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dynath wrote:Their players are a bit fanatical and sometimes a bit whiney, (my brother plays them which is likely where i get this interpretation) there have been way to many DE players complaining they are gonna get Squatted, actually heard less complaints from squat players when the squats got squatted on...

Not to single you out specifically (Cause you're not the only person who says this) but how do you justify saying DE players are characteristically whiny... When every army has an overabundance of whiners? Especially many SM players. This is how some SM players sound to DE ears: "(insert random SM chapter) need their own codex and their own separate sprues with relevant shoulder pads and their own separate rules and fluff! Painting them the right color isn't good enough! I can't play that chapter without the right shoulder pads and my own codex! I refuse!" or "(insert any SM chapter with a codex) have a crappy new codex! It needs to be redone! The Chapter has been destroyed by newness!"

After the way DE have been treated, DE players have no sympathy for these people. Even Tau and Tyranid players complain about their army not being good enough... What are you complaining about? You just got a new codex last edition!

And yes I'm aware that I am whining. IMO, DE players are entitled to a little indignation at this point.

Oh and the Squat players thing? No, DE do not whine as much as Squat players. Back when GW had its own forums, the whining from Squat players was so shrill, that GW mods had to resort to locking all threads that so much as mentioned the word "Squats".

Archonate is my hero.

DE players have no right to whine as much as Squat players. Remember, Squats players actually lost their army. DE are merely waiting for another update to their perfectly-legal and currently-supported army.

There is a big difference.

I think it is insulting to the Squat players to even suggest that the situation is at all comparable.

I don't hate them, I don't love them, but I like them. They are good on w40k's universe.

jsullivanlaw wrote
If every damn marine chapter can have it's own codex i think eldar can have two... At least they don't ride giant wolves. Especially when DE are entirely different than the craft worlders. DE do not play like Craft world eldar. They have many many more vehicles but much easier to kill their vehicles. They have far more firepower but far less staying power. I love the dark eldar fluff. Fate worse than death anyone? I think the dark eldar are great army for hobbiests as well. They do have a lot of ugly units... I think the vehicles are just fine though. For the ugly models you can be creative and convert stuff from fantasy. I mean there are like a bazillion different kind of elf models out there from fantasy to use. Even for the hobby-challenged, it isn't that hard to put a gun on a witch elf.

Actually I think eldar should have 5, I think most armies should have five really its a good number and would improve the quality of codex products. I actually think marines should be limited to 1 combining all the varients together to make one really big really good book worth the money we pay. Generally i'd rather see the Imperial armies compressed so they aren't so dominating in the game. The DE are an interesting concept with lots of potential but are really just a varient of Eldar in the same way SW are a varient of Ulra Marines, an off shoot that behaves differently. Its like all Ford cars are Fords but the Sedan handles differently than the Sports model, you don't go to a different dealership for the sports model (least not in my tax bracket). Really if you get down to brass tacks equal racial representation (wow that sounds politically correct) should be had by all the 40k races.

As for modeling, well every army is good for hobbiests and every army has its share of hideous or stupid looking models, but the trouble comes when you HAVE to convert everything and you HAVE to make do. I could scratch build a SM army out of old reaper minis and it would be both rewarding for me as a hobbiest and look damn fine when i'm done doesn't mean that the game is supposed to work that way. We chuck money at GW least they could do is make the generic ugly models cheaper than the unique cool looking ones. Their vehicles are OK in my book. I like things to be believable looking and I don't believe any of the DE vehicles are good enough to go to war on, they look flimsy and more like parade floats that anything to me. I wouldn't be afraid if a hundred screaming knife weilding maniacs dropped out of hyperspace on a version of jaba's sail barge with a cow catcher on the front no matter how mysterious they are. physically the models aren't a hook for me, they are just... meeh.

