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Tarraques???

(BTW, Ogryn and ratlings are minimalised to say the least)

@kuro: the reason the other races exist in 40k is because they they've been developed starting in RT (Eldar, Nids & Orks; Ogryns & Ratlings), or 2E (Necrons).

That said, you're conveniently forgetting that Dorfs in Space along with Slann in space got canned going from 2E to 3E, along with many other whatnots getting lost over the years - Beastmen regiments, human bombs, IG Jetbikes, SM jetbikes, Zoats, Ambulls, Jokaero, etc. and then Fimir, etc. on the WFB side.
____

Oh, yeah, Nids ~Lizardmen, Ratlings ~Hobbits/Halflings...

So the reason Dark Eldar is being attacked is because they're relatively new? So if DE were around from the beginning, there wouldn't be a problem with "drow in space"? I don't agree. Tau are newer than DE, but even they have more respect.
Why is it ok to make an entirely new race of fish people, but dark elves (which at least have a fantasy correllary) are seen as wrong?

Actually for relations to fantasy I keep looking at empire steem tanks and thinking about hammerheads

But Dark Eldar have a fantasy version. The fact that they did not have a 40K version probably bugged someone at GW. Dwarfs in space might even come back (And did come back in BFG, not as squats though, something entirely diffrent)

and what the hell is a Jokaero, all I came up with when I googled it was some random website.

Jokaero are these peaceful orangoutangs who have an innate ability to make technological whatnots without any concious thought or effort. Throw them in a room with tech, and they can make a plasma cannon into a finger ring and power field generator that fits in the palm of one's hand. The problem is that it's not controllable, and they don't want to be bothered. So, behaviorally, they're like pandas, except that, if you put them in a zoo to make stuff, they'll likely blast their way out and go home.

Firstly, for those who said they're a weak tabletop army, I'll play you =P
The only grudges i have against dark eldar is that
1. most of the models are just so old, and unattractive. I converted a lot of my army from Dark Elf models...

2. The codex is so old! I'm not going to defend those that say 'Codex creep Lost me (or won me) that game!' , i do decently, but not Over / Under powered. it just needs an update.

Secondly, The fluff wouldn't be that weak if there was actually a decent volume of it.. there's a good ammount of bad fluff for every other race, it's just that the output ammount of Dark Eldar fluff is about 10% (or less) than for other races, so there aren't great experienced writers doing our fluff..

kuro_khan wrote:dark elves?

I love the Dark Eldar. Except when I have to play them.

I have never played against Dark Eldar. Nor have I even looked at their codex. I only know what fluff was about in the Rogue Trader days (I then took a 2 edition hiatus, returning to the game for fourth ed.) I am fairly ambivalent about the fluff/models. They look alright from what I've seen. Dated, sure.

I don't really hate the Dark Eldar, but the Dark Eldar players...that might be a bit of a different story. I hear all their complaints about needing a new codex, but I don't ever hear a great reason why they should be given one.

Okay, oldest codex. How is that fact causing a DE player from losing games?

Ugly/expensive/outdated models. Other armies have their ugly models. Anyone play against Valhallans or Tallarn recently? They could use a new model or two.

For me, it's about how the army fares in games. The one solid report I have about the DE comes from a group that some friends of mine in Southern Oregon play in. A woman with a DE army shows up at every tourney and wins down there. Now, this could be just due to a female being able to school a bunch of wargamers any day of the week from their lack of experience dealing with females socially. Or, it could just be that, even old, with a bunch of ugly, outdated models; that DE are still competitive.

Dark Eldar are competitive. They need a new codex to update their rules-it's kind of hard to read/interpret for 5th edition, and they've got a bunch of now meaningless rules and wargear- but there's nothing at all wrong with them from a competitive standpoint.

They definitly urgently need a new codex with more fluff and better looking models.
I think people don't play DE because most people don't know/understand the fluf behind them (example: ME). And their units seems less colorful.. I don't know how I can put it but their units are not charming like the other races.

