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SilverMK2 wrote:There was an interview with a French official on the news last night, and he was commenting that it is not just the "security issue" surrounding the fact that full coverage allows potential criminals to move throughout society unseen (where a man wearing a mask would be stopped, or at least noticed), but the cultural issues as well.

Islam is Frances second largest religion, and constantly growing due to large numbers of immigrants, as well as low native birth rates. The full body and face coverings go directly against the relatively open nature of Frances culture, promoting the "us and them" mentality that causes problems.

It was suggested by this official that they were attempting not only to make the nation safer, but also to try and improve integration into French culture and promote a more open Islamic practice within the Muslim communities of France (although I think part of the issue is that there are "communities" to start with. Areas of total non-integration existing within another culture, as are common in the UK as well; part of the reason there is so much of an issue for so many people).

This is why I applaud the French government in certain respects in that they are almost 'forcing' the issue of integration with this move. I think the security concerns run a poor second to the idea that banning the burka will promote Muslims living in France to adopt a more westernised form of clothing. Surely this can only help to foster integration? I dont think anyone would suggest that it can be healthy for a group of people to emigrate to a new country yet remain entirely autonomous, cut off and independent of the prevailing culture.

Albatross wrote:I find Burkhas unpleasant mainly because they are symbol of unwillingness to integrate with a 'host' culture and/or adopt our values. Oppression of women within the Muslim community is a wider issue, which shouldn't be distilled down to a clothing choice (or lack thereof). Muslim women desperately need empowerment if the islamic community is to succesfully integrate (which they should, as a matter of grave importance). This empowerment will not be acheived by oppressing them further.

Well said sir.

I also admit to being uneasy at what the Veil represents but the very idea that you can enforce intergration by banning things is almost beyond parody. If anything it just errects yet more barriers.

I feel the same way about sombreros.

For me, integration is something that will evolve over time. 1st generation French muslim women may well feel more comfortable with a veil, and it might be handed down to the 2nd generation, but by the 3rd generation they probably start to adopt western habits. Forcing the issue is just going to create ill feeling.

My more controversial comment is that this kind of policy making, however you dress it up, has a lot to do with making people feel less intimidated by the presence of muslim immigrants. People will always be wary of new cultures that appear different to their own and legislating against clothing that is out of the ordinary will probably make a few French voters feel more comfortable.

Regardless, it's a bad idea and though such an event would be deplorable, I give Paris a year or two before the occurence of their 9/11 or 7/7 as a result.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/france-to-ban-spiderman-201001272418/


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reds8n wrote:http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/france-to-ban-spiderman-201001272418/


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Nicely satirical, somes up the daftness of it all quite well.

They're going to outlaw monks next..

... they want them to integrate more and breal their bad habits.

reds8n wrote:They're going to outlaw monks next..

... they want them to integrate more and breal their bad habits.

That was bad, and you should feel bad about it.

Ahtman wrote:I feel the same way about sombreros.

Hey! The sombrero is a symbol of mexican empowerment!


The long, droopy moustache and bandoliers are just for fun.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Muslim countries especially in arabic and african nations have gone backwards if you compare them to islam in the past.

It depends on how you define country, but many have reversed more recent secular movements or are in the process of doing so (Egypt for example). The secular reforms of the 20th century didn't work in many cases, and due to the influx of corrupt oil and drug money religious power centers are starting to take hold against the relatively weak governments. Throw in soviet wars of conquest and repeated American and western involvement in toppling and replacing governments and you have what is a ludicrously complicated set of problems in the region.

when i was talking about the past, i was talking about 100's of years, art, arcitecture, social and religious interactions and beliefs were far more 'liberal' than they are now in a large selection of muslim countries.

Ahtman wrote:I feel the same way about sombreros.

Don't dick with sombreros or we'll kick yer ass!

Flashman wrote:For me, integration is something that will evolve over time. 1st generation French muslim women may well feel more comfortable with a veil, and it might be handed down to the 2nd generation, but by the 3rd generation they probably start to adopt western habits. Forcing the issue is just going to create ill feeling.

I think the problem that may be present with this thought is that the inward looking and closed off communities are not as exposed to the influence of external culture. This means that people brought up within the community are not becoming westernised over time, or if they are, it is far more slowly than otherwise. Added to which, the fresh arrivals of "old school" non-western immigrants into those communities further limits the influx of new culture and ideas from the host nation.

I have known quite a few muslims who were westernised to one degree or another (generally it tends to be the men who are most western - possibly because they are not as tightly controlled). But some of the girls/women I have known who are fairly westernised always shy away from showing it whenever they were with family or were in muslim heavy areas. Two girls I knew relatively well would not walk alone (or in a group for that matter) with white males around areas where there were people who knew them, or otherwise muslim areas. The more conservative women did not want to have anything to do with us.