[qoute] Erasoketa wrote
The reason of why they are so mysterious is that they do not have a hundred pages of anything. The existing codex (I own both versions) has like 2 pages of fluff + short stories. Of course they are mysterious, they barely have official fluff. Even the 5th Edition rulebook has a longer text on fluff than that codex. If a good codex would be developed, they would lose automatically that halo of ¿twilight? and would become much better known. And that would be great. But it hasn't been written yet, so we don't know anything. This reply was endorsed by Captain Obvious!
[/qoute]

Yeah thats pretty much my point, "fluff could exist but it hasn't been written yet." Write some really cool fiction and spam GW with it, come on people. The reason cool stuff exists for other races is cause people wrote it and hurled it at GW.

[qoute] Erasoketa wrote
Come on, if they squat BTs and DE... Damn, my third army are SoB... I would move inmediatly to Infinity.
[/qoute]

I might have mentioned this in my dialog about making humanity smaller but man do i wish they'd squat some of the SM. BT is close, BA seemed on the edge there for a while too with the digital codex stuff and then subsiquent disappearance from the artwork. Now I play BA so it might come as a surprise for me to yell SQUAT ME. I mean i love my army and stuff but man it just gets old having some new varient of SMs pop out of the warp every week. draw a line guys. do like eldar and have a whole bunch of different squad types that can drop in and out. I'd rather see a system where its quality over quantity. And yeah i know i can say squat me because it isn't going to happen but it would be awesome if my army would become myth and legend like the squats as apposed to being drown in fads like the varient SMs. Make me a Primarch figure for my army before you make another entirely new chapter with different shoulder pads and 2 extra troop choices. For that maybe make me an army that looks cool, acts cool, and is all unique before that. An invasion by Hrud would be funny as would a random Vespid uprising. maybe an army of space frogs and space bunnies... I know where I can get models for that now we just need rules...

Archonate wrote
Not to single you out specifically (Cause you're not the only person who says this) but how do you justify saying DE players are characteristically whiny... When every army has an overabundance of whiners? Especially many SM players. This is how some SM players sound to DE ears: "(insert random SM chapter) need their own codex and their own separate sprues with relevant shoulder pads and their own separate rules and fluff! Painting them the right color isn't good enough! I can't play that chapter without the right shoulder pads and my own codex! I refuse!" or "(insert any SM chapter with a codex) have a crappy new codex! It needs to be redone! The Chapter has been destroyed by newness!"

After the way DE have been treated, DE players have no sympathy for these people. Even Tau and Tyranid players complain about their army not being good enough... What are you complaining about? You just got a new codex last edition!

And yes I'm aware that I am whining. IMO, DE players are entitled to a little indignation at this point.

Part of this prespective is certainly colored by my brother who once attended a tourne and accused 3 people of cheating because his Kabal leader fell in 2 turns of assault. Now removing my brother for the equation you can search the forums for evidence of what I refer to as "whiny" behavior. You are correct that all army players complain at and there is a consistant trend to complain a lot around new edition time. Most of what I see are constant complaints, lementing the lack of models, lack of a new codex, lack of support, complaints about GW nerfing certain rules, complaints about vehicle death. there will aways be a certain amount of that going on with every army but thats the majority of DE threads i've ever read or DE players i've personally talked to at Tourne. But complaints aren't whining to me until that the complaint has been made a thousand times and the articulation of the complaint is distilled into a formula of "but my army needs this" or "my army doesn't have that". Complaints can be constructive, whining isn't. I haven't seen many constructive threads about how to fix the DE and when i do they soon get bogged down in no, like the Forgeworld DE thread i joined, the only comments that actual DE players have is "no don't do that" as if doing nothing is better than something. Its this kind of deafest whining which hampers the army and it is ill befitting an army that is pretty much built on hostage taking. I imagine that there are also a lot of DE players who just keep their mouths closed about things because it doesn't bother them but those aren't the ones i've heard and more's the pitty because I'd like to hear or read some constructive criticism and I imagine so would GW. They may not actually take the criticism but it would show interest at least. I'd personally like to see the DE fixed and game worthy if for no better reason than my brother's army.

