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J.Black wrote:I think it has been mentioned on another thread but, i would love to see taking a phoenix lord let you take their aspect as troops. Dragon, Banshee army anyone?

I will take Maugen Ra every game, with 2 max units of Reapers to anchor my DZ. As replacements for Rangers/Pathfinders, they are completely worth the points increase.
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focusedfire wrote:Disagree on the 4+sv. It would make them Tau but with fleet and decent initiative

To your proposed changes I'd like to add that the Wraithguard need to drop by about 5pts per model.

Guardians moving to Sv4+ is fine. Eldar still have adequate R18" S4 guns instead of kick-ass R30" S5 guns, so Tau gunnery *is* better.

Wraithguard could drop more than that. The real problem is that there are too many ordinary Aspects in Elites that should simply move to Troops a la CSM. If Eldar Elites are the non-Craftworlder auxiliaries (Harlies, Wraithguard, Rangers, & Wraithlords), it's no problem.

Statwise, how about this:

WS4 BS4 Guardians

WS4 BS5 Dragons, Reapers, Spiders, Hawks (BS6 Exarchs)
WS5 BS4 Avengers, Banshees, Scorpions, Spears (WS6 Exarchs)

WS6 BS6 Autarch

JohnHwangDD wrote:Guardians moving to Sv4+ is fine. Eldar still have adequate R18" S4 guns instead of kick-ass R30" S5 guns, so Tau gunnery *is* better.

Wraithguard could drop more than that. The real problem is that there are too many ordinary Aspects in Elites that should simply move to Troops a la CSM. If Eldar Elites are the non-Craftworlder auxiliaries (Harlies, Wraithguard, Rangers, & Wraithlords), it's no problem.

Statwise, how about this:

WS4 BS4 Guardians

WS4 BS5 Dragons, Reapers, Spiders, Hawks (BS6 Exarchs)
WS5 BS4 Avengers, Banshees, Scorpions, Spears (WS6 Exarchs)

WS6 BS6 Autarch

I'll still disagree on the base armor save of the guardians. I'd like for there to be a reason for the guardians to take the warlocks.

The stats are dead on though. Only thing I'd add is that Exarchs and Autarchs should have S4 T4 to represent the benefits of following the Eldar warrior path for so long.


I also like the Idea of taking the Pheonix lords out of the already to busy HQ slot and make them like an advisor. You take one and they with his/her retinue count as a troop choice if you want. The restriction would be that no more than 2 such advisor/special characters may be taken in a game unless it is an Apoc game.


How does that sound?

TBH, I really could care less about the PLs, as I'd rather focus on the core list to enable skittles Biel-Tan.

I never needed PLs to kick ass before, so I don't foresee needing them if the Codex works right.

Unfortunately, GW seems to be taking a different tack, and I find that to be irritating.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Statwise, how about this:

WS4 BS4 Guardians

WS4 BS5 Dragons, Reapers, Spiders, Hawks (BS6 Exarchs)
WS5 BS4 Avengers, Banshees, Scorpions, Spears (WS6 Exarchs)

WS6 BS6 Autarch

On a d6 system making eldar exarchs BS6 is pushing crazy talk...unless their points increased to compensate, or squad size shrinks (but they are fairly small squads already). Eldar need a points rework in the other direction. I'm up for new rules/units genral points redux but an army that gets to reroll failed to hits all the time...different story.

Um, IIRC, BS6 misses 1/12 (2+, 4+) instead of 1/6.

BS10 is 1/36 (2+, 2+).

BS6 has almost no in-game impact over BS5, but feels cooler in the same way that WS6 is better than WS5.

Yes, there's some effect, but not much.

Actually BS 6 means that you hit on a 6+ on the reroll, so it's just a little bit better.

I'm also of the opinion that the aspect warriors' stats are fine how they are now, and they maybe need an adjustment in points or maybe special rules. The thing is, that they are already much, much better at their given role than a space marine is, for only a slight increase in points value.

It's when you compare them to orks that they fall short... but you can say the same of almost any unit from any other codex.

If you must improve Aspect Warriors...

The easiest way imo to improve the CC aspect warriors is to bump up their number of attacks. They already have high I so they will strike first, they just should have their base attacks increased from 1 to 2. That way they have a chance to do more damage to hords and gives the illusion that they are better skilled (ala more attacks) then you SM.

As for the shooting aspect warriors i would suggest giving them all targeters so they can mesure and then choose their target.

Then again I beleive just being able to have more of them (via points drop) would solve most of thier issues without the stat changes.

