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Just what it says. With all of the 2nd ed goodness popping up in 5th, "What will the Eldar Gain/Lose in the next Codex?"

Its still probably a ways off but its never to early to start dreaming/wishing. Enough positive thought might bring something cool into reality.

My first five changes are:

1) Wraithlords can carry the D-Cannon, Vibro cannon, or the Death spinner cannon as the primary gun.

2)The Solitaire returns and gives the Harlies a teleport ability.

3)Have the Autarch make the Eldar stubborn and move the pheonix lords and avatar to Apoc like whats rumored for the C'Tan. This leaves room for the exarchs to inmprove.

4) Base Eldar BS is 4. They've lived through thousands of years of warfare and like basic IG? I don't care if they are citizen militia. A 1000 years of being on active reserve you'd know how to shoot.

5)Shuriken catapults all get the 18" range


That's where I'd start. I'd like to hear what more experienced players (I mainly play my Tau) want. Especially with whats been coming out.

To further differentiate Eldar from SM and Tau, they need to be much more deadly in the 12' zone.

With the run rule adding speed to enemy units, universal cover saves and less deadly deep strike and more common deep strikes, the eldar maneuver advantage is largely gone. Falcon gunships are less survivable and have less firepower. Lastly the change to hold objectives versus eliminating enemies means much of the eldar infantry must sit alone unsupported on dispersed objectives.

Tied down, unable to gain much of a speed advantage and unable to bring specialized units to bear on the desired targets makes the eldar glass cannon too weak.


To compensate, the eldar need more firepower as befits their fluff.
Shurican Catapults need to be Assault 4, Pistols 2 and Cannons 6.
Scatter lasers should be A5, Star Cannons back to A3.

Wraithguard need a close combat upgrade option, such as a force pike, and blast for wraith cannons. 36 points a model is still over priced for what they currently bring to a table. They should be comparable to oblits and terminators, but instead are currently walking fire magnets like ogryn.

Assault aspects need to be able to assault out of transports. In a straight up melee banshees and scorps will win against their weight in marines or orks, but it is rare they get the chance when they must walk, and the specialization between them makes multiple units difficult to field in a take all comers force.

Defenders need to be able to take heavy weapons platforms. Distort cannons need large blast templates. Sonic lances should work like their titan cousins. Spinners need a larger template.

Storm Squads need to be rethought. They die from shooting and in assault only do well against guard and tau. With the new deadlier close combat phase, they don't belong and I've never seen them fielded. Increasing their close combat skills makes them too much like scorpions, and defenders already bring firepower. They should be retired for now.

Warp Spiders need their flame templates back, and an exarch ability to deep strike like a drop pod.

War Walkers need to be able to upgrade to a single D cannon, vibro or weaver.

Falcons need BS 4.

I like the increased firepower idea. I keep telling people that coversaves and the run rule in 5 th have about halved shooting effectiveness. I like pistol 2 but think assault 3 catapults and and assault 4 rending cannons is a little closer to bieng balanced. Thats because I realllly want bs 4 for the eldar.

I think instead of everything getting the higher rate of Fire(ROF) that the eldar get some cool cover denying weapons. Heck bring back the crystal targeting matrix as a vehicle upgrade that removes cover saves at -1 BS. This last bit would only be if the base BS goes up to 4(Reallly want it).

I completely agree about the wraithguard pricing but am unsure of weather a points drop or weapon upgrade is the way to go.

Aspects are pretty good but should have the option for warlocks. I think that the warlocks or exarchs should have a deny morale break power that they can use once per game where if an enemy is going to break and leave them exposed to enemy fire that they can keep them locked in combat until the next assault phase.

I like the heavy weapons in squads idea but leave the the templates the same but have them deny cover. Make all deathspinner variants rending? Just an idea.

I actually like the Storms with an enhanced warlock. I still field them regularly in my mechdar as cheap units that can still do a number all around. They won't take out an elite squad but do ok against any basic troop as long as you use them as intended.

War walkers are just fine as they are if BS goes up to 4(realllly want it!).


The conceal ability either needs to be +2 cover save or it confers the stealth ability(minus infiltrate) upon the unit joined. Take your pick.