I don't hold much sympathy for whining in general DE, SM, Tau, CS, SoB, Nid, none of the whining from them moves me to tears, and maybe DE do have a valid reason to whine but at the same time maybe the effort would be better dedicated to improving the army. I don't see fixit threads and I don't see where to find alternate models threads or scratch build DE threads or custom fluff threads all I see is pity me threads. Truth is I'm more than a little indifferent to the plight of the army as a result and it took me a lot of thought to actually come up with the complaints i have about them I could do the same with every army and game system in existance if i tried and thats a huge pitfall in the whole army.

Archonate wrote
Oh and the Squat players thing? No, DE do not whine as much as Squat players. Back when GW had its own forums, the whining from Squat players was so shrill, that GW mods had to resort to locking all threads that so much as mentioned the word "Squats".

I have never actually met a squats player, haven't been in the game long enough. My perspective is from current forums i attend such as here, heresy, and librarium. I understand that the needless slaughter of an entire civilization is a good reason to whine. I suppose the whining has since died down so maybe my statement here is a complete misnomer.



Wow, thats a run on post...

There were never really any squats players to meet...

(It was just a single box set, 2 metal bike models and a handful of metal power armor guys).

The squats idea was silly. They were just dwarves in space, and not really flushed out at all. The comedy left the game years ago, especially once the orks got junkyardwar brutalized and are no longer the lanky comedians they use to be.

The Dark Eldar idea is much better, even with minimal fluff, more robust and with a much richer model line and concept.

It'd be a shame if they got discontinued.

JohnHwangDD wrote:DE players have no right to whine as much as Squat players. Remember, Squats players actually lost their army. DE are merely waiting for another update to their perfectly-legal and currently-supported army.

There is a big difference.

I think it is insulting to the Squat players to even suggest that the situation is at all comparable.

It's pretty comparable. Right now DE are where Squats were in 2nd edition. They had a tiny smattering of legal rules for those who wanted to play them. They watched as everybody got updates, while always hearing rumors of their own imminent codex... Sounds familiar.

But I think DE will be updated where Squats were dropped. I never said the shrillness of Squat players wasn't justified, but there's nothing to be done for them now. DE can still be helped. Maybe it's all this 'whining' that convinces GW to finally throw them a bone.

At least the Squats players/fans have a clear and definitive statement from GW. They're gone, period, and GW isn't going to bring them back. Like it or not, there's no uncertainty or ongoing angst about it.

What bothers me about GW and DE isn't so much that they've not had any rules or model updates for so long but that GW has left them in limbo for so long. For me, the uncertainty (mostly 'when', rather than 'if') is the most frustrating part.

I dont' think this is better or worse than what happened with the Squats, just different. Erstwhile Squat "players" have a bunch of stupid looking but otherwise useless models but no reason to spend any more time/money/effort/emotion over them. DE players have a collection of outdated but playable models, but don't have sufficient information to know whether or how to invest their time/money/energy/emotion into them.

So much of this angst could be alleviated if GW would simply communicate the situation. I don't expect any firm release dates or details, I just want some simple honesty about what's going on.

Given my choice, I'd almost rather have DE officially 'squatted' than remain in Limbo for another year (or 2? 3? more?).

LMoE

[For the record, I think that GW did the right thing by eliminating the Squats from the 40K universe they were developing. They faced a decision of whether RT/40K was simply going to be a goofy space version of their Fantasy world (c.f. Blood Bowl) or was going to have a coherent "Look and Feel" and be a credible setting. Whether by a lack of imagination or a fundamental incompatibility of the Dwarf archetype with the emerging 40K universe [I vote the later], there wasn't a satisfying way to reimagine the Squats in the same way as the Eldar or Orks. Which is a wordy way to say that "Squats were Dumb".]

Well , I dislike them because really,they are only evil elves and also because their fluff is kinda wierd.

LastManOnEarth wrote:What bothers me about GW and DE isn't so much that they've not had any rules or model updates for so long but that GW has left them in limbo for so long.

The DE Codex was updated in 2003.

Space Wolves received no updates whatsoever until their recent, standalone Codex.

DaemonHunters is 2002, a full year older than Dark Eldar.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

LastManOnEarth wrote:What bothers me about GW and DE isn't so much that they've not had any rules or model updates for so long but that GW has left them in limbo for so long.

The DE Codex was updated in 2003.