There is such a strong anti-western (not in terms of "blow them up" but more in terms of "that is not our culture and it is to be frowned upon") vibe in some areas that I doubt that they will ever become westernised. Certainly not with the factors stated above factored into the mix.

When you can go out, shop in shops with goods drawn exclusively from the middle east, walk down streets lived in exclusively by muslims, speak and be spoken to exclusively in arabic and generally not meet a "native" during your day to day activities, you are not going to be drawn into the cuture.

LuciusAR wrote:Secondly if the covering of the face for 'security' reasons is an issue then you can't just limit it to the hijab. You would have to ban anything that obscured the face. Scarves, Ski Masks, Stockings (in case Bank Robbers should use them) Bike Helmets, comedy plastic glasses/moustache combos. it's a right can of worms and again is unenforceable.

This already enforced, a shop, bank or restaurant can ban you from entering if you cover you face in such a way, and a police officer can demand you take of items that cover your face, this law is mainly to allow police officers to do their job without fear of being sued for racism.

aka_tizz wrote:

Herohammernostalgia wrote:
as for the Hungarian minority... Have they thought it through enough? do they want to isolate themselves from the rest of the country? Is it the entire minority or just a few "tribalists" with an inferiority complex?

My friend, this is on for the last hundred years or so, with the crushing majority of hungarians claiming autonomy of that region from the romanian state.

As for the burkha, i beg to differ. Who forces them to wear it in public in France? or any other western country? family? don't think so, it's not like they'd be rock killed if they, don't as is the case in some arabic countries, so why do they wear it? the only logical answer remains that it's a part of them

Do you actually read a newspaper, or watch the news, every year the police investigate multiple cases of domestic violence (even murder) performed by muslim males against their wives, daughters or relatives because they did something 'non-muslim', if you then times this by the fact that a large portion of muslim women (especially middle-eastern) cannot speak the local language, and by the institutionalised fear the amout of actual cases will be far higher.

dogma wrote:Head scarves are still illegal (the amendment lifting the ban was annulled), as are veils, but the ban only applies to government buildings, schools, and universities. It is, and was, always sparsely enforced.

I remember that now about government institutions, etc.

Still, while it may be a movement, I doubt it's taken hold in any major way in Istanbul, which has as much European vibe as it does Middle Eastern. But I can ask my friend about it.

filbert wrote:Quite possibly, however claiming that women aren't forced and coerced into wearing Burkas is disingenuous at best.

Disingenuous is a pretty big claim, it'd rely on people having a complete understanding of power relationships in Islamic communities and choosing to claim something that isn't true. I find that very unlikely. It's far more likely they don't know how it works, or know and have a different opinion to you or me.

Either way, the point here is the French law and I can't see how anyone who is genuinely interested in removing the pressure to wear a burka thinks this will do anything other than force women into the home. Instead, I think like the Swiss minaret thing, this has everything to do with being afraid of a group of people and wanting to exert some control over them to release that fear.

Many British (and i presume French) Muslim women are taken to an "uncle" and have their genitals mutilated with a razorblade.

"Female circumcision" apparently sounds nicer, but thats what it is. A disgusting vile practice.

If you think that Muslim women arent going to be forced to do anything because they happen to live in France, im sorry, but you are utterly delluding yourself.

Lets be realistic, are most Muslims like that? No.

But are there plenty of muslims who act like this?

Damn straight.

We get the whole shebang over here, "honour" killings, mutilations, torture, kidnapping, pro-jihad marching. It does occur, and i wouldnt even say its that rare considering there is something in the news every bloody week.

It annoys me that left leaning types whinge and whine about people who are right of centre pointing out the extremes (as they often do) but come on, you cant whine about them and then try to make out that all muslims are peace loving and tolerant.

gak loads of them arent.

Flashman wrote:For me, integration is something that will evolve over time. 1st generation French muslim women may well feel more comfortable with a veil, and it might be handed down to the 2nd generation, but by the 3rd generation they probably start to adopt western habits.

I'm sorry but this is an incredibly naive view and assumes the culture WANTS to integrate. Islam isn't about Integration... it's about Expansion. The hardcore Muslim doesn't want to become French, they want to turn France into an Islamic state.

How many Honor Killings have you heard about where Muslim women are killed for becoming Westernized? Too many, that's how many.


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mattyrm wrote:We get the whole shebang over here, "honour" killings, mutilations, torture, kidnapping, pro-jihad marching. It does occur, and i wouldnt even say its that rare considering there is something in the news every bloody week.

It annoys me that left leaning types whinge and whine about people who are right of centre pointing out the extremes (as they often do) but come on, you cant whine about them and then try to make out that all muslims are peace loving and tolerant.

gak loads of them arent.

Ditto in the US.

I agree entirely with you TGG. They dont WANT to fit in, they WANT to make Europe predominantly Muslim, as commanded by their 1600 year old book of desert fables and song lyrics.

