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I said Eatherals were monarch like. And Stalin was a two faced man who used brutality when he couldn't sweet talk workers(unlikley).By the middle of the war Stalin had almost all of russia believing in communism. Watch Enemy at the Gates. They always talk about how Communism will triumph in the end.

You would welcome a race that calls us Gue'la... Or lowest of beings? That shows how they see Humans... In Imperial Rule one thing is sure, the placement of Humanity as the ruler of the stars... that is an Idea to fight for.

Yes but the human worlds they find usually are very primitive. And if they dont agree they get slaughtered. That would be another blow to the imperium another million souls at least that are dead.

indeed penut...

One thing that gets me is how they say Join the Greater Good, and if you don't they attack... sounds like the Korean war and Vietnam to me... again a link to the generalized Communism

Yes but I just found the reason why humans are called Guela. Lowest of the beings, tech wise. Yes but if its a huge empire comprised of more than 5 planets you want to all have the same religion to unify your people. Of course there will be veriations( Christianity can be split into Christianity[the closest to the orignal]Catholim and protestant) but if you come across a race that will not embrace them, they are someone you must kill off quickly or you could find yourself in a religous civil war.

There is one thing to remember: Tau fear civil war.
They are happy with their etherals suppressing them into some form of peace.

Now humans are good at one thing: finding a reason to start a war. If there is no xenos, just go against your neighbour.
Exactly what the Tau wont desire in their "empire".
Humans will not be affected from their etherals. So Tau leave them a few seconds alone and blam, next civil unrest.

So you ask why humans do follow their emperor and not start a civil war....oh wait....Horus heresy....apostasy... attempts to declare
to leave the imperium...maybe its inbuilt?

Makes us sound like orks

yes but we are disscussing humans called guela who have no account of the Emperor.And these are humans who have no ranged weaponry other than bows and spears

They call humanity Gua'la... down right Insulting... Humanity has better tech then the Orks, and most of the Tau's own allies. Space Marines a genetically suppiror to the Tau, and I even the basic Human is more advanced then the Tau... The Dark Age of Tech anyone? Humanity is capaible of far more them the Tau give them credit for... and the word Gue'la is more then enough to go to war for...

Not Space marines(face palm) regular humans on stone age era planets in the tau empire who are cut off from the Imperium.(sigh)

They still call all humans this, even though they clearly are not.

1) everything other races do, humans do better.

2) even bare handed humans would kick Tau asses.

3) arent we discussing "to rule" ? If its just " to slay", then i have to put in the exterminatus, something not available to Tau.

4) or did we leave the "earth" and go for a feudal backwater planet because the minor bluegrey threat cant threathen anything
that has evolved over the use of stoneaxes?

Makes no sense at all. Space marines may not have plasma rifle and railguns but humans have one thing tau dont. Apocalyptic Exterminatus and Thermonuclear,Hydrogen, and Biological warheads

1 yes
2 yes
3 idk
4 idk

3=yes

Space Marines my not have Plasma Rifles, but they have Plama Pistols, Plasma Guns, Plasma Cannons, and the Rest of the Imperium have other such Plasma Weapons including Plasma Blast Cannons...

Oh yeah...

Sanchez01 wrote:indeed penut...

One thing that gets me is how they say Join the Greater Good, and if you don't they attack... sounds like the Korean war and Vietnam to me... again a link to the generalized Communism

You won't let up on this, will you?

Hitler did similar things with the European nations. By your logic, the Tau now have a link to Nazism.
The American government did that same thing to Native Americans with their lands, by your logic, the Tau now have a link to a Representative Democracy.
Alexander the Great did the same thing with tribes and cities he encountered, by your logic, the Tau now have a link to Alexander the Great.

Generalized communism?? I guess anyone in history who has given the option, "Join us or die/be oppressed" is a Communist?

penut the butter wrote:Yes but the human worlds they find usually are very primitive. And if they dont agree they get slaughtered. That would be another blow to the imperium another million souls at least that are dead.

Quote this. Quote this. Quote this.

Sanchez01 wrote:You would welcome a race that calls us Gue'la... Or lowest of beings? That shows how they see Humans... In Imperial Rule one thing is sure, the placement of Humanity as the ruler of the stars... that is an Idea to fight for.

Really, do you know the translation of Gue'vesa? It seems you don't.