Personally, here were my stats for Autarchs:

WS:7 BS:7 S:3 T:3(4) W:3 I:7 A:3 LD:10 SV:3+

And then Phoenix Lords go to:

WS:8 BS:8 S:4 T:4 I:8 A:4 LD:10 SV:2+/5++

And then the Avatar would be:

WS:10 BS:8 S:7 T:7 W:4 I:8 A:4 LD:10 SV:3+/4++

In my opinion, all shooty Exarchs and Aspects should get -1WS and +1BS (Like Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, etc. with respective points increase) and fighty Exarchs and Aspects should get +1WS and -1BS (Like Banshees, Striking Scorpions, etc. with point cost increases to match)

How about nerfing the Shuri Cannons to S4 AP 5 but giving them a ROF of 6. That way for a low price Falcons can have a defensive weapon that can shoot with the Pulsar. Kind of a LR Crusader.

M.

I feel like the Eldar have been nerfed enough. It's cool idea but not the directing that I'd hope GW takes.

To me, it makes more sense to classify the whole turret as a single weapon. It's not like it gets to split its fire. The second weapon fires at the same target as the pulse laser. I think that with bumping all shuricats to 18" range would fix the Falcon nicely.

The only other thing I'd change is to make it a tranport option for farseer and retinue. Maybe also for a Pheonix Lords and small scoring retinue of his aspect.

focusedfire wrote:

To me, it makes more sense to classify the whole turret as a single weapon. It's not like it gets to split its fire. The second weapon fires at the same target as the pulse laser. I think that with bumping all shuricats to 18" range would fix the Falcon nicely.

I agree with this.

Also, I think JHDD suggested this, but perhaps on a to-wound roll of 6, the shot counts as AP2?

So for example, a Shuriken Catapult would be:

So R18" Str 4 Ap 4 Assault 2, Shuriken*

Shuriken-Any 'To-Wound' rolls of 6 count as AP2

This would extend to Shuriken Cannons and Shuriken Pistols, and any other Shuriken weapons I may have missed in my stupor.

Anyone have any opinions on the stat bumps I suggested?

@Vlad-In general I like these ideas. In specific there are some I would tone down just a point here or there.

I really like the Avatar stat-line. I think the Pheonix Lords could drop their non aspect oriented stats to 6. But all in all It'd be fun to playtest.

other then whats already been mentioned

I would like it if, Wraithlords could take wraithguards, in the same way a Hive Tyrant can take tyrant guards (oh and a warlock so they don't all stand there)

I would also like it if vypers were jetbikes and could be joind to jebike squads (like SM attack bikes)

Wraithlords taking Wraithguard probably doesn't really do anything for the unit, as their roles and capabilities are too different.

I would like to see a modified version of the old Iyanden Craftworld rule return. The one that says for every wraithguard unit taken as a troop you can take an additional wraithlord as a troop also.

That would be too powerful but if modified to something like this.

For every guardian squad taken as a troop selection a 6-10 man wraithguard squad may also be taken as a toops choice. Additionally, for every Wraithguard taken as a troop selection the Army may take an additional Wraithlord even if it exceeds the FOC limits.

Next Idea-

All eldar vehicles are BS4.

Fast Eldar vehicles moving over 12"-18" may fire one weapon system at BS3 or two systems at BS2. At movement of over 6"-12" the vehicle may fire any two weapon system at BS4. 0"-6" The vehicle may fire all of its weapon systems.

focusedfire wrote:Next Idea-

All eldar vehicles are BS4.

Fast Eldar vehicles moving over 12"-18" may fire one weapon system at BS3 or two systems at BS2. At movement of over 6"-12" the vehicle may fire any two weapon system at BS4. 0"-6" The vehicle may fire all of its weapon systems.

...i like that but would like to add that Guardian Deffenders may also fire their Heavy Weapon Platform from with in the skimmer, the platform floats along side the Wave Serpent (this also explains why it doesn't take up any transport space). Whether it should be consider fired by the tank or the Guardian inside I'm not sure.

KISS - Eldar vehicles (and AGPs) are BS4.

Here's my take on the Eldar dex needs:

(1) No more powers based on a model, it should be a squad upgrade, ALL exarch and warlock squad powers should just be squad upgrades

(2) Pheonix Lords, if Taken, make their respective aspect score, and count as troops

(3) Remove Pheonix Lord snobbery, they should be able to join any Eldar unit, come on, you can have Vulkan Hestan and Shrike in the same army, but Maugan Rah won't even join a unit of Avengers? Absurd.

(4) Do something about Eldar skimmers: suggest: Spirit stone = Machine Spirit

(5) Guardians need to come in hosts of 1-3 in 1 troop slot (platoons)

(6) Warithguard need at least 18 inch range

(7) Assault style Eldar Aspect warriors need the grenades back, (how did Firedragons and Hawks steal all the Meltabombs and Haywire Grenades from the Scorpions and Banshees?)

(8) Fix Eldar artillery, Vibrocannon needs to be unlimited range, Dcannon at least 36 and spinner 60

(9) Wraithlord should get 2 weapons, not twin linked

Thank you for the input ,Augustus. As usual, it is concise and well thought out.

Items 1 and 3, I might want to fiddle with a bit but the rest are dead on.

