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Cormarragh? Okay, thanks.

What happened to Rogal Dorn?He died at the end of the first black crusade right?

They found the remains of Dorn's hand. They don't know what happened to the rest of his body.

About Sigmar (since I keep bringing it up). GW has made in clear in the current fluff that Sigmar is not a primarch and that the Warhammer World is not in the 40k universe. In the Rogue Trader-era (and maybe even into second edition), it was heavily implied that Sigmar was a missing Primarch. But, like a lot of things, GW retconned that.

I've suspected one of the Legions fell into sorcery and was banished as a result or destroyed themselves by letting something lose. And that is why the Emperor forebade the use of Sorcery.

So that makes two legions who used magic.

dietrich wrote:I've suspected one of the Legions fell into sorcery and was banished as a result or destroyed themselves by letting something lose. And that is why the Emperor forebade the use of Sorcery.

What is the basis of your suspicion? We already have that story. To wit:

deadratman wrote:So that makes two legions who used magic.

I remember there being some fluff ages ago that suggested The Legion of The Damned were one of the lost legions, and they appeared to aid the Imperium in order to atone for some past sin.

Also, Nagash is the first and greatest of the Liches in WFB, he is essentially the source of the Undead armies in that lore. And GW have already said that Sigmar ISN'T a Primarch, the two universes, whilst similiar, are entirely seperate

Dark Lord Seanron wrote:I remember there being some fluff ages ago that suggested The Legion of The Damned were one of the lost legions, and they appeared to aid the Imperium in order to atone for some past sin.

LotD were Fire Hawks (all fluff forum speculation aside).

My guess is that they purposely got lost to generate an excuse for getting rid of that UGLY paint scheme and EVEN UGLIER symbol.

dietrich wrote:They found the remains of Dorn's hand. They don't know what happened to the rest of his body.

Actually they do

Rogal Dorn died fighting on board a Chaos ship, after attacking the first Black Crusade fleet with a vastly outnumbered force. Seeing the importance of attacking the enemy fleet while they were still preparing he relied on hit-and-run attacks until his reinforcements could arrive. Dorn died on board the Despoiler Class Battleship Sword of Sacrilege after leading a desperate attack on its bridge. His remains were recovered and his engraved skeletal hand is kept in stasis by his chapter.2

Dorn's skeleton without his hands is kept within a chapel, and embedded in clear amber contoured to the body form of the Primarch himself. Dorn's skeletal fists are kept within two shrines, the bones intricately engraved with the heraldry of all the Chapter's previous Masters. Only the Chapter Master has the right to engrave his name upon the bones. Each bone corresponds to former commanders. Left hand, the first metacarpal: Lords Bronwin Abermort, Maximus Thane, Kalman Flodensbog, the first phalanx of the thumb, Ambrosian Spactor, etc.5

Hasn't there already been like, 4000 of these threads?

Yes, but there are new users who have never seen these threads before and the horror goes on...

Manchu wrote:

dietrich wrote:I've suspected one of the Legions fell into sorcery and was banished as a result or destroyed themselves by letting something lose. And that is why the Emperor forebade the use of Sorcery.

What is the basis of your suspicion? We already have that story. To wit:

deadratman wrote:So that makes two legions who used magic.

I'm guessing. By outlawing the use of sorcery, it suggests that the Emperor knew it could go very wrong. But, the Imperium depends on psykers (notably navigators), so it can't be that all psykers are bad. Plus, there was the Council of Nikea which addressed the use of sorcery and psykers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And oops on Dorn. I remembered the skeletal hands, and I thought that was all they found of him.

Just worked this out for myself but thought others might find it useful:

I Dark Angels - Lion El'Jonson - Missing after fighting Luther, “Asleep” in The Rock.

II unknown - all records lost following the Horus Heresy.

III Emperor's Children - Fulgrim – Trapped in his own mind, now a daemon prince.

IV Iron Warriors - Perturabo – Daemon Prince.

V White Scars - Jaghatai Khan – Lost in the warp, possibly captive of Dark Eldar.

VI Space Wolves - Leman Russ – Sodded off with the 13th Great Company, missing.

VII Imperial Fists - Rogal Dorn – Dead, encased in amber with no hands.

VIII Night Lords - Konrad Curze – Willingly assassinated by Callidus.

IX Blood Angels - Sanguinius – Dead and buried on Baal, killed by Horus.

X Iron Hands - Ferrus Manus – Killed by Fulgrim, rumoured to be alive on Mars.

XI unknown - all records lost following the Horus Heresy

XII World Eaters - Angron – Daemon Prince

XIII Ultramarines - Roboute Guilliman – Poisoned by Fulgrim and mortally wounded, now in stasis and reputedly healing.

XIV Death Guard - Mortarion – Daemon Prince

XV Thousand Sons - Magnus the Red – Daemon Prince

XVI Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus – Horus – Dead, body destroyed but only after at least one clone made, unknown if any clones survived.

XVII Word Bearers - Lorgar – Daemon (Prince?)

XVIII Salamanders - Vulkan – Probably alive but missing.

XIX Raven Guard - Corax – Went mad and headed towards the eye of terror.

XX Alpha Legion - Alpharius and Omegon – Alpharius dead but Omegon alive – Traitors against the empire but work towards the fall of Chaos (followers of Malal?)

Chaos have seven Deamon Primarchs, could overthrow the Imperium pretty smoothly if you ask me, but only Angron has been out of the warp in 10,000 years, lazy buggers, the Imperium have 6 primarchs, Ultra smurfs primarch is slowly dieing in a static field while they try to find a cure.