Gue'vesa, aka, human helpers is the name for the human race in the Tau language. Gue'la, and Gue'ui are both military ranks...referring to Soldiers and Sergeants, respectively.

penut the butter wrote:I said Eatherals were monarch like. And Stalin was a two faced man who used brutality when he couldn't sweet talk workers(unlikley).By the middle of the war Stalin had almost all of russia believing in communism. Watch Enemy at the Gates. They always talk about how Communism will triumph in the end.

Ethereals have more in common with a board of directors for a company. Although Aun'Va is seen by many to be the "head" of the Ethereals, in the novels, the high Ethereals function much more like a committee.

Che-Vito wrote:

You won't let up on this, will you?

Hitler did similar things with the European nations. By your logic, the Tau now have a link to Nazism.
The American government did that same thing to Native Americans with their lands, by your logic, the Tau now have a link to a Representative Democracy.
Alexander the Great did the same thing with tribes and cities he encountered, by your logic, the Tau now have a link to Alexander the Great.

Generalized communism?? I guess anyone in history who has given the option, "Join us or die/be oppressed" is a Communist?

In Most Totalitarian governments the people are blind the the leader's Ambitions, they do what they are told. Soviet Russia was a totalitarian government whitch we Americans called Communist... This communism we saw was bad, it was scary, and it was anti-american. Was it true Communism? No, but what did we call it? Communism.

Che-Vito wrote:


Really, do you know the translation of Gue'vesa? It seems you don't.

Gue'vesa, aka, human helpers is the name for the human race in the Tau language. Gue'la, and Gue'ui are both military ranks...referring to Soldiers and Sergeants, respectively.

Gue'la - Human
Gue'vesa - Human Helper
Gue'vesa'la - Human Axillary Trooper
Gue'vesa'ui - Human Axillary Squad Leader

Che-Vito wrote:


Ethereals have more in common with a board of directors for a company. Although Aun'Va is seen by many to be the "head" of the Ethereals, in the novels, the high Ethereals function much more like a committee.

They are more like a group of Queen Bees. Using their genetic oppression of the less sub-species of Tau (earth/air/fire/water) to do what they wish.

Che-Vito wrote:Gue'vesa, aka, human helpers is the name for the human race in the Tau language. Gue'la, and Gue'ui are both military ranks...referring to Soldiers and Sergeants, respectively.

I think my Tau codex disagrees with your translation.

Gue vesa = auxilary human "cannonfodder"
Gue la = humans , translating to something as honorable as the eldars "mon keigh"

Che-Vito wrote:
Ethereals have more in common with a board of directors for a company. Although Aun'Va is seen by many to be the "head" of the Ethereals, in the novels, the high Ethereals function much more like a committee.

Fine, committee. Lead by a secretary......where is the red flag hidden?

1hadhq wrote:


Gue vesa = auxilary human "cannonfodder"

I do remember reading somewhere it was human helper... but again it is an alien language and there are mistranslated words

Sanchez01 wrote:

In Most Totalitarian governments the people are blind the the leader's Ambitions, they do what they are told. Soviet Russia was a totalitarian government whitch we Americans called Communist... This communism we saw was bad, it was scary, and it was anti-american. Was it true Communism? No, but what did we call it? Communism.

Wonderful! Now break that cycle of incorrectness!

Sanchez01 wrote:
Gue'la - Human
Gue'vesa - Human Helper
Gue'vesa'la - Human Axillary Trooper
Gue'vesa'ui - Human Axillary Squad Leader

Wonderful. Now that we have that out of the way, explain how this is insulting. Calling a human, a human...insulting?
When the Tau reference human's, they often shorthand it as "Gue'la" "Gue'ui"...when refering to the race, it is either "Gue'la or Gue'vesa", more commonly the latter.

Sanchez01 wrote:They are more like a group of Queen Bees. Using their genetic oppression of the less sub-species of Tau (earth/air/fire/water) to do what they wish.

Possibly. Again, let's see some quotations here. There have been subtle hints at the kind of control the Ethereals wield over the other Castes, but show me something definitive. While you're at it, please share where you have read that the other Castes are oppressed...I have not reading anything along those lines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:

I think my Tau codex disagrees with your translation.

