 1-2 per heavy slot

One common thing among new books is that the designers are not afraid to make units very, very destructive. See: Ork Boyz, Thunderfire Cannon, Typhoon Missile Launchers, Almost any of the new Basilisk variants, Leman Russ Executioner, Land Raider Redeemer, etc.

Historically, Eldar have owned this kind of destructive power. Fire dragons are an excellent example. And yet many of the Eldar vehicles are falling behind, especially for their points cost and lack of durability with 5th ed skimmer rules. Also most Eldar infantry is not really destructive enough to justify their high points cost and fragility.

So, pretty much anything that would increase the killing power of Eldar is welcome.

I would really like to see it go back to small model count armies with high damage output and incredible maneuverability.

1. Increase the Avatars abilities in H t H combat ; per 2nd he could actually kill a bloodthirster. He should have at least 6 Attacks. A Flame Template such as a Redeemer profile would be incredible.

I would leave his baseline stats the same ; but increase him to a 6 attack base. Still keep the fearless rule ; but any squad that any squad within 12 automatically rallies regardless of squad size.

Make this guy a beast he is suppose to be one


2. Psychics; First off the eldar are suppose to be some of the greatest pskyers in the universe. Make them that ; increase ranges overall.

3. Exarchs ; they're not sergeants with nicer weapon ability.


Basically I'd like to see a return of incredibly low model count hihg power army.

Oh and Web Portals as that gak is cool.

The current Eldar Codex is not bad, it's just being left behind by the times. Here is my list of changes I would make:

-HQ-

Eldrad becomes more expensive or standard Seers become more useful. I vote towards the latter.

Autarchs choose which aspect they come from and make that Aspect Troops. They will stll have standard Wargear Options.

Pheonix Lords make their aspect troops. All Lords get FNP and and Inv. Standard in addition to what they are now with no points upgrade.

Avatar stays.

-Elites-

All Aspects become cheaper. Banshees should be no more then 14 points each. Fire Dragons get a template option.

-Troops-

DA become cheaper, Bladestorm becomes an anytime ability but prevents assaulting.

Guardians become cheaper, Conceal not only adds a cover save but improves the cover they are in.

Jetbikes stay the same.

Wave Serpents are no more then 70 points with Shuriken Cannon standard. Their field become an "always on" 4+ cover save. Eldar don't need to assault from their transports, just make them survivable enough to handle a round of shooting.

-Fast Attack-

Warp Spiders gain a template option. Preferably blast. Should get rending on their weapons.

Swooping Hawks get better shooting. Maybe their guns become Str. 4 and Rending.

Vypers get treated like new Sentinels, either stays the same and can scout or you get a heavyly armored version but loose scout. Base mode is cheaper.

Warwalkers move to FA, their shield now adds +1 cover save or counts aa a 4+ or both.

-Heavy-

Falcons stay they same but get a slight reduction in points.

Fire Prism stays the same with the exception of a -1 AP to all their shooting. Slightly Cheaper.

Support Batteries get an energy field that gives them a 4+ and +1 to any terrain they are in.

Dark Reapers get an option to ignore cover.

i would like to see harlequins have the option to ride jetbikes (except death jester) with jetbikes they are fielded as a FA slot

Some really good ideas here.

Mahu-I like your suggestions for the most part but would argue with a couple. The biggest would be Aspects getting cheaper. I'd rather they were improved through available options. This would help to keep them a low model count Elite army.

Hollisman- Your dead on as far as coming from an Eldar design philosophy.

WillyDstyle-Same as what I said to Hollisman.

Keesus-I like the concept of going back to base-lines and showing why things improve in which area. It might help to allieviate a lot of complaining about what various armies get.

I would tweek the base line a bit though, something like:

WS4 BS4 Str3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv (varied)

This thought comes from the Eldar are a long-lived but dying warrior race. Everything in their army should kick butt and be fairly expensive to represent this.

I think Guardians would be good at 10pts each with the following:

WS4 BS4 Str3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv5+

Equip: Shuricats w/18 range for Guardians, 2shot shuripistols and sword for StormGuardians, basic grenades for both types of guardians.

Optional equip: Guardian defenders may take a Weapons platform for every 10 men in the squad.
Storm Guardians get the same fusion and flamer option but also the option for Haywires at 3 pts each.