Russ's armour and weapons were found and is possibly a demon dog running around the eye of terror or a pet for a Daemon Primarch, maybe Magnus they hated each other.

The others are either lost in the eye of terror, dead or gone missing.

Now wasnt Vulkan lost, in the battle on Instavann?
Maybe the Cabal have got him, and he's come back one day.

As we know, Vulkan is still alive. According to the SM dex, "Vulkan will return when the forge father finds all his artifacts" iirc.

Vulkan commented on the Codex Astartes so he must have survived Istvaan...

In regards to Ferrus, I doubt he's still alive seeing as FULGRIM BEHEADED HIM ON ISTVAAN AND SHOWED HIS HEAD TO HORUS IN A LITTLE BOX.

It's funny actually, most answers are out there in the novels and the Horus Heresy collected visions books.

Yes but the answers are arranged in such a way that when read them you don't realise that you found the answers and that they only raise more questions.

deadratman wrote:Yes but the answers are arranged in such a way that when read them you don't realise that you found the answers and that they only raise more questions.

Lol. Too true.

Hmm, I don't really see the novels as such mind-boggling affairs.

well lets see the primarchs some are still out there waiting to be called. And the Daemon Princes can't get near terra because their is such a massive warfleet surronding it. it would take 300 years to defeat -.-.
and every chapter would come running to terra with 4000 battle barges with them!
so i think the Daemon Princes would get OWNED!
but still the 2 missing primarchs are unknown but it might be the blood ravens or another chapter we don't know gw made that to make people likes agrue about this stuff.
I talked to the Regional Manger of the US and he talked about that so he said that Blood Ravens MAY be a legion but they want players to make their own legion up.

It takes a massive amount of chaos energy to summon a Primarch Daemon Prince from the Warp. Magnus has tried to get out of the Warp a few times, but he got screwed over by Space Pups every time.

Its not that their lazy, it just takes a whole lot of work and a couple of them probably have plans to get out.

thats not what i mean't :*(

Now if all the chaos primarchs could get out of the warp and combined there legions, titans and get the gods behind them, then they would go straight to terra, doesnt matter how many battlebarges, and space marines the imperium has, the primarchs are tactical genius and noone in the Imperium has the tactical mindpower like them.

Well all the space marine would come running to terra, and fight the Chaos marines, the only difference is that chaos marines have 10,000 years exprience fighting, well most of them do, and could unleash demons, and would be alot more powerful then last time during the assault on terra, back then they didnt have demons, as well as the amazing iron warriors to help lay down a seige, the chaos marines could conquer terra and the surrounding worlds in a matter of years.

Well lets say out of a traitor legion about 2,000 stayed loyal, now there are 8 legions that went traitor so roughly around 64,000 chaos marines now those killed and stuff over the 10,000 years would take off roughly 30,000 marines. So original traitors around 34,000,
a librarian said about 100 full chapters have turned to chaos so that boasts there numbers by about 70,000.
Theres a 100,000 space marines out there, and alot of them wouldnt be able to rush to terra.

This is all guesswork, but you get the point, if somehow all the primarchs got out the warp then they could destroy the Imperium.

How would they do that, i dont know sacrifice the whole cadian system to the chaos gods, maybe thats whats Abbaddon tryna acheive.

The primarchs are tactical geniuses. The daemon princes are no longer primarchs so whether they still have that tactical genius is not certain. The number of loyal marines is at least 700,000, not 100,000. The loyalists vastly outnumber the traitors unless the traitor legions have expanded far beyond their original numbers.

There are primarchs, its not like they are swapping there minds for the minds of a standard deamon prince, they are still what they were, but chaos and with 10,000 years exprience behind them.

I dont know where you get your numbers from there are a 100 chapters of 1,000 space marines.

Xav wrote:There are primarchs, its not like they are swapping there minds for the minds of a standard deamon prince, they are still what they were, but chaos and with 10,000 years exprience behind them.

That's right. They were "promoted" to demon prince status. They're still the same "person" (i.e., have the same memories, mental capabilities, etc). I also find those numbers somewhat troubling--to bad Gwar!'s not around.

Which ones? the very rough chaos marines numbers or the 700,000 space marines?

I was a bit mean to the chaos marines i mean about 40,000 marines out of 64,000 marines must have survived, i think, and add on atleast 50 full chapters added there numbers are going to be equal if not similar to Space marines, but without Guard support.

Xav wrote:Which ones? the very rough chaos marines numbers or the 700,000 space marines?

I was a bit mean to the chaos marines i mean about 40,000 marines out of 64,000 marines must have survived, i think, and add on atleast 50 full chapters added there numbers are going to be equal if not similar to Space marines, but without Guard support.

I meant all of the numbers posted in this thread so far. For a brief glimpse at how hard the number game is in Warhammer please see Gwar!'s masterpiece on the modern Space Wolves here.

Well i just read that and i think we can re-do how many marines are there.

Looks like there's 1200 per chapter at any given time, so thats about roughly 120,000 space marines in our world today, not including ones lost in warp storms or trapped in the warp.

Lets stick to 10,000 marines per legion, and say about 1,000 loyalist marines in every traitor.

Thats 72,000 chaos marines, if we add the traitor chapters, which is atleast 50 chapters, probaly having about 200 who stay loyal we got about 122,000 chaos marines.

Chaos space marines recruit into there ranks as well, just not as frequently as space marines, i think.

So i think that puts the numbers today at about 90,000 to 97,000 chaos marines, would anyone agree with me?

I always wanted to establish a number for the chaos marines out there.

isnt there supposedly ~ 1000 chapters around