BBUUUMMMPPP

I'll give a few ideas and then respond to the previous comments

1) Make guardians cheaper. The are to expensive for the very limited utility.

2) Some slight change to the shuriken catapult would be nice but I doubt anything is going to change.

3) Lower cost slightly on the wave serpent. In 5th ed transports all around are getting point cost reduction. 35 point rhinos and soon to be 55 point chimeras from 50/85 base respectively.

4) For the love of god make vyper jetbikes have 2 wounds toughness 4 and a 3+ save and not some crappy armor rating. They will be so much more effective.

5) Bring back the Solitaire Harlequins and give harlequins rending for free now since it isn't nearly as good. There is no reason to give him a teleport ability it makes absolutely no sense. Not even other harelquins interact with the solitaire because he represents slaanesh. He would have to be an independent character that is unable to join units. Give him eternal warrior or something so he can't be oneshotted though.

6) Since this is warhammer 40k cover save edition, the eldar need access to a reliable source of template weapons. I suggest allowing warp spiders to switch their death spinners from ranged to template weapons. Remember back in 2nd ed they all had flamers. (make an I check or die flamers to boot!!)




In response to the previous posters

Sometype of assaulting transport is needed or a special rule allowing assault combats to charge out of serpents is totally necessary. Not having anything sucks

I think BS 3 Guardians makes sense. They are workers first before they are fighters so they don't keep in practice I guess. Also mechanic wise in game its a nice distinction between them aspect warriors and exarchs.

I'm on the fence about Storm Guardians to be honest, having a warlock with Enhance is still pretty handy.

As for the superior firepower comments I don't know. I've always seen Eldar as a finely crafted knife of an army. They can do anything exceedingly well but can't do everything at once. If their firepowr is buffed to much then it will reduce their close combat capabilities. An eldar army should not be able to outshoot Guard and out combat marines. They should be able to do 1 or the other. Its how they've always played.

I highly doubt Avatar and phoenix lords are going to be moved to Apoc. I mean they have been in the game since 2nd ed. Maybe Phoenix lords wold function like marine special characters do now. Jain Zar allows for banshees to be taken as troops and so on.

I agree something needs to be done with falcons.

Actually, I could see aspects moving to bs5 and exarchs at bs6 so the guardians bs 4 isn't to over the top. The Eldar will never be able to out gun the IG just due to lack of numbers and shorter ranges of their small arms.

I can see guardians costing about 6pts or still at 8pts with bs4. I think that they should get Haywire grenades as upgrade an option though.

I completely agree with the vyper idea. The squadron rule and av 10 just hurts them a little to much. They definitely need something, maybe something like smoke launchers or disruption pods

The assault transport makes them Dark Eldar. I like the idea but would need some level of differentiation. But whatever happens a points drop on all of the vehicles and maybe their upgrades is in order.


The majority of my ideas are aimed at reducing the farseer dependence. There are so many HQs but how many really get used. Why buy a 200 point Pheonix Lord when you can have another farseer. Increase basic bs and doom/guideseers aren't so mission critical. There are a bunch of cool leaders but the combos are always farseer with something else it seems like

I do like the Phoenix lords helping to define the army/craftworld but am unsure if that is the way it will go.

I have no problem with the solitaire as an IC but then he could just join the unit any way. What special abilities would you give the Solitaire?

Out of many of the changes in 5th, the thing that bugs me the most is that fleet of foot doesn't mean as much as it used to. In fact for eldar, fleet doesn't really give them that much use at all.

So perhaps as an incentive for an eldar player to choose to run instead of shoot. For instance (this is just off the top of my head), perhaps there could be an upgrade or ability that gives eldar units a 4+ or 5+ cover save if they move more than 6 inches in one turn, or as an alternative, +1 to their current cover save (making a 4+ a 3+).

Another alternative that might also work in the favor of the eldar to make them quicker is to allow all fleet units to roll 2d6 for running instead of just a single d6. This would give an edge over normal running units and would indeed make them 'faster'.


These are just a few quick thoughts so take them as you will, but eldar really need an edge over other armies in the fleet/running area of the army.