This is a good starting place. Are there any other ideas that you've read or like? Seems to be a re-occuring sentiment amongst other threads that the Eldar Skimmers need a fair bit of adjusting.

The other complaint I'm hearing is a lot about the loss of relative speed in 5th ed.What would you suggest to correct this if anything?

Also,How do you feel about giving the Wraithlords the D-cannon?

PLEASE some sort of eldar assaulting vehicle with multiple hatches

move aspect squad max size up 12

move guardian squad minimum size to 8

vehicle between falcon and vyper in terms of size as a single fast attack option

Augustus ...(8) Fix Eldar artillery, Vibrocannon needs to be unlimited range, Dcannon at least 36 and spinner 60

...... i don't think thats the problem with them ... the problem is they can't move ... make them move and shoot and they become more usefull (maybe they scatter an extra d6/2d6 if you move) also it would be nice if you could take say upto 20 more guardians so they don't just get shoot off the board

All eldar can make a 6" move in the assault phase, even if not making an assault move. this includes tanks.

General sweeping change that upgrades the whole amy, speeding everything up, making everything sneakier, and can be done without changing points, imo.

would make the vyper and falcon worth their points, better protect guardians, etc.

jetbikes already get this. spiders would need a change, maybe D6+6" move, on a one, a model dies.

Alternatively:

I like the idea of template spiders - there isnt a template weapon aspect yet - seeing spiders make units move as in difficult terrain would be good, or one less dice if actually in terrain. maybe S4 AP- template, unit counts as in dangerous terrain next turn.

very schneaky.

guardian defenders can take up to 3 platforms.

support weapons on wraithlords and falcon chassis

differentiated combat wraithlord and support wraithlord/guard

18" range on wraithcannons

conceal adds +1 to cover save if already in cover

Maybe GW is listening about the Serpents and will redesign to allow for move/assault. I think it more likely that the Serps will get some move, deploy, move and the troops disembarking from said moving transport will get the option to run, shoot, or assault in the same turn that they disembarked.

These options will be able to apply to a vehicle whose total movement doesn't exceed 18".

I would make Shuriken weapons penetrate vehicles on 4+.

I would also remove Shuriken weapons. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, NINJAS OR SOMETHIN

Transport Move/Unload/Assault. Couple of ways to handle it:

1. Aspect Warrior Ability: (Like have Acrobatics allow Banshees to disembark and assault on the same turn.)

2. Add to a Vehicle Upgrade (Like CTM or perhaps Vectored Engines)

3. Inate ability to vehicles. (Then nix my former comments about lowering their costs.)

Make the citizen soldiers only cost 6 and upgrade their catapults to rapid fire 18" ... gives them the range they need to survive and actually shoot in 5th ed but leaves them definitely below Dire Avengers.

Lower the cost of the vehicles... (as every other later codex has...) If we take a rhino to be 35 pts and a truck to be 35 pts... what makes a wave serpent 55 points more? Basically same capacity range with more armor by 1 than a rhino and fast or by 2 and not open topped like a truck. I would propose they should be about 70 points without any mods instead of 90.

Now look at a falcon... 115 for capacity of 6 and one pulse laser the rest is paid for. The pulse laser is not good AT in 5th edition and basically half capacity of a serpent. Compare to razorback with TL Lascannon for 75 pts and same capacity... I would say the Falcons +1 armor and speed should be worth no more than 20 pts so clock in a falcon for 90 without options. As I suggested earlier, make a falcon a dedicated transport option rather than a heavy choice.

Wraithlord: Let wraithsword qualify for an extra attack.

DAaddict wrote:Make the citizen soldiers only cost 6 and upgrade their catapults to rapid fire 18" ... gives them the range they need to survive and actually shoot in 5th ed but leaves them definitely below Dire Avengers.

Rapid Fire 18" range is more useless than Assault 2 12" range, because if you're standing still to try to fire one shot at 18, you could have moved forward to fire two shots at 12".

Shoota boyz have the same gun as a Dire Avenger. This is a travesty of game balance. The DAs should have assault 2 24" shuriken catapults (which would give them effectively 2nd ed shuricats), and guardians should have assault 2 18" cats.

i would rather have 12'' assault 2 than 18'' rapid fire any day

Give Guardians same as dire avengers. Assault 2 range 18"

Make all shuriken weapons rending.

I accept that Rapid Fire is by far not good but I am questioning giving them Assault 18" ROF 2 exactly like DAs. ROF 1 would let them shoot but combined with some of the other options, we are ending up with Guardian defenders being almost the equal of Dire Avengers.

I can accept both having 18" range and then same stat lines as today so Guardians are not as accurate nor very survivable with AC 5.

I think the big question in the whole thing is where GW puts the costs... The 6 pt Ork boy is just impossible to match up to with any eldar. Not saying they can't be beat but in a troop oriented game, 30 orks are close to the equivalent of 10 Dire Avengers tricked out. This is a no win.