Space Wolves received no updates whatsoever until their recent, standalone Codex.

Only when you don't count the updates that SWs got. Like every time a new vanilla SM codex was released. But for some inane reason, that doesn't count as an update.

And why would one count an update to Codex: Space Marines as an update to Codex: Space Wolves?

So we should also count updates to the Rulebook as updates to all Codices. For example, Rapid-Fire changed significantly in 5E, so that's really an update to both Splinter Rifles, and SW Bolters.

If that's the case, then both DE and SW were updated 2 years ago, so you have no basis for complaint at all.

In any case, if you count an indirect update to C: SW (also C: WH and C: DH ) via C: SM, then you must count DE as having been updated in 2003.

And even then, Necrons are older.

Aren't DE getting dropped by GW? Anyway, I dislike Dark Eldar because the're so cruel.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

LastManOnEarth wrote:What bothers me about GW and DE isn't so much that they've not had any rules or model updates for so long but that GW has left them in limbo for so long.

The DE Codex was updated in 2003.

Space Wolves received no updates whatsoever until their recent, standalone Codex.

DaemonHunters is 2002, a full year older than Dark Eldar.

I think you've got your chronology wrong.

The DE second edition codex is (c)2002.

The DaemonHunters and WitchHunters codices are (c)2003.

I don't believe I or anyone else is claiming that ONLY DE have been neglected; the Inquisitional armies and Necrons (and until now, SW) deserve the same sort of acknowledgement from GW as to the 'state of the army' and their intention to support it. Each of these also have slightly different histories of support and recognition from GW [e.g. Necrons were never removed from the shelves and made mail order only, nor have I heard any rumors that they were being squatted.]

The 2002 second edition DE Codex is the same as the original (1998) DE Codex except that it includes rules text for vehicle upgrades, revising/simplifying Wyche weapon rules, and lowering the cost of Reavers from grossly overpriced to only moderately overpriced. [Perhaps I'm missing one other minor fix/correction]. It was a little more substantial than a FAQ/errata but far short of an new/updated Codex. In most ways, DE are still operating off the 1998 Codex and models of that era. The 2002 second edition was/is appreciated in that it corrected some obvious defects of the first edition, but that was still 7 years and 2 editions of the basic rules ago.

LMoE

I have a extreme, somewould say unhealthy, obsession with Dark Eldar.

chromedog wrote:Better get him back under the bridge then.

I'm indifferent to the army.
I loathe most of the current models.
With new models (suitably eldar-looking ones. Praise be to the mighty Jes) they might attract me.

@Barkdreg tl;dr: Goths and Emos are NOT the same. There is a difference of about 20 years between them. There are similarities - but that's what happens when a 'fringe' culture goes 'mainstream', you get bleed through.
- I was a goth, when younger and not so long-in-the-tooth (there, threw in a 'vampire' reference as well).

Emo is totally the new goth, don't be silly. They basically are the same counter-culture movement, just with a new costume and a bit of re-packaging.

Barkdreg - I actually got through your whole post, and I don't think you're trolling. I'm a pretty rabid DE supporter, but I'm not so foolish to be able to deny the points you bring up.

As something of a Sadist, in the grand scheme of the cosmos and on the table-top, DE absolutely appeal to me. I like the aesthetics of the army, as they provide a true grim even Chaos cannot. Subtle nuances of horror and terror (which they tried to achieve with DE but honestly failed) are one of the last parts of evil that actually stimulate me. So in my super villains, DE. I'm sure there are other people out there who think that Chaos is actually more of a caricature of evil than DE, though.

To address your points though :

DE appeal to goths : Absolutely.
DE appeals to emos : Absolutely, again. They are so, so very tragic, tragedy is the cornerstone of emo.
The tone of the models doesn't belong in a PG wargame : Probably. When re-done, I hope they are more surreal and bizarre - rather than outright Clive Barker rip-offs.
Glass Cannons don't work in strategy games : If your definition of not working, is shortening the game to the point where enjoyment isn't maximized - then I would concede that. I do think that, while the concept of strict black/white overwhelming or underwhelming force isn't a completely healthy thing for any balanced strategy game - it's definitely a market that needs to be addressed. I think the strategy nihilists and cynics are the real DE demographic, with the secondary aesthetic pull going to the goth/vampire/emo/alternatives.