People keep saying DE are competive, but every race is competitive. However, how many races have to restrict themselves to 4 units in order to be so? Archon(Dracon) w/ retinue, Wyches, Warriors and Ravagers are basically the only useful units in the entire codex. The other stuff can be used, but it's just not to the same caliber as the other stuff, similiar to Tau Vespids, Chaos Possessed and Necron Flayed Ones.
Also, if DE are so competitve, why are there so few players? People gravitate towards effective armies, especially if you can win easily with them. You don't need as much strategy to win with Space Marines/Chaos as with DE, so DE players basically need to be better strategicians (is this a word?) for the same result. Maybe a new codex that allows casual people to win with DE could help us out.

I love DE.
They were one of my first armies and I played several tourneys with them in the 3rd and 4th ed.
Now they hit the shelf but I'm toying with the idea to bring them back to the battle field.

I love the Dark Eldar, I think there currently underpowered due to old codex = no good options
When (if?) there new codex comes out, I intend to start an army

P.S. Eldar aren't elves.

Brother-Pie wrote:P.S. Eldar aren't elves.

Yes they are denial is not just a river.

The name Eldar came from the Tolkins work as a type of Elf. IIRC it translates in to 'Starborn' or somthing like that.

If their not Elves, Squats arn't Dwarves!

Weren't they called Space Elves at some point?

I think they may have been. I know Orks were once Space orks and Squats Were space Dwarfs (or you could buy kits labled as such)

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I knew for a fact that we'd get Admech and Chaos LatD in their place as new GEQs, I'd gladly see DE as the sacrificial lamb.

YEA! Cause thats what we need in 40k! MORE CHAOS AND IMPERIUM stuff


I love the DE. I want them to get a redo so badly. I think the fluff is good (tho it does need a bit of an update) Really its the minis that are so bad. Also a main reason people dont play them, is I havnt seen a DE model in a hobby store in YEARs. And people are affraid to buy an army that could get dumped. Tho with all the rumors and that picture floating around, I know they are getting done. Just a question of when GW graces us with their presence

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I knew for a fact that we'd get Admech and Chaos LatD in their place as new GEQs, I'd gladly see DE as the sacrificial lamb.

The sad thing is that the only reason all three don't get attention is simply an unwillingness to put in the time and effort required on the part of GW.

Its like what happened to Squats. I seem to remember something being said that the reason they were discontinued was because there was nobody working at GW that wanted to work on the army. Customer demand, apparently, being immaterial when compared to employee desire....

Wall of text powers, activate! Form of a long-winded rant! Shape of a lurker!

...

Ahem. Sorry about that--I'm in an odd mood. To be honest, I don't see the point in the Dark Eldar. I don't understand how their society continues to function under what seems to be a glut of hedonism, sadism, and murder for fun and profit. They're like every other Dark Elf force ever imagined--completely illogical and rather silly. Plus, there's something about them that seems to attract the "vampire" crowd (and yes, the quotation marks are very, very intentional). So they raid and rape and pillage and torture and all that because there's an evil god draining their souls, which I guess makes them attractive to both goths and emos. Random aside: is there really a difference between goths and emos? I mean, they both look the same, they both have crap taste in music, and they both are rather depressing to be around, a bit like the elderly mad.

Then there's the models. Look, I know they're old and they're dated and there's an update coming around. That said, I happen to be an adult male with a decent job and a fiancee and all that stuff that makes you feel like you're a grown up, aside from a kid (thank the Powers that May or May Not Be). It's bad enough that I play with little green men, but if we change those little green men for little S&M fetishists, then that just adds a whole new level of creepiness. I mean, my soon-to-be inlaws come over for dinner on occasion and I have models out constantly. Orks are fine--yeah, it's goofy and childish, but then again, so am I. Dark Eldar, on the other hand, just wouldn't be kosher. I mean, imagine explaining that to a group of WASPs.

The Witches are bad enough, although they just push the envelope. Then you have the Hellraiser-inspired Grotesques and the like, and finally, you run into Cruellagh. Imagine you're a suspect on an episode of SVU and Mariska Hargitay, while searching your house, comes across your Dark Eldar army. Your guilt would be proven even faster than if you asked for a lawyer, I'd bet, and even if you weren't the actual Criminal of the Week, they'd probably still bust you for kiddie porn or something like that.