Dire avengers would be different by having BS5 I5 A2 Sv4+ , both plasma and haywire grenades, and the bladestorm ability would include making their shuricats rending. They would cost about 15pts each. If Asuremen is on the field they get the Furious assault ability.

I'll write up a new revised list of what would be coll later. Got things to do,IRL right now.

Mahu-I like your suggestions for the most part but would argue with a couple. The biggest would be Aspects getting cheaper. I'd rather they were improved through available options. This would help to keep them a low model count Elite army.

Aspect Warriors need to be cheaper to match the current trend in 40k where the only thing that doesn't seem to be getting cheaper are space marines (which should be accurate.

Nothing to drastic though, maybe a 1 or 2 point reduction per model combined with slightly better abilities. They are pretty good as is, but the main reason you see nobody field that many of them is because of their cost and the fact that they are not scoring.

That is also why I proposed Autarch and Pheonix Lords have the ability to confer either troops or scoring to the Aspects. I prefer troops as it reintroduces Biel-Tan lists, but with a choice. Farseers or Autarchs/Pheonix Lords. It would build greater list diversity among eldar players.

Hollisman- Your dead on as far as coming from an Eldar design philosophy.

I agree with him to a point. Eldar shouldn't be too low model count because at a certain point you are making them cost more just for the sake of making them cost more, because there is no amount of special rules that would adapt to less models. This is the mistake that the 3rd edition eldar codex made.

The only truly low model count Eldar armies should be aspect heavy ones, and that is because you are investing points on vehicles and wargear to get them to the objective, not on the units themselves.

Keesus-I like the concept of going back to base-lines and showing why things improve in which area. It might help to allieviate a lot of complaining about what various armies get.

I agree that the Eldar deserve a BS upgrade across the board. They should be at least even with and possibly be better then Marines in WS, BS, and Init. across the board. Guardians should be BS 4 WS 4 Init 5, Aspects should be BS 5 WS 5 Init 6, and Leaders should be BS 6/7, WS 6/7, Init 6/7.

Eldar (and Tau) should always be about quality over quantity.

I would agree with your changes.

I also think that the Eldar Holofield should be slightly cheaper, and the Eldar should have a universal vehicle upgrade that confers a 4+ cover save all the time.

So I am a long time eldar player, and I think that they could easily be fixed by going back to their second ed. roots. They were always supposed to be the best equipped race in the galaxy, and also the one with the most psykers. So what we do here is too fold.

1. Bring back mid-level psykers. Make it like an elite for 1-3 or an HQ for 1-3. They get one or two psychic (*rant* if GW insists on spelling it 'Psyker' with a k shouldn't it also by 'Psykik' powers ??? However that sounds stupid and like you've been reading too many books in the 'Magick and Candles' part of the bookshop. They are psychics.*rant*) powers, and maybe warlock powers too; the squad can also be split up to join other squads. This way you can put a doom toting fortune casting 'Master warlock' (Farseer apprentice?) with each elite squad. Your shooty squads all have their own dedicated 'guider', and the mounted squads have someone to fortune them (and put them in cover) the turn they hop out of their transport. Also the actual Farseer needs to be able to cast all the powers he buys; regardless. See writings of Inquistitor Czevak. Just imagine if every scorpion squad was fortuned in combat... and if every banshee struck a doomed target... and if every bladestorm were guided. *drool*

2. Old Skool (really?) guardians could access an armoury (like every other army has, you know?), so you could make squads that had Power Fists and melta guns in them. Guardians either need to be able to get up-gunned or up-sworded. (2-3 power weapons or fists, special weapons to compliment the heavy platform).

Add the option of taking a Wraithlord as an HQ and give it it's own set of options. The current 'dex does state in the fluff that Wraithlords can lead Eldar incursions.

Maybe call it a Wraithprince

He'd have higher WS, BS, a 4th wound, and a 2+ save. Also the ability to let friendly Eldar units within a certain range use his Ld, which is 10.

For something that good though, he should cost a good sum.

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:Add the option of taking a Wraithlord as an HQ and give it it's own set of options. The current 'dex does state in the fluff that Wraithlords can lead Eldar incursions.

Maybe call it a Wraithprince

He'd have higher WS, BS, a 4th wound, and a 2+ save. Also the ability to let friendly Eldar units within a certain range use his Ld, which is 10.

