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What would be good to see.

Look for the swooping hawk weapons to surpass the new IG stormtrooper hellguns. The Eldar Tech is supposed to be lightyears ahead of the imperium.
The gun would have the same Strength and AP but greater range or become assault 2 range 18". I'd like to see an option for the Eldar better version of combat tactics.

Fire dragons will probably get the ability to split their fire or at some point during the game split the squad.

Eldar vehicles should get higher rates of fire and the banshees need a transport that they can assault out of.


Just a few quick ideas

New thought. Why don't the Eldar have an aspect warrior that focuses on mechanized combat? They have a craftworld but not a warrior shrine to a very important aspect of war.

Got to thinking about this when everyone said that bs 3 is good for guardians because they're citizens not warriors(I disagree with this thought very much as the Eldar are a warrior race and almost all follow the path of the warrior at some point or another).

If they aren't regular warriors then why are they always piloting the vehicles and thus making the falcon, War Walkers, and Vypers all bs 3. You pilot and gun a tank for a thousand years your gonna be better than some 40 year human vet.

So in the next codex I think the Eldar should either get a BS increase or the should get a Mech combat aspect.

I'd make the Avatar:

WS:10 BS:8 S:8 T:8 W:4 I:8 A:6 LD:10 Sv: 3+/4+

Weapons: Wailing Doom

Special Rules:
Fearless, Inspiring (allied Eldar get Fearless), Monstrous Creature, Daemon (gives a 4+ invul)

Molten Body: Is immune to all flamer and melta weapons. At the end of every turn, any model within 1" takes a Str 4 Ap- hit.

Wailing Doom: Has two ranged attacks, have to declare which one you're using:

1. R12", Str 8 Ap1, Melta 2. R:Template, Str 5 Ap4

It's supposed to be like, a fragment of a god of war, not a wussy. Of course this may actually be better suited for Apocalypse as it'd be around 400 points I'm assuming.

I would suggest nerfing eldar skimmers. At the moment they are too survivable. I played 2 games at the GT vs mech eldar on objective games, and on turn 5 and 6, when ever the game carried on till, the eldar player moved his two fire prisms 24 inches onto my objective with holofields, and was flying his 3 wave serpents around his. In a game where you can have only 2 or 3 objectives, having 3 holofield tanks is stupid. Also wave serpents need to lose the living metal rule they have, or go up in points. They are ridiculous if you compare them to say a Chimera or rhino in terms of survivability.

Hmm...

1. Swooping Hawks. Love the models, the concept, etc. Ever been disappointed with the actual result in terms of rules. They are a sort of bounce-shoot unit, but without the shooty to make it worth while. Better AP on the weapon? More shots? Better Grenade pack effect, multiple Large Templates based on the size of the unit?


2. Guardians. Something just strikes me as wrong about a long-lived race not having a slightly better showing in shooting or cc. The Defenders always feel like scrubs in shooting, and Storms are flailing in the wind. They always seem like they are very very weak without Aspect Warriors backing them up. Not a 'bad' thing per se, but perhaps a special rule being close to a given Aspect Unit that boosts their own stats? A one-time boost to BS/WS (once per game) when within 6" of an appropriate Aspect Unit, Reapers/DA's give BS, Scorpions/Banshees give WS, for those affected Guardians? So you can't necessarily give each unit individually the boost or any of that. Granted, Dire Avengers boosting a Storm Guardian Squad isn't necessarily ideal, but depending on the situation, could be quite good, and vice versa for Guardian Defenders with Banshees right next to them. Not sure what Warp Spiders, Shining Spears, or Swooping Hawks would give... SS's WS, Swooping Hawks BS, and Warp Spiders both or neither.

Eldar has long been a finesse army, and that shouldn't change. Most of the units aren't bad, and do what they do very very well, and are not particularly good at adapting to other roles on the field. Everything else in the army list is, for the most part, pretty decent. It's just getting X to where it needs to be, when it needs to be there, without fail.

@ Mad Larkin,

A 140 pt wave serpent vs the new 55 pt chimera is enough of a nerf.