If you're at the FLGS and you're playing against a kid, mom in tow and everything, do you really want to have the pierced-and-inked bondage fairies out for everyone to see? I mean, I know, they're not that bad, but they're still bad, and it still says something about one's character to even possess an army like that, let alone whipping it out for everyone to see. It's like having a force of those Diaznettes that all the fanboys drool over--sure, they may be pretty models, but at the end of the day you're the geek playing with topless models. What you do in the comfort of your own home is your own business, I suppose, but there's a reason why public indecency is a crime.

It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth and makes me look askance at those who play them. Moving on.

So, thus far we've hit the improbable (and cartoonishly ridiculous) background of the DE, such as it is, and the whole "bondage" thing. Can I then go on to say that I think that glass cannons don't work in any games? Either they're way too fragile and thus ineffective or their punch is so strong that there's nothing left to hit back. Far too often, the glass cannon becomes the lightning bruiser, and that just doesn't make for good gaming.

I'll wrap things up with one last point. The Dark Eldar are not described as one of the "big players" in the 40k universe (of course, neither are the Tau, but I dislike them as well). It seems to me that it would make far more sense to focus on the movers and shakers of the universe and push the bit players back as needed. Hell, we're still needing a Rebel/Cultist list, if you ask me.

Armandloft wrote:

I don't really hate the Dark Eldar, but the Dark Eldar players...that might be a bit of a different story. I hear all their complaints about needing a new codex, but I don't ever hear a great reason why they should be given one.

The Dark Eldar rule that every unit that is run down in a Sweeping Advance counts as a "Victory Point", aka instead of being killed it is captured and taken as a slave! Used to be a pretty sweet rule unit...Victory Points don't exist anymore!

KingCracker wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I knew for a fact that we'd get Admech and Chaos LatD in their place as new GEQs, I'd gladly see DE as the sacrificial lamb.

YEA! Cause thats what we need in 40k! MORE CHAOS AND IMPERIUM stuff

If they're not Chaos / Imperial MEQs, then heck yeah, we need them!

Saldiven wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I knew for a fact that we'd get Admech and Chaos LatD in their place as new GEQs, I'd gladly see DE as the sacrificial lamb.

The sad thing is that the only reason all three don't get attention is simply an unwillingness to put in the time and effort required on the part of GW.

Customer demand, apparently, being immaterial when compared to employee desire....

Customer demand measured as sales, or non-monetary wishlists?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Customer demand measured as sales, or non-monetary wishlists?

both. If DE would get some half decent models, we would see an increase in sales. Isn't that what happened to Orks? Hell, isn't that what happened to SW?

And if DE would get a turn in the spotlight, people would consider actually making those wishlists a reality...

I love them because they have gotten me loads of free gak (from tournaments) this year!

All Hail the True Kindred!....and Free gak!

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:Wall of text powers, activate! Form of a long-winded rant! Shape of a lurker!

...

Ahem. Sorry about that--I'm in an odd mood. To be honest, I don't see the point in the Dark Eldar. I don't understand how their society continues to function under what seems to be a glut of hedonism, sadism, and murder for fun and profit. They're like every other Dark Elf force ever imagined--completely illogical and rather silly. Plus, there's something about them that seems to attract the "vampire" crowd (and yes, the quotation marks are very, very intentional). So they raid and rape and pillage and torture and all that because there's an evil god draining their souls, which I guess makes them attractive to both goths and emos. Random aside: is there really a difference between goths and emos? I mean, they both look the same, they both have crap taste in music, and they both are rather depressing to be around, a bit like the elderly mad.