Maybe they can run AND shoot?

Upping the shots of the starcannon by 1 making it 3 again.

Upping the shots of Reapers from 2 to 3 (Lootas can shoot better at the moment, come on.

Upping Wraithlord attacks by 1 to 3.

Agree with the Wraithlord kit, D-Cannon and other stuff would be nice and possible with a plastic heavy weapon kit (aka interchangeable)

Warp spiders -> templates (and new models!!!!)
only having warlocks for destructors is a bit silly imo.

I like the wraithguard as they are right now. Tough to crack and deadly if you come too near with the wrong units but not über in all regards. Maybe a bit cheaper would make sense. They'll get a plastic kit, so we can expect to get good rules

BS 4 is not needed imo, most of the units have BS>3 anyway.

Defenders should be the prime unit for holding an objective, maybe giving them, let's see, defensive grenades and some sort of improved cover save would be nice, offensive capabilities mustn't be as good as dire avengers.

Plastic upgrade/combi kit for falcon and fire prism is logical.

That's for now, all rather conservative, but well...

Greets
Schepp himself

The problem with the current codex is that each unit has a singular role and sometimes they aren't even very good for that role.

Lets examine Swooping Hawks, they are survivable if you deepstrike and jump back out in the same round. However... their shooting sucks, their grenade is mediocre for the at least 100pts you are spending. In the past you had an exarch that was scary in combat, but the unit was otherwise weak. I miss that still. Now their designated roll is to kill vehicles, and die the next turn... pretty lame actually. One kitted up unit is usually more than most vehicles.

Vipers.... bs3? really... open topped really? points break please?

Warpspiders are alright. But then they weren't nerfed from the previous codex either.

Harlequins, they are fine, god knows why they can't take wave serpents though.

Striking Scorpions, yeah.... decent in combat, slow as hell, give them fleet. If not make them a lot better, show me t4, I know you won't, so give them fleet.

Banshees, they are fine.

Firedragons are fine.

Wraithguard... hmmm damn tough unit, probably leave them just the way they are.

Dire Avengers... they suck great in combat, but cost too much once you give them all the toys, so I'd say reduce the cost of all the abilities, especially and well just the close combat ones, its not like they are that awesome anyways.

Defender guardians, make the weapon platforms twin-linked. Or drop their points to 6 a peice.

Storm Guardians, probably drop their points to 6 a peice.

Jetbike guardians, just fine as is.

Rangers/Pathfinders... really leadership 8? lame should be 9. Why do space marine scouts cost so little and these buggers are 50% more? or 100% more?!

I thinkthe scatter laser and the elm need to be switched in point values and then the star cannon and brightlance need to be drop 5pts in cost.

Vehicles are expensive for the hunk of junks they are. Naked fire prisms are the way to go, everything else... toss it, so drop the price on falcons and serpents a hair.

Everything else is ok. I wonder why you can only take haywire grenades on swooping hawks, i miss that on storm guardians.

3)Have the Autarch make the Eldar stubborn and move the pheonix lords and avatar to Apoc like whats rumored for the C'Tan. This leaves room for the exarchs to inmprove.

i see your point with the avatar, but eldar need a hard hitting monster like this.
where in the hell did you get the idea of moving the phoenix lords from?
they have been about for years, and can make a nice difference in games, but not one that causes an uproar.

things being moved to apoc are usually due to being somewhat stronger than they should be, which is not the case here.

Durandal wrote:
Wraithguard need a close combat upgrade option, such as a force pike, and blast for wraith cannons. 36 points a model is still over priced for what they currently bring to a table. They should be comparable to oblits and terminators, but instead are currently walking fire magnets like ogryn.

I agree. Why not have an assault option? A wraithblade and 2 base attacks at the same points cost would be a welcome addition.

Focused Fire yes haywire grenades are totally needed. I completely forgot about that!

As for the solitaire age he would have to function like a monstrous creature in that he CANNOT join units. as for his stats I seem to have misplaced my 2nd ed eldar codex. But I'll put it this way, in the old rules he had WS 9 BS 9 and he was probably one of the most powerful character sin the whole game and could probably take any single model with the exception of greater daemons. He was an unstoppable killing machine to put it mildly.