Gue vesa = auxilary human "cannonfodder"
Gue la = humans , translating to something as honorable as the eldars "mon keigh"

Do you have a foreign language codex (not sarcastic with this question)? I have both 3rd and 4th edition codexes, and neither of them contain rules for the Human Aux. There are Human Aux rules available through the GW website...

Che-Vito wrote:

Wonderful! Now break that cycle of incorrectness!

That is what I have been saying the whole time. People are referring to the generalized form of Communism

Che-Vito wrote:

Wonderful. Now that we have that out of the way, explain how this is insulting. Calling a human, a human...insulting?
When the Tau reference human's, they often shorthand it as "Gue'la" "Gue'ui"...when refering to the race, it is either "Gue'la or Gue'vesa", more commonly the latter.

Gue'la is roughly translated as lowest being. Calling a human lesser to an Infant race that has not, and quite possibly could not survive, the hardships man has. And to call humans lesser is just an insult. Now if they had a name for humans... like the orks call them 'Umies. That would be different. The Humans call the Tau what they call them selves.. and the Tau cannot call humans Humans?

Che-Vito wrote:

Possibly. Again, let's see some quotations here. There have been subtle hints at the kind of control the Ethereals wield over the other Castes, but show me something definitive. While you're at it, please share where you have read that the other Castes are oppressed...I have not reading anything along those lines.

Shas'O O'Shovah... after leaving the Eatherial's presences he was able to do as he wish and defy the Eatherials... something he could not do in their presence

Sanchez01 wrote:
One thing that gets me is how they say Join the Greater Good, and if you don't they attack... sounds like the Korean war and Vietnam to me... again a link to the generalized Communism

Sanchez01 wrote:That is what I have been saying the whole time. People are referring to the generalized form of Communism

Yes, and you are included in that group of "people".

Sanchez01 wrote:
Gue'la is roughly translated as lowest being. Calling a human lesser to an Infant race that has not, and quite possibly could not survive, the hardships man has. And to call humans lesser is just an insult. Now if they had a name for humans... like the orks call them 'Umies. That would be different. The Humans call the Tau what they call them selves.. and the Tau cannot call humans Humans?

You have yet to quote me this. I have read nothing of the sort, as of yet, the only definition we have, of terms that the Tau use to refer to humans, is "Gue'vesa", aka, Human Helpers.

If Gue'la is so insulting, then give us a link to back up your opinion. As of yet, it has no backing.

Sanchez01 wrote:Shas'O O'Shovah... after leaving the Eatherial's presences he was able to do as he wish and defy the Eatherials... something he could not do in their presence

The Codex simply states that he lost direction, moderation, etc. This is not definitive, although cumulatively it may have something to it. The codex can be quite clearly read (aka, without twisting word definitions) to say that he lost his ability to reel in his temper after his Ethereal died. The Fire Caste is notoriously hot-headed.

According to my copy of the Tau empire codex, 'la' is one of the suffixes used by the Tau to denote an individuals rank within their caste. For instance, common fire warrior troopers are 'Shas'la' while their team leaders may be 'Shas'ui' and a force commander a 'Shas'el'. Presumably 'Gue' is the prefix used to denote a human (or possibly it just means 'alien'). Thus 'Gue'vesa' means 'human helper' (or 'alien ally' or whatever) and 'Gue'la' means human soldier (or 'low ranking alien')


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gue: Tau word for Being.
Gue'la: Tau word for Human (lit. “lowest being").
Gue'vesa: Tau word for Human Helper (Auxiliary).

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=1709.0

Sanchez01 wrote:According to my copy of the Tau empire codex, 'la' is one of the suffixes used by the Tau to denote an individuals rank within their caste. For instance, common fire warrior troopers are 'Shas'la' while their team leaders may be 'Shas'ui' and a force commander a 'Shas'el'. Presumably 'Gue' is the prefix used to denote a human (or possibly it just means 'alien'). Thus 'Gue'vesa' means 'human helper' (or 'alien ally' or whatever) and 'Gue'la' means human soldier (or 'low ranking alien')


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gue: Tau word for Being.
Gue'la: Tau word for Human (lit. “lowest being").
Gue'vesa: Tau word for Human Helper (Auxiliary).

http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=1709.0

Yay for arguing in circles! You have proved nothing we didn't already know!