Your complaining that a 140 pt Wave serp is superior to a 35 pt rhino(50pts kitted out). Edit out jibe in poor taste.

The 115 pt Prisms naked, 160 with holofield and Spirit stones w/front armour 12 vs vindicators under a hundred points.

Eldar skimmers were sick in 4th ed and their previous codex.
The new rule book nerfed them bigtime and upped other tanks to almost the same survivabilty for only 2/3 of the cost.

So just because some very talented players won a GT with the Eldar doesn't mean its time to "Nerf the Eldar".
It means that its time to re-examine your build and your tactics.
You lost to Mechdar. What ended up winning the GT? I heard it wasn't a mech based Eldar but haven't seen the winning lists as of yet. How close was the lists that you lost to compared with the GT winners lists?

Bring us that info and we have a foundation for a discussion.

@ Cmagee79,

How about the Swooping Hawks grenade packs made into buyable upgrades that can number up to 3-4 in a squad and follow barrage rules.

Also make their rifle equal to or better than the new hellgun. It's what it was before and the IG Storm troopers and Hawks have very similar missions and uses.

focusedfire wrote:swooping hawk weapons to surpass the new IG stormtrooper hellguns. The gun would have the same Strength and AP but greater range or become assault 2 range

Fire dragons will probably get the ability to split their fire or at some point during the game split the squad.

Eldar vehicles should get higher rates of fire

banshees need a transport that they can assault out of.

Why don't the Eldar have an aspect warrior that focuses on mechanized combat?

If they aren't regular warriors then why are they always piloting the vehicles and thus making the falcon, War Walkers, and Vypers all bs 3.

The Hawk Lasblaster is already R24" S3 (AP5) A2. The problem is that their S3 simply isn't useful, especially with 4+ cover saves handed out like candy. I'd suggest R24" S4 AP- AP2 as the new Lasblaster.

Fire Dragons don't need to split fire or split unit. What they need is to be better differentiated against Dire Avengers by having more than just a better gun. I suggest Sv3+ and a S5 AP1 gun that always rolls 2d6 against armor, rather than carrying Meltas which are a bit too much.

Eldar vehicles should have a Spirit Stone that fires an additional weapon at BS3, similar to Lumbering Behemoth and Machine Spirit.

Actually, this should be inherent to the "lighter" Aspects - Dire Avengers and Banshees should both be able to Assault out of Transports.

Ordinary Guardians can be BS3, as they're just guys who jumped into the armor. The problem with Guardians is Sv5+, when Eldar should be giving them better armor with Sv4+ (dying race and all).

Eldar don't need a mechanized Aspect, as this would then tie them to a single vehicle that they mater. That said, War Walkers would be a decent unit to have an Aspect pilot - WS4 BS4 I4 War Walkers would be kind of cool, especially if they could be fitted with DNCCWs in lieu of guns...

Eldar vehicles (and AGPs) should simply have Targeters that make them base BS4.
____

Mad Larkin Uk wrote:I would suggest nerfing eldar skimmers. At the moment they are too survivable.

They are ridiculous if you compare them to say a Chimera or rhino in terms of survivability.

Eldar skimmers are fine - they're the most expensive Transports in the game!

A Chimera is going to be 55 pts. A Rhino is now 35 pts. A Wave Serpent still costs well over 100 pts. At 2x or 3x the cost, Eldar skimmers are highly overcosted.
____

cmagee79 wrote:1. Swooping Hawks. Better AP on the weapon? More shots? Better Grenade pack effect, multiple Large Templates based on the size of the unit?

2. Guardians. perhaps a special rule being close to a given Aspect Unit that boosts their own stats? A

Eldar has long been a finesse army, and that shouldn't change.

1. Hawks don't need a better pack effect - as it is, it's too good to yo-yo Hawks. AP and shots are fine, which is why I like S4 AP-.

2. Boosting seems wierd, and is unprecedented. I think Guardians should go down in points, and be a better mobile infantry-based fire support unit.

Actually, it should change back to being even *more* of a finesse army. The Eldar Troops are messed up, as there isn't enough option for Aspect Troops (like CSM, etc.)