And I assume you've got laws prohibiting murder? Laws against child abuse? etc.? If practices like honor killings and genital mutilation still occur in-spite of existing laws against them what's the point of banning burkhas? Do you expect this to be the final straw that will break their backs? The extremists will move out and the reasonable ones will stay and integrate peacefully? The deeper ills with that portion of Muslim society aren't caused by burkhas, so banning them will do nothing about the practices you so hate in radical Islam. Burkhas are at best a symptom of the problem and banning them will solve nothing. In fact it'll be counter productive as those women who could previously venture out into the streets and see what Western society could offer will now be locked up at home.

mattyrm wrote:I agree entirely with you TGG. They dont WANT to fit in, they WANT to make Europe predominantly Muslim, as commanded by their 1600 year old book of desert fables and song lyrics.

This would be the great Islamic hive mind, would it? The single mind with the single thought to enslave all of Europe? Dude, listen to yourself.


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mattyrm wrote:Many British (and i presume French) Muslim women are taken to an "uncle" and have their genitals mutilated with a razorblade.

And the point is that banning the burka and therefore forcing them into the home improves this situation exactly how?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Green Git wrote:I'm sorry but this is an incredibly naive view and assumes the culture WANTS to integrate. Islam isn't about Integration... it's about Expansion. The hardcore Muslim doesn't want to become French, they want to turn France into an Islamic state.

It's a very naive view to think anyone wants to integrate, and an incredibly bizarre idea to apply a human desire to a culture.

Integration happens because individuals see things in the surrounding environment that they want to do, the more they engage with the greater culture of their new home country they more they take on its practices and values. As such, laws that reduce integration with the greater population are crap laws... such as the ban on burkas.

Seb, he said "hardcore" Muslim, not average everyday muslim.

Ive got a "muslim" mate, ie. His parents try to force him to be a muslim but he went to school with us so he you know, drinks, parties, refuses to have an arranged marriage, you know, basically does what hardcore muslims dont do, enjoys his life.

People like that do integrate, people like his parents, dont. And as i was referring to them, i dont see how what i said was incorrect.

Seb, you know from my 500 posts im not a neo-con or a right-wing nut, these fethers DO exist, and you seem to be coming across as too far the other way with regards to your political leanings, as if Islam is actually the answer to all of our problems and the only reason we have an issue with it is because we are all bigtoed zealots.

The point is, sure the neo-con types demonise Islam, but your kicking the arse out of the other direction, i think Islam genuinelly is an extremely negative influence on our society.

Edit- lol, bigoted zealots, not Big-toed zealots.

sebster wrote:
And the point is that banning the burka and therefore forcing them into the home improves this situation exactly how?

I think you've hit the nail here a little bit. You're assuming integration is desired.
I'd posit a big undercurrent in regard to the legislation here is that they want them gone or at least out of the public view.

Frazzled wrote:I think you've hit the nail here a little bit. You're assuming integration is desired.
I'd posit a big undercurrent in regard to the legislation here is that they want them gone or at least out of the public view.

So it's bad that there's female circumcision and spouse abuse and that's why the burka is really wrong, but we won't worry that we're actually exacerbating the problem as long as we don't have to see a reminder that it exists. What a lovely lot we are.

For some really great articles, Google "Dearborn Michigan muslim". It is essentially the Muslim capitol of the US. If you just Google the place you get a lot general city articles and stuff on Henry Ford.

sebster wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I think you've hit the nail here a little bit. You're assuming integration is desired.
I'd posit a big undercurrent in regard to the legislation here is that they want them gone or at least out of the public view.

So it's bad that there's female circumcision and spouse abuse and that's why the burka is really wrong, but we won't worry that we're actually exacerbating the problem as long as we don't have to see a reminder that it exists. What a lovely lot we are.

What do you mean "we" partner?

Are they going to ban catholic iconography too?

Others have articulated why this law is stupid and uneeded better than I ever could.
Man. I really dislike the current French government. A lot.

aka_tizz wrote:Well, i honestly think this thing really passes the boundaries of just burkha.
On the same premise of forbidding the burkha (really unimportant at this point if the Quran asks it or not), as it's a real part of their culture, you could also ban the use of minorities' languages => you could ban the use of Spanish in America, Arabic in France, even practising your own religion as a minority in another country, what's REALLY the difference? it's still a cultural thing, isn't it?

Burkha, traditions, languages are all part of a nation and they have the right to be maintained, unless it's a threat to the safety and security of the others...meaning i agree with the fact that should be able to wear it, unless police asks them to identify

Hope i made myself clear

That is absolutely ridiculous. You are crystal clear, but sadly, I fear, utterly misguided.