For something that good though, he should cost a good sum.

... and while your at it he doesn't suffer from wrath sight and gets the options of (instead of 2 weapons) taking one of the Support Weapon Battery guns or a close combat weapon that gives him extra attacks (+d6?)

Nah - just let him pick an Aspect for a statline bonus and extra ability. For example:

Former Banshee Exarch - must take wraithsword, but gains +1I and Fleet.

Former Hawk Exarch - must take Scatter Laser, but is Jump Infantry and gains H&R

and so on...

Oh man, a Wraithlord with Hawk wings would be an epic model.

Former Scorpion Exarch- Must take Wraithsword and Shuriken Cannon (or whatever Shuriken thing he can take), but gains +1A and causes Instant Death.

Former Reaper Exarch- Must take EML, but gains 1 additional shot when firing any weapon.

Id like the wraithlord as a leader, kind of like the beastman shaggoth.

Having a base aspect warrior statline, then paying points to upgrade to whatever aspect?

Also like the idea of temoplate dragons - maybe the option to take 'fusion gun or dragon breath flamer' in their entry, or can fire the gun as either a melta or a flamer, as per Ork Burnas.

Xenith wrote:Having a base aspect warrior statline, then paying points to upgrade to whatever aspect?

It'd have the base Wraithlord statline, then the option to choose the aspect that it was in life. However, there are upgrades that it MUST take in order to have the traits of that aspect. So if it would have been a Howling Banshee in life, for example, it'd have to buy a Wraithsword and nothing else, but it would gain +1I and Fleet. Only one aspect can be chosen, and it can only take the upgrades that are required to be in the aspect, nothing else can be chosen.

If Wraithlords did become HQs, I'd certainly turn to Space Elfs.

After thinking about this a bit more - IMO the key to making a flavourful Eldar codex while retaining flexibility is to properly define the roles of the units in the army - and revise the statlines and abilities to suit. I think that the Eldar army should return to the "Craftworld Eldar Codex" archetypes.

Archetype 1. Ulthwe - Guardian Heavy:

This is the citizen's army. Realistically, I've always felt that using only guardian and guardian equipment is more than enough for an entire list - and I would like to see that made viable somehow - i.e. No aspect warriors, wraith constructs or harlequins.

HQ - Avatar, Farseer, Autarch.
Troops - Guardians, Dire Avengers (according to fluff, these guys are everywhere), Guardian Jetbikes, Rangers
Elites - Wraithguard, Harlequins, Dragons, Scorpions, Banshees
Fast Attack - Warwalkers, Vypers, Shining spears, Spiders, Hawks
Heavy Support - Fireprism, Falcon, Wraithlord, Dark Reapers

Heavy support batteries made into upgrade for Guardian squads. As a backbone unit - but to retain the flavour of a citizen's militia, Guardians are cheap. Their equipment is expensive. 5 points for existing statistics is a good starting point. They need to be far more flexible however. Giving them upgrade commanders to boost their LD while offering "skills" like the IG's order system would go far to improve the humble Guardian. At 10-20 men strong, with a conceal save, heavy weapon for every 10 men, or special weapon for every 4 men, or up to 3 support weapons - even the 12" range on the shuricats isn't a deal breaker. The problem with Guardians now is that they only have one mode of function, and they suck at it - being slow, fragile and short ranged.

Being slow can be fixed with alternate deploy rules made available through the squad sgt upgrades. Fragile can be mitigated by making conceal a +2 to cover saves.

Archetype 2. Biel Tan - Swordwind - Unlocked by a Pheonix Lord as HQ.

Troops sharing same type as the pheonix lord are fearless.
Aspect warriors are scoring and may be taken as troop choices as well as their original force organization slot.
Compulsory troops slots MUST be filled by aspect warriors.
Guardians become 0-2
All non-vehicle, non aspect warrior choices become 0-1

Archetype 3. Iyanden - Unlocked by selecting the Bonesinger upgrade for a Farseer

Wraithguard are scoring and may be taken as troop choices as well as elites.
Wraithlords may be taken as elites as well as heavy support choices.
Compuslory troops slots MUST be filled by wraithguard.
All guardian choices besides waveserpents become 0-1
All aspect warrior choices become 0-1

Archetype 4. Alaitoc - Unlocked by selecting Exodite Lord upgrade for an Autarch

Rangers are automatically upgraded to pathfinders.
Compulsory choices must be filled by rangers.
Harlequins are 0-3 in this list as opposed to 0-1 in all others.
Non vehicle models may infiltrate.