Several posts back, I specifically discussed how the 'la or 'ui denoted military rank. I also have explained how the Tau more commonly use the phrase "Gue'vesa".
Not insulting, and yes, the rank Gue'ui, and above, does exist.

Now that the language dilemma is aside, let's see some other information regarding the Tau oppressing themselves!
(mind you, I am open to new information about the Tau, but so far you have presented little that has been in-line with everything that I have read about the Tau.)

Where do you see Gue'ui?

And as I stated, Gue'la translates into Lowest Being.

As for the Oppression. There has been speculation as for the Tau having an organ that emits a pheromone giving them a control that is not known to man.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ethereal

Now we could argue if this is really oppression. It is an opinionated statement and it could go both ways...

1. They are being forced to do what the Ethereal's want
or
2. It is a natural organ and that is the way their species work...

so i guess call it how you see it

Sanchez01 wrote:Where do you see Gue'ui?

And as I stated, Gue'la translates into Lowest Being.

As for the Oppression. There has been speculation as for the Tau having an organ that emits a pheromone giving them a control that is not known to man.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ethereal

Now we could argue if this is really oppression. It is an opinionated statement and it could go both ways...

1. They are being forced to do what the Ethereal's want
or
2. It is a natural organ and that is the way their species work...

so i guess call it how you see it

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tau_Lexicon
Look for Gue'la. It simply means....human.

Yes, the organ is specifically discussed in the 4th Edition codex, written as an Imperium study of the Tau. Although this is speculation, there may be something to it. I don't have that answer.

Gue'ui is simply the military denotation of a Gue'vesa squad leader.
http://theblackship.org/downloads/rules/Tau_human_auxileries.pdf

I would actually be interested to see if there are any stories of Tau wanting to work outside of their normal Caste work. As of yet I haven't read of anything of the sort, it seems that most born into the Fire Caste want to be in the Fire Caste, and are rewarded by their performance and experience (aka, rank advancement).

Oh.. Ha ha ha... Forgive me for being persnickety. You were talking about Gue'vesa'ui, not a Gue'ui... A Gue'ui would be something different, maybe a space marine, but idk... never seen it used before.

Well as for working outside of the Caste. I don't see that possible... Each caste seems to be its own sub-species. Think like Humans and Cavemen (I don't want to attempt to spell their name). So I believe its is more of a "You are born to do this, and only this" deal. Plus adding the culture in which they are raised, the propaganda they are fed, the morals issued to them, they have no wish to do anything else... What the Ethereals have done is truly amazing in its own right. But being an Alien to them, Humans have no place at their side. Our nature is too complex for them to fully understand and to deal with.

What would you say about O'Shovah? Doesn't he have no intention of returning to the Empire? Now that he is free from the Ethereal's grips he see differently?

Sanchez01 wrote:
Well as for working outside of the Caste. I don't see that possible... Each caste seems to be its own sub-species. Think like Humans and Cavemen (I don't want to attempt to spell their name). So I believe its is more of a "You are born to do this, and only this" deal. Plus adding the culture in which they are raised, the propaganda they are fed, the morals issued to them, they have no wish to do anything else... What the Ethereals have done is truly amazing in its own right. But being an Alien to them, Humans have no place at their side. Our nature is too complex for them to fully understand and to deal with.

I couldn't tell you if it would work on Earth or not. From what is written, the humans under Tau rule do not seem unhappy, only fearful of Imperial retribution.

Sanchez01 wrote:What would you say about O'Shovah? Doesn't he have no intention of returning to the Empire? Now that he is free from the Ethereal's grips he see differently?

Again this is another Tau story that is very vague. It is only commonly cited that O'Shovah couldn't tolerate the practice of trying to unite the galaxy under one Empire, and that he believed the idea of avoiding hand-to-hand combat to be idiotic. I doubt that they will have him return, but I am not sure whether it was the lack of Ethereal's influence on him, or his own personal frustrations with the Tau Empire that led him astray.

I would tend to think that the Ethereal control over the Tau is not comparable to that of insects (aka, the Tau are not mindless drones). An anecdote in Chapter Approved 2004, leads me to believe this, as it contains a story of a Fire Caste commander becoming quite angry, and then being calmed by the Ethereal nearby. As far as this relates to O'Shovah, I believe he left due to his own personal frustrations combined with his hot-headed (Fire Caste, and his Sept are both known for it) nature.