Then there's the models. Look, I know they're old and they're dated and there's an update coming around. That said, I happen to be an adult male with a decent job and a fiancee and all that stuff that makes you feel like you're a grown up, aside from a kid (thank the Powers that May or May Not Be). It's bad enough that I play with little green men, but if we change those little green men for little S&M fetishists, then that just adds a whole new level of creepiness. I mean, my soon-to-be inlaws come over for dinner on occasion and I have models out constantly. Orks are fine--yeah, it's goofy and childish, but then again, so am I. Dark Eldar, on the other hand, just wouldn't be kosher. I mean, imagine explaining that to a group of WASPs.

The Witches are bad enough, although they just push the envelope. Then you have the Hellraiser-inspired Grotesques and the like, and finally, you run into Cruellagh. Imagine you're a suspect on an episode of SVU and Mariska Hargitay, while searching your house, comes across your Dark Eldar army. Your guilt would be proven even faster than if you asked for a lawyer, I'd bet, and even if you weren't the actual Criminal of the Week, they'd probably still bust you for kiddie porn or something like that.

If you're at the FLGS and you're playing against a kid, mom in tow and everything, do you really want to have the pierced-and-inked bondage fairies out for everyone to see? I mean, I know, they're not that bad, but they're still bad, and it still says something about one's character to even possess an army like that, let alone whipping it out for everyone to see. It's like having a force of those Diaznettes that all the fanboys drool over--sure, they may be pretty models, but at the end of the day you're the geek playing with topless models. What you do in the comfort of your own home is your own business, I suppose, but there's a reason why public indecency is a crime.

It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth and makes me look askance at those who play them. Moving on.

So, thus far we've hit the improbable (and cartoonishly ridiculous) background of the DE, such as it is, and the whole "bondage" thing. Can I then go on to say that I think that glass cannons don't work in any games? Either they're way too fragile and thus ineffective or their punch is so strong that there's nothing left to hit back. Far too often, the glass cannon becomes the lightning bruiser, and that just doesn't make for good gaming.

I'll wrap things up with one last point. The Dark Eldar are not described as one of the "big players" in the 40k universe (of course, neither are the Tau, but I dislike them as well). It seems to me that it would make far more sense to focus on the movers and shakers of the universe and push the bit players back as needed. Hell, we're still needing a Rebel/Cultist list, if you ask me.

There is so much I could say to debate with this post, I can't be bothered. I'll just make a few points:-

-You clearly have no idea as to what the Dark Eldar fluff actually is. Games Workshop has never done the convenience of publishing it all in one big easy to read digest, it's scattered across many sources, but it's damn interesting, and actually nothing like that.
-Labelling the wyches as bondage models when they're actually gladiators is interesting. No-one ever said they were into bondage. In no source, anywhere, is that even implied. You just came up with that one on your own. So before you start 'looking in askance', I sugggest you look somewhere closer to home.
-The Dark Eldar may not be a massive force currently, but according to the fluff, they've been multiplying in the webway, and are actually the direct descendants of the orginal Eldar race, as opposed to the Craftworld Eldar, who were radicals that 'jumped ship' along with the exodites. In this respect, they actually have a larger place in the fluff then regular Eldar. They also possibly outnumber them as well, so we should remove the entire Eldar race altogether according to your logic.

If you want to know more about the Dark Eldar background, then feel free to PM me, and I'll write up a user friendly summary taken from dozens of sources combined for you. You'll find that they do more than ' raid and rape and pillage and torture and all that because there's an evil god draining their souls'.

Ketara wrote:There is so much I could say to debate with this post, I can't be bothered. I'll just make a few points:-

Thanks. I should have been more clear--it doesn't matter what the "actuality" behind the Dark Eldar is. I'm arguing based on the "perception."

Ketara wrote:-You clearly have no idea as to what the Dark Eldar fluff actually is. Games Workshop has never done the convenience of publishing it all in one big easy to read digest, it's scattered across many sources, but it's damn interesting, and actually nothing like that.

Actually, I happen to have read everything that was published by a respectable source about the Dark Eldar (I don't really care for the BL stuff that tries to paint every group of them as some sort of Slaanesh worshippers, go figure, and I discount anything written by CS Goto). While there's plenty that can be said about the Dark Eldar being fairly complex and wonderful and so forth and so on, it really boils down to "we torture and rape and kill and do whatever we like because we're EVIL." And that's just sad, really.