Archetype 5. Saim Hann - Unlocked by selecting Wind Rider Chief upgrade for an Autarch

Guardian jetbikes and mounted guardians as troops ONLY.
Any non-vehicle choices selected must have a transport - choices without vehicles may not be selected.
Entire army may outflank.

Keep in mind, this is only a framework of ideas.

lol, the Striking Scorpion Wraithlord I modelled has a Scorpion's Claw in place of a sword...

I like the idea of a Wraithlord Champion as well as the mid-grade Seer-locks. They could use a power each from the warlock and farseer lists; buying them as an HQ selection and allowing them to stay together as a council (not retinue) or be distributed among other units (warlocks, aspects, or guardian squads) would give some great flexibility.

I'd like to have the Phoenix Lords make their aspects scoring units. In addition to making the squad they join Fearless, they make other squads in their aspect Stubborn.

They also need to be brought up to standard since their roles are mixed up at the moment. Maugan Ra, for instance, is better fielded with Harlies than Reapers. I'd like to see them allow aspects to upgrade en masse, like Asurmen allowing Bladestorming every round or Fuegan allowing all dragons to trade fusion guns for dragonsbreath flamers.

Guardians should definitely have plasma grenades and I like the idea of 1 HWP per 10 or 1 special (flamer, fusion, power weapon, chainsword, powerfist?) per 5 models. I'd love a return of the eldar powerfist. I'd also like to see their armor save go up a point. Shurikens should have 18" range or be 12" assault 3 to compensate. As it is, they're almost purely backline troops (yes, they ARE defenders, but they are still soldiers) and are only taken for that heavy platform.

I think a squad sergeant upgrade (a sort of Autarch-in-training) that allows guardians to swap Assault shurikens for Rapid Fire - they'd get 24" range - would be a good idea. Or give them the Hit and Run USR if they're Stormies.

How about giving the Wave Serpents and Falcons a "Pivot" ability.

This ability would allow the transport to pivot in place at the start of their turn, and disembark troops as if it had not moved. Allowing those troops to assult that turn.

This would remove the need for new eldar vehicles with assault ramps.

My next suggestion is to give the Wraithguard a Close Combat option. Go old school and call them Ghost/Spirit warriors. I highly doubt we will ever see a plastic Wraithguard box if none of them have options to swap out weapons. Say each wraithguard has the choice to be equipped with a wraithcannon or a "Wraithpistol" and PW.

Rangerrob-I like this pivot ability but would implement it a bit differently.

I'd tie this ability to the Vectored Thrusters and then make it to where the wave serp has to spin at the end of the movement phase allowing unirts with the acrobatic ability to assault out of them as if they were opened topped. I think it might need a limiting factor but maybe exposing rear armour is enough of a drawback. The rule should have in it that the Farthest edge from the front starting point has to be less than 12".

I like the Storm Wraiths Idea, too.

Sazzlefrats wrote: Why do space marine scouts cost so little and these buggers are 50% more? or 100% more?!

Because their sniper rifles rend on 5's or more on HITS. Other than that, I agree with you. I mean, look at guardians.Come on, 8 pts for what amounts to a Guardsman with an assault weapon? I mean, the HW with the move and shoot rule would be good if they weren't so expensive.

-A.

Honestly, pathfinders are overpriced for what they can do, and for how they really have very few targets that they're more effective against than other unit types for the same points cost (monstrous creatures mostly). If I didn't need a (relatively) inexpensive unit for claiming back-field objectives, I probably wouldn't take pathfinders.

It's just that the other options for the same job are not really any less expensive, and aren't any better for doing the same job. Guardian squads come in at 85 points minimum, and they're more fragile, and less destructive, and that's for the equivalent of a IG squad with a heavy bolter and no special weapon, and no 24" range on their basic guns, with a stat bonus (+1 I) that does them no good in their preferred battlefield role. The IG squad costs less points and can gain the benefit of orders as well as having assault grenades (something the Eldar could potentially actually make use of).