So, what your essentially asking for is the return of the Craftworld codex.

If so, I agree. It'd be really nice to have Strking Scorps or banshees as scoring units.

Now as to what I think we'll see.
I think that we will see a new improved version of the Jetbikes.
Possibly, Either an open-topped transport or the ability to beam/teleport into close combat at the cost of shooting that turn.
The Pheonix Lords Will definitely get a rework.
Eldar vehicles will get upgrades with the same names but different abilities:
Crystal Targeting Mtrix- Now allows the vehicle to split its fire, or fire all offensive if moved over 6" and up to 12", and/or reduces cover by 1.
Spirit Stones- will be the same
Vectored and star engines are still the same but if you take both, then you can drop troops after moving 12" and move another 12 after. That turns shooting was sacrificed.

These are just a few ideas

More or less. As a skittles Biel-Tan player, the current Codex doesn't do anything for me.

IMO...
- sexy new Jetbike models with utterly crap rules - the Possessed / Stormies of the Eldar.

- Teleport unlikely, except Ulthwe gate; and OT Transport is DE, not CWE.

- CTM should be the name for extra shot per turn.

focusedfire wrote:@ Cmagee79,

How about the Swooping Hawks grenade packs made into buyable upgrades that can number up to 3-4 in a squad and follow barrage rules.

Also make their rifle equal to or better than the new hellgun. It's what it was before and the IG Storm troopers and Hawks have very similar missions and uses.

I'm not so sure about buyable Grenade packs. I was thinking more of a 'For every Five models in your unit, drop one large template on the target unit' kind of thing.

Now insofar as improving the Lasblaster... I'm torn. I don't want it to be some sort of over-charged beast of a gun, but at the same time, it certainly could do with a bit of tweaking. It's not a 'bad' unit by any measure, but compared to the other options, I just look at it and think 'Hmmmmmmmmnope' and shift my attention. Warp Spiders are all of a single point difference per model, and are a helluva lot more appealing even with the much shorter range. Shining Spears are pretty beastly now, for half again as many points. Hell, even a full Vyper Squadron has more appeal than the Swooping Hawks. The only somewhat interesting ability they have of being able to Skyleap away only to Deep Strike again a moment later, but all that means to me is having a unit potentially being able to drop back in using Reserves rules (I'd prefer automatically returning on next movement phase, but whatevs) and 'possibly' contesting an objective or denying the enemy one (1) KP.

They're not a killy mcshooty unit, have some interesting tidbits, but for the cost and the range of alternatives, I'm simply not sold.

3 Words: Crystal Targeting Matrix

Here is a sick idea. Jetbike banshees or harlequins.

What I'm seeing is that each army coming out is becoming even more clearly an arch-type of a certain style of warfare.

With the Eldar, their speed is their greatest asset. I see the army getting faster and it gives the excuse to give them better armour saves without becoming too Tau-like.

What would the stats and cost of a Jetbike Avatar or Jetbike Wraithlord be?

Not seriously suggesting them as new options. Just have the extra models to attempt a Vyper/jetbike mount conversion of each and wondered what their rules would be like.

The problem with the eldar in my mind are just a few:

1. Guardians overpriced or under ranged. R12" catapults are a deathwish and 8 point ablative casualties for 1 heavy weapon system is overpriced.
2. All the aspect warrior CC specialists just don't hold any water to other army's elite CC options. Alot of this is the eldar bane of T3 but I would argue for either increased WS or +1 Attack to the base value. Scorpions are just survivable but I can do equivalent effects with a cheaper Dire Avenger unit. Banshees suck except for the 1 in 12 assaults where war shout comes into play. Harlequins not really that impressive but they do provide some survivablity the other two do not.

3. Vypers - please make them 2 w attack bikes instead of open-topped landspeeders that cost more for a lower BS unit.
4. Discount Falcons... under 5th ed I MUST purchase a secondary weapon if I use the mobility I am paying for I can't ever fire it.
5. With the reductions in skimmer survivability and the decrease in cost of rhinos and chimeras, don't tell me 6" of movement and some funky 12+ AV makes a wave serpent worth almost 3 rhinos or 2 chimeras.