I would hire a bunch of strutting louts to swamp them before the battle and stick chewing gun in the works of their weapons so that they will no longer slaughter all of my forces before they get into close combat. I try transports and they get blown up. I try swamping them with masses of troops and they bring multi-lasers and dire avengers. I bring terminators and they bring howling banshees. Who is so incompetent that they can't win with Eldar?

focusedfire wrote:With all of the 2nd ed goodness popping up in 5th, "What will the Eldar Gain/Lose in the next Codex?"

Lately, GW is more unpredictable, so it's a little hard to guess what will happen. I think GW un-nerf Wraithlords somewhat and un-suck Wraithguard, along with repricing their Grav Tanks and Jump Infantry to be a bit more competitive.

Of course, what I *want* is an Eldar Codex that does a better job of integrating Craftworlds.

WRT your suggestions...

1. With the Heavy AGPs getting embiggened, and the WL now being plastic, I don't see WL-carried D-Cannons or such. I do think that WLs wraithsight will become less punitive, but not go away entirely.

2. The Solitaire is a problem model, with equally problematic Fluff. The evolution of the Pariah and Eldar psyker sensitivity Fluff makes it inconceivable that he would be able to hide in plain sight on a Craftworld. I could see him re-imagined as a Harlequin Special Character that you can only take if you take at least 1 unit of Harlequins, but reconciling the old Fluff with the new Fluff is pretty much impossible. I can't imagine where the Teleport ability comes from.

3. The Avatar and Phoenix Lords can stay on in the main Codex - they're just as characterful as the broad cast of named SCs in things like C: SM. The Autarch should do more, but it's a bit hard to say what, as Exarches have similarly large Fluff problems, being Eldar who became trapped in the Path of the Warrior.

4. Base Eldar vehicles and AGPs can be BS4 - it simplifies things by making nearly all shots hit on a 4+, and can be explained by smart weapons systems. But Guardian Infantry can be BS3 for contrast. The deeper problem is why, a dying race, chooses to build their forces around non-expert fighters. Guardian infantry should be exceedingly rare, as a last-ditch kind of thing, but the rules don't do a good job of showing this. Making the Guardian unit 5 to 10 models would help, as would expanding options for non-Avenger Aspects as Troops.

5. Shuricats are OK as 12" or 18" guns, it really doesn't matter that much. 18" is nice, as it shows that they're not Pistols and they're not Storm Bolters. But make them (and all other Shuriken weapons) Piercing with AP1 on a 6 to-hit. More importantly, change the minimum save from a 5+ to a 4+, to reflect how valuable every Eldar is and needs to be protected. I like to see Guardians as non-Scoring Troops that don't take a FOC slot, but still give up a KP when killed.

To be honest, I've shifted focus from Eldar to Guard, and I'm expecting a solid Guard Codex to some out in May, so I'm good for the next few years, I think.

@Warpcrafter-It's not about whether the can still win. It's about the increasingly limited variety of competitive builds.

Also, with whats coming out in the new Codices and the return to so much 2nd ed power its a good time to start speculating about what will be done to bring the Eldar up to 5th ed speed.

@ Sazzelfrats- nice summation, I still want to see an updated crystal targeting matrix that removes coversaves and a rework of farseer/warlock powers(Make conceal add 2 to cover or something)

@Schepp-I like the spiders idea

@Dumplingman-I agree about bringing back the solitaire and thanks for the refresher on her abilities. Do you remember how many attacks she got?

If you made Warpspiders into flamer wielding troops including an exarch with a heavy flamer or a twin-linked flamer, then Swoooping hawks could better fill the role of a unit with high shot, high(er) S, low AP weaponry. At the moment, Swooping hawks are not good against any target, which is a shame because some people really like their style, me not included though. New models, new rules can also work with them.
Imagine the faces of horde players when a gang of 10 Warp spiders unloads their guns. If Horde armies become a viable choice (thank god!) then the Eldar need some answers. Warp spiders and Swooping hawks could be that answer.