Ketara wrote:-Labelling the wyches as bondage models when they're actually gladiators is interesting. No-one ever said they were into bondage. In no source, anywhere, is that even implied. You just came up with that one on your own. So before you start 'looking in askance', I sugggest you look somewhere closer to home.

Actually, I'm quoting several mothers on the Wyches. Yes, I realize where the theme is intended to come from. My point is that, from the perspective of a casual outsider, that theme fails horrendously. There are more obvious choices for bondage-inspired 40k models, for sure, but we're not talking about Sisters of Battle or the Inquisition in general right now, are we?

Ketara wrote:-The Dark Eldar may not be a massive force currently, but according to the fluff, they've been multiplying in the webway, and are actually the direct descendants of the orginal Eldar race, as opposed to the Craftworld Eldar, who were radicals that 'jumped ship' along with the exodites. In this respect, they actually have a larger place in the fluff then regular Eldar. They also possibly outnumber them as well, so we should remove the entire Eldar race altogether according to your logic.

The difference there is that, while there may be more Dark Eldar than Eldar, the Eldar actually do something. Dark Eldar raid and pillage and blah blah blah, but don't really shape the 40k universe the way that their Craftworld cousins do.

Basically, it boils down to this: Dark Eldar have massive problems portraying any sort of viable society, come off as cartoonish villains except when they're looking rather "adult" for what's arguably a kid-friendly game, and fit the archetype most likely to cause game balance issues. I'm sure a new Codex could potentially solve all of the above, but that doesn't stop me from wishing that GW would spend their time and effort on a different Codex altogether.

Your opinion, of course, will differ, but that's because you see uniqueness and awesomeness where I see the same tired cliches.

I'm indifferent about them, but if new models were released I would probably buy in. To me they're the Dogs of War for Fantasy. Yeah there is some interesting things, but a majority of it is crap.

Fair enough. I could try and sway you, but I don't know if it'd work or be worth the effort, so we'll just agree to disagree, and leave things there.

Barkdreg Badtoof wrote:there's something about them that seems to attract the "vampire" crowd (and yes, the quotation marks are very, very intentional). So they raid and rape and pillage and torture and all that because there's an evil god draining their souls, which I guess makes them attractive to both goths and emos. Random aside: is there really a difference between goths and emos? I mean, they both look the same, they both have crap taste in music, and they both are rather depressing to be around, a bit like the elderly mad.

Then there's the models. Look, I know they're old and they're dated and there's an update coming around. That said, I happen to be an adult male with a decent job and a fiancee and all that stuff that makes you feel like you're a grown up, aside from a kid (thank the Powers that May or May Not Be). It's bad enough that I play with little green men, but if we change those little green men for little S&M fetishists, then that just adds a whole new level of creepiness. I mean, my soon-to-be inlaws come over for dinner on occasion and I have models out constantly. Orks are fine--yeah, it's goofy and childish, but then again, so am I. Dark Eldar, on the other hand, just wouldn't be kosher. I mean, imagine explaining that to a group of WASPs.

The Witches are bad enough, although they just push the envelope. Then you have the Hellraiser-inspired Grotesques and the like, and finally, you run into Cruellagh. Imagine you're a suspect on an episode of SVU and Mariska Hargitay, while searching your house, comes across your Dark Eldar army. Your guilt would be proven even faster than if you asked for a lawyer, I'd bet, and even if you weren't the actual Criminal of the Week, they'd probably still bust you for kiddie porn or something like that.

Umm... I think this comes very close to Trolling

Better get him back under the bridge then.

I'm indifferent to the army.
I loathe most of the current models.
With new models (suitably eldar-looking ones. Praise be to the mighty Jes) they might attract me.

@Barkdreg tl;dr: Goths and Emos are NOT the same. There is a difference of about 20 years between them. There are similarities - but that's what happens when a 'fringe' culture goes 'mainstream', you get bleed through.
- I was a goth, when younger and not so long-in-the-tooth (there, threw in a 'vampire' reference as well).