To explain why, let me say that if Spanish women were forced to speak only Spanish and not learn English, and remain subservient in the home, yet Spanish men were encouraged to learn English and go out into the world, I would take strong issue with that too. I even suspect it may be possible in the US, and if I heard about a family that sent their son to school, but kept their daghter home and only let her speak Spanish, I'd take equal issue with that.

Languages, traditional dress, yes, fine, they are part of a community's culture, but when an aspect of a culture is forced upon only women, it is not an acceptable thing to do.

It is part of Western culture to bring about equality and liberty, and if we truly believe in equality and liberty for women, we have a duty to support and encourage it for all women, not just those with the same skin colour as us, or born into the same communities as us.

I was going to say, in response to some earlier posts, that no, banning the burka won't directly improve the lives of Muslim women, but that it may be a sign that it is not accepted in Western society, and may aso be helpful as leverage in preventing individual cases of mistreatment by Muslim men. I honestly believe that there may be some benefits in banning the burka as a way of making overall improvements...

But then I read the post below...

sebster wrote:The burka plays a very important role in the dress of Muslim women. Faced with either removing the burka or remaining in the home, it’s likely almost all Muslim women will remain at home. Muslim women are already marginalised by Muslim men and by greater society, and now we’ve given them one more reason to stay separate from the rest of society. In terms of encouraging integration, this new French law is nothing but a big failure.

Now that is a very strong argument indeed, and enough to make me swing towards the idea of not banning the burka. I'd much rather any women be out in public, even in a burka, than shut away indoors because either she or her husband do not want her to be seen. Maybe the burka is the lesser of two evils.

A miracle may have occurred - I believe I have just been swayed by an argument made on an internet forum.

Da Boss wrote:Are they going to ban catholic iconography too?

Others have articulated why this law is stupid and uneeded better than I ever could.
Man. I really dislike the current French government. A lot.

Again, Catholic iconography is not a method of oppressing women. Okay, Catholicism itself is not exactly an equal opportunities faith, but it is not the iconography that does the oppression. Despite me being an atheist who works in a Catholic school, one of the many issues I have with Catholicism is it institutional sexism. I don't see how Catholicism gets to be sexist "because it is traditional" whereas the police force also has a history of sexism, but has to reform... they should both have to.

Fifty wrote:

aka_tizz wrote:Well, i honestly think this thing really passes the boundaries of just burkha.
On the same premise of forbidding the burkha (really unimportant at this point if the Quran asks it or not), as it's a real part of their culture, you could also ban the use of minorities' languages => you could ban the use of Spanish in America, Arabic in France, even practising your own religion as a minority in another country, what's REALLY the difference? it's still a cultural thing, isn't it?

Burkha, traditions, languages are all part of a nation and they have the right to be maintained, unless it's a threat to the safety and security of the others...meaning i agree with the fact that should be able to wear it, unless police asks them to identify

Hope i made myself clear

That is absolutely ridiculous. You are crystal clear, but sadly, I fear, utterly misguided.

To explain why, let me say that if Spanish women were forced to speak only Spanish and not learn English, and remain subservient in the home, yet Spanish men were encouraged to learn English and go out into the world, I would take strong issue with that too. I even suspect it may be possible in the US, and if I heard about a family that sent their son to school, but kept their daghter home and only let her speak Spanish, I'd take equal issue with that.

Languages, traditional dress, yes, fine, they are part of a community's culture, but when an aspect of a culture is forced upon only women, it is not an acceptable thing to do.

It is part of Western culture to bring about equality and liberty, and if we truly believe in equality and liberty for women, we have a duty to support and encourage it for all women, not just those with the same skin colour as us, or born into the same communities as us.

[color=red][b]I was going to say, in response to some earlier posts, that no, banning the burka won't directly improve the lives of Muslim women, but that it may be a sign that it is not accepted in Western society, and may aso be helpful as leverage in preventing individual cases of mistreatment by Muslim men. I honestly believe that there may be some benefits in banning the burka as a way of making overall improvements...

No, it seems i haven't made myself clear. i have NOTHING against burkha or women...i do STRONGLY disagree with it being enforced onto them...as i do enforcing ANYTHING onto women...i would have said exactly the same if men were required to wear it or stay indoors. i'm not sexist and i do believe in equality of sexes (most of it at least)
To go even further, i must say, though i do not fully agree with it, i support banning the burkha (in public spaces => malls, streets, places with monitoring cameras, etc.) FOR THE PURPOSE OF PUBLIC SECURITY. it's exactly the same thing with banning the hoodies or any other means of face-obscuring in this matter
i totally disagree with it being banned JUST BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT WANTS SO.

Oh, and i never said anything about banning the speak of spanish in america FOR WOMEN. i was talking about both sexes

That's an issue where I'm from. Banks ban face masks and ski masks inside due to security reasons but a woman can wear her burkha into a bank to make a transaction.

Policy should be the same everywhere. I realize it