I was just reading the Eldar weak troops/scoring units and found a post by durandal.

The post does an amazing job of defining the major issues facing the Eldar. Some of it is stuff already covered and some were enlightening.

The already covered part was about how each new codex is slowly outdating the Eldar through a steady line of lowered prices for transports and troops in these latest codices.

The part I found enlightening was where he pointed out that the new mission orientation towards objectives works against the Eldar in a fundamental way.

He observed that the eldar, as much as any other army and maybe more so, counts upon the support from other units. But now with the objectives so far apart or being so many it forces the limited Eldar force to split up to the point where the troops with their 12" guns have trouble supporting one another.

That the Elites have to cover so much ground in these missions that transports are almost madatory. The need to use the very expensive transports cuts down on the overall army size/strength and effectively increaqses the work load of the remaining units.

This poses the question of how do the Eldar regain their speed advantage in the run/objective 5thed world?

Give them a better version of fleet that allows them to shoot after running.

Make their skimmer tanks faster, and able to disembark troops after moving up to 24" (I'd say 18, but the new guard codex is giving precedent for very OTT stuff...) let them fire all of their weapons as stationary no matter how far they move, let them assault out of transports as long as they don't move say... over 12".

Basically, give them some of the mobility advantages that other races have and eldar don't. For being billed as the "most mobile" army they sure are lacking a lot that other races are being given.

For those who say "OMG that's overpowered!" look at the design trends for all of the recent codices (Orks+). Every new codex has units that are extremely over-the-top... so why shouldn't Eldar have the same?

@Willydstyle

What about Eldar-Fleet allowing either a run and shoot, or run and assault? One or the other?

Or perhaps Move-Shoot-Run akin to Tau jet-packs but on a D6" rather than guaranteed 6"?

The falcon/wave serpent just don't have the look/feel of the valkyrie, allowing them to disembark along the path of movement. I'd be happy with an 'assault' transport akin to the old Harlequin codex Vypers (only 6, but better than nothing). Flimsy, fast, but effective.

I'd hardly call the Eldar anything less than mobile. However that mobility comes at a cost and is decidedly less adaptive and holds less utility than, say, Space Marines.

cmagee79 I like the idea of choosing shooting or assaulting if you use the "eldar pansy dance" as I will now refer to this proposed rule.

farseer powers that happen at the begining of the turn such as fortune guide and doom are done instead of movement or make the powers usable in the shooting phase.

Done instead of movement? That would be horrible... but in the shooting phase would be a huge buff... so which one do you want, farseers to be nerfed or buffed?

Power should stay in Shooting (beginning of shooting mind you).

Insofar as Eldar Pansy Dance, leave it up to any eldar unit with a 4+ armor save or worse, with 3+ armor save relegated to regular old Fleet and that's mainly to give Scorpions a lil extra oomph, and banshees could give a damn. Jetbikes would not gain this happy dance.

And, of course, I love me some hypothetical Vyper-Assault-Dealie transport.

I, instead of improving their physical speed, think its time to see a new unique Eldar only item/rule.

I have mixed feelings about army wide special rules but it does seem to be the trend and the eldar will are going to need something like that in the near future.


The new unique item I'm thinking of are Webway gates that can materialize anywhere on the board but no closer than 18" to an objective(unless maybe they are the objective?). There can always be at least two gates per eldar army but can be equal to the number of objectives.

I know this is DOW-ish but I feel that it does make sense. I would limit it by making them pay for these gates and limiting the number of squads to 2-3 per turn able to teleport. It would be like disembarking and embarking from transports in that if the base of the gate is surrounded then no units may exit from that particular gate.

Still working on what would be balanced as to unit limitations. Infantry only? Jetbikes allowed or not? Does unit have to be within certain distance toteleport and if so then what distance?


What do you think?

I think all the Eldar skimmers should deep strike. All the imperial skimmers do after all. I really wonder how the impies went from having very limited numbers of skimmers to having better skimmers than the eldar?