The underlying emphasis on bondage, rape, torture, slavery and so forth do create a pretty negative image. It's an easy cop-out to assume that a mother watching her kid won't really *get* the models, or won't think anything beyond them existing purely in the realm of fantasy but when you really think about the DE range - some of the concepts are pretty disturbing.

Nice post though, I do think you let your own moral bias take over a bit - but that's only human eh?

I was indifferent to the plight of the Dark Eldar before, but now I hate them. I hate them and want to see them squatted. I am tired of seeing every news and rumor thread on every forum I visit derailed by whining about the Dark Eldar and who really deserves a new codex next. It's always:

New Nid Codex Thread....

A: Warriors should get a 4+ save standard

B: Nah, I'd rather they got BS3 standard.

C: I'd rather they stayed BS2 standard, but have an option for up to BS4 with biomorphs

D: Who cares about nids?! Give us Dark Eldar, Dark Eldar, Dark Eldar!

A: There goes the thread....

B. Tell me about it.

D: What you don't think Dark Eldar deserve a new codex? Huh? Huh?

C: Gawd.

D: You nid players don't need a new codex. DE need the next codex.

A: As I was saying, I think the warriors are too fragile with a 5+ save...

D: Dark Eldar! Dark Eldar!

Arschbombe wrote: I am tired of seeing every news and rumor thread on every forum I visit derailed by whining about the Dark Eldar and who really deserves a new codex next.

I am tired of this as well. Come on, where are the Necron whiners!? The Dark Angels whiners!?

Chaos whiners wrote:WAAAAHHHH Our codex sucks compared to the last one WAAAAAHHHH

....yeah.

But I'm not tired of it enough to hate the dark eldar for it. It's not their fault they have a whiney emo player base! I like the 'idea' of the dark eldar, dark pirates who strike from anywhere and nowhere, give no quarter, and have powerful weaponry to boot. They could use much better models (I might actually make some someday out of regular eldar models....donno what to build the raider out of though.) but all in all I actually like the Dark Eldar. In fact, I like them "as is" with their current book. It allows for a powerbuild, and some less powerfull builds that can still be effective (and I think they might be able to pull off a "guardian-spam" type of list with enough Talos or something.)

Love the idea.
"Meh" about most of the models.
Have to remember GW is a business catering to it's customer base and resist the urge to hop a plane and go strangle someone at corporate with my bare hands every time a new SM 'dex comes out. What is it, 7 or 8 since DE?
At this rate, GW will have the Tyranids eat Cormorrah when they lose the entire DE fanbase over the "No New Dex Blues"

JohnHwangDD wrote:And why would one count an update to Codex: Space Marines as an update to Codex: Space Wolves?

In any case, if you count an indirect update to C: SW (also C: WH and C: DH ) via C: SM, then you must count DE as having been updated in 2003.

And even then, Necrons are older.

Though just to be clear the DE "update" was them actually just adding in some FAQ rulings and reprinting the book with a nice little new emblem on the front. One might submit then that it is only with FAQ releases that one should count updates. With that as the concept we're tied for oldest with DH/WH and Necrons.

I will happily concede the point that we have had a more recent updating of our codex then some other codices. I also will state we have the oldest codex - since I do not believe finally giving us vehicle upgrades, and some new wargear should really count as a "new" codex. You may feel free to have a different opinion about this.

That is untrue. I have a 1st printing DE Codex, and the revised DE Codex does more than just address Errata.

In the original DE Codex, where is the Wych HQ? Where is the option to take aWych Cult without taking Lilith? Where did the extra Wargear options come from?

Sure, DE got a small update, but DE did get an update that comprised adding things above and beyond what was in their original Codex.

While you may not be happy with that, the fact remains that DE were specifcially given new upgrades and options that other Codices didn't get.

While the incessant whining and complaints have some small justification, constantly overstating things is unbecoming.