Greets
Schepp himself

dumpling man, just a quick summary of the solitare back then:

M 6 - WS - 8 - BS 8 - S 4 - T 4 - W 3 - I 9 - A 3 - LD 10

Cost: 93 points.
Weapons: None.
Armour: Holo-suit.
Wargear: A solitare may have up to 3 wargear cards.

A solitare may be given additional equipment chosen from the armour, assult weapons, special weapons and grendaes section of the wargear list.

The problem isn't thier codex is 5th edition. I would wait for 6th edition and play other systems.

Everyone jokes about 6th ed. I honestly am starting to believe there will never be such a thing. Ever.

I'm starting to get the feeling that 40Ks 25 anniversary will be its swan song as 50K is introduced to celebrate the milestone.

GW will finish its commitment to update the remaining codices(probably not but one can hope)to keep its customer base happy(maintain cashflow) as they get everyone accustomed to the new system and ramp up production on new armies.

JD21290 thanks for the stat clarification it has been a long time. I just have bad memories of a 12 model harlequinn army beating everything else in the game.

Does anyone think move shoot move (The old crystal targeting matrix) will return in a limited form. Like for a total 12" move that is made in a max of 6" increments?

BUMP^

Dang it Focusedfire, I did not see your thread before starting mine.


I was thinking since the Eldar is supposed to be an army of specialist, each aspect should incredible in their job. I would suggest the following changes in the next codex:

Dire Avengers: Same

Banshees: WS 5 base, WS 6 for Exarch

Fire Dragons: Same

Striking Scorpions: WS 5 base, WS 6 Exarch

Shining Spears: CC weapon (for 2 attacks), WS 5 base, WS 6 Exarch

Swooping Hawks: Las Blaster is assault 3

Warp Spiders: Str 6 AP ~ Template Weapons.

Dark Reapers: BS 5, BS 6 for Exarch

I would also drop the points for Starcannons and Bright Lances by 5 points each because of how common cover is now. I have no idea how to point out the new aspect warriors, but such changes would help the Eldar to retain being soem of the most skilled warriors in the universe.

More than anything i would like to see each of the Phoenix Lords stay in normal games, and for them to allow their aspect to count as scoring troops. C:SM get all kinds of fun special characters to define to "flavor" of their army and to take one of the major Flufy bits out of normal games from Eldar would be crule punishment. How fun would it be to run an Howling Banshee army, or to strike Fear when they see squads of Fire Dragons pile out of Wave Serpents and then laugh when you tell them that they are scoring. The Phoenix Lords added a Flavor to Eldar Armies before and lets face it, Eldar only really have the Guardian Jet bike and Dire Avengers as good all round scoring troops. Guardians die too quickly and rangers are only good then the Objective is in cover, and if you have to move them to it hope you have a transport or they can stay in cover the whole way else there toast. The Phoenix Lords could push the Eldar away from the Mech Eldar phase and allow for more diverse competitive lists to be fielded.

The Phoenix Lord army works until you consider a Dark Reaper army...
____

@adeptsister: I see you made a new topic for your specialist Eldar. My reply is here.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The Phoenix Lord army works until you consider a Dark Reaper army...

Or a Swooping hawk army that does nothing but bounce every turn, distributing pieplates like they're going out of fashion, then nicking all the objectives on the last turn.

@Focusedfire: Me and a friend used to field a harlequin army back during 2nd edition. 30 'quins and a greater harlequin; almost impossible to shoot, unbeatable in cc and, icing on the cake, gave up a max of 6 victory points. Very, very broken. Oh how we laughed

Well, those good old days are gonna have to make a bit of a comeback. Thats if the Eldar are going to remain playable in 5th ed as the new codices come out.

Another change I'd make is that the avatar gives units with Los to it the furious assault rule as well as making them stubborn.

Since every other army is getting to ignore vehicle shooting restrictions, Eldar skimmers should move 24 and be able to fire all weapons and disembark.

Instead of the moving so far and shoot. I'd like for them to move that far and disembark troops that still shoot, run, or assault but only one of these.


Edited for corrected sentence

All-bouncing Hawks simply wouldn't be fun to play against, so I can't see it.