I wouldn't say better. At most they are equivalent. The new IG skimmers are larger and don't benefit from some of the wargear but do have some useful abilities.

You can call it deepstriking or as I prefer teleporting, but being able to do so out of the back of a fast moving moving skimmer is a nice trick. I think tweek the rule to where a unit depolyed in such manner may either shoot, run, or assault. But only one of these.

I'd rather leave deepstriking vehicles to the imperium and give the Eldar skimmers the ability to come on from any board edge to represent Web gate technology.

Guardian option 1: AC 4+ Catapult 18" Rapid Fire 6 pt cost.

All eldar can fleet. (If Shrike led terminators can so should all eldar.)

+1 WS -1 BS to Scorpions and Banshees

-1 WS +1 BS to Reapers and Hawks

Same for Avengers and Spiders.

All Eldar vehicles BS 4.

Eldar defensive weapons back to S6
Vypers moved to 2W T4 jetbike rules.
Falcons moved from Heavy to optional dedicated transport.

Serpents and Falcons discounted at least 20 pts.

Lower costs of Holofield. (It is inferior to Tau 5pt mod yet costs 35 pts???)

Built in night vision for all vehicles. (Sick of eldar being the only blind vehicles in a night fight.)

@DAddict: The above sounds generally reasonable, so no chance in hell that GW does any of it.

BTW, I'd say this:

All Eldar can Fleet, but "light" units (e.g. Guardians, Harlies, Banshees, Hawks) take the best of 2d6 for the Fleet distance.

Also, Vypers should be AV10 count as "closed".

Otherwise, all good.

@ DAddict-I like the direction you are going but would tweek some things just a little, IMHO.

1)Absolutely agree on all shuricats being range 18" and assault 2. Disagree on the 4+sv. It would make them Tau but with fleet and decent initiative for 25% less the price. It's too good.
I'd rather that the warlock conceal ability gets changed to just +2 to cover up to max 2+ coversave. I'd also like the warlocks to gain the ability to buy spirit stones so that they could possibly use two powers a turn.

2)I'm still in the camp that even reserve units are gonna have BS4 WS4 after living for a thousand years. Applying that new base stat to your proposed new Aspect stats would make the HTH units +1WS and the shooting +1 BS and +1 Initiative. Make the exarchs have increased physical stats +1S & +1T as well as +2 to their BS or WS modifier.

3)Eldar vehicle BS4, Agreed

4)With shuricats range 18" the defensive weapon boost is a little too powerful. Instead, Falcon rule that the turret counts as one weapon firing.

Absolutely agree about the Vypers.

Again absolutely agree about the Falcon.

5) 20pts is a bit much of a price drop. 10 points would be more in line with what is being seen in the new codices.

6)Yes, the holo fields need a small points drop but don't judge against the Tau. It's a hold over piece from 4th that just happen to quadruple in value for fifth. Every reasonable Tau player I know is expecting the Dis Pod to jump to at least 15-20 points, "If" we even get to keep it without it being nerfed in the next codex.

I see the holofields coming in at around 20pts. Just my opinion.

7)I agree about the night fighting. I've got this feeling that the eldar are going to get a 35-40-ish point upgrade/option called by an old name but with new rules.

It's the Crystal Targeting Matrix. I see it coming back with rules that grant night vision and removes cover with some kind of balancing modifier. Maybe it even lets the eldar move up to 18" and fire one main weapon.

On the subject of Eldar vehicle upgrades, I could see an across the board 5pt drop do to how 5th ed nerfed the abilities.


To your proposed changes I'd like to add that the Wraithguard need to drop by about 5pts per model.

What do you think?



Edit for spacing

I think it has been mentioned on another thread but, i would love to see taking a phoenix lord let you take their aspect as troops. Dragon, Banshee army anyone?

J.Black wrote:I think it has been mentioned on another thread but, i would love to see taking a phoenix lord let you take their aspect as troops. Dragon, Banshee army anyone?

I would rather that they could be bought instead of an exarch for 1 squad. I personally would find it annoying to play an army of 30 Fire Dragons or 30 Scorp's.