Indeed, in many ways, it would have been better if GW had never updated the Dark Eldar at all.

At least some of the whining would be justified.

Thor665 wrote:I will happily concede the point that we have had a more recent updating of our codex then some other codices. I also will state we have the oldest codex - since I do not believe finally giving us vehicle upgrades, and some new wargear should really count as a "new" codex. You may feel free to have a different opinion about this.

Thank you for classifying me as whining.

Quite frankly I've never met a dark eldar player who wasn't a little off in the head. Maybe you're the mythical sane DE player, and it's everyother DE player who is crazy.

And for those of you think that your half naked toy soldiers don't make people look at you funny..... they do, you just haven't noticed it yet.

Angron wrote:Quite frankly I've never met a dark eldar player who wasn't a little off in the head. Maybe you're the mythical sane DE player, and it's everyother DE player who is crazy.

And for those of you think that your half naked toy soldiers don't make people look at you funny..... they do, you just haven't noticed it yet.

I was almost a DE player, and people look at me funny anyway. So what difference would it have made?

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:

Angron wrote:Quite frankly I've never met a dark eldar player who wasn't a little off in the head. Maybe you're the mythical sane DE player, and it's everyother DE player who is crazy.

And for those of you think that your half naked toy soldiers don't make people look at you funny..... they do, you just haven't noticed it yet.

I was almost a DE player, and people look at me funny anyway. So what difference would it have made?

I think that was his point. Only "off" people would play DE to begin with, right Angron?

Because yelling BLOOD FOR THE SKULL GOD YARGHHHHHH while playing evil space barbarians is totally well adjusted.

starbomber109 wrote:
I am tired of this as well. Come on, where are the Necron whiners!? The Dark Angels whiners!?

....yeah.

But I'm not tired of it enough to hate the dark eldar for it. It's not their fault they have a whiney emo player base! I like the 'idea' of the dark eldar, dark pirates who strike from anywhere and nowhere, give no quarter, and have powerful weaponry to boot. They could use much better models (I might actually make some someday out of regular eldar models....donno what to build the raider out of though.) but all in all I actually like the Dark Eldar. In fact, I like them "as is" with their current book. It allows for a powerbuild, and some less powerfull builds that can still be effective (and I think they might be able to pull off a "guardian-spam" type of list with enough Talos or something.)

I find this to be quite humorous, since I play both Dark Angels and Necrons, and have no problems with their current books at all.

Maybe it's just my craziness, but what makes DE players so different for wanting an update? As far as I can discern, the only difference between DE players and everybody else is that everybody else gets updated codices for all their complaining.

Angron wrote:Quite frankly I've never met a dark eldar player who wasn't a little off in the head. Maybe you're the mythical sane DE player, and it's everyother DE player who is crazy.

And for those of you think that your half naked toy soldiers don't make people look at you funny..... they do, you just haven't noticed it yet.

Now THAT is funny.

RxGhost wrote:
I find this to be quite humorous, since I play both Dark Angels and Necrons, and have no problems with their current books at all.

You did chop out my bit about Chaos whiners though, you've got them in their sig as well.

Arschbombe wrote:I was indifferent to the plight of the Dark Eldar before, but now I hate them. I hate them and want to see them squatted. I am tired of seeing every news and rumor thread on every forum I visit derailed by whining about the Dark Eldar and who really deserves a new codex next. It's always:

New Nid Codex Thread....

A: Warriors should get a 4+ save standard

B: Nah, I'd rather they got BS3 standard.

C: I'd rather they stayed BS2 standard, but have an option for up to BS4 with biomorphs

D: Who cares about nids?! Give us Dark Eldar, Dark Eldar, Dark Eldar!

A: There goes the thread....

B. Tell me about it.

D: What you don't think Dark Eldar deserve a new codex? Huh? Huh?

C: Gawd.

D: You nid players don't need a new codex. DE need the next codex.

A: As I was saying, I think the warriors are too fragile with a 5+ save...

D: Dark Eldar! Dark Eldar!

I hope they squat nids' and i hope the fluff reasoning behind it is that "Squats ate them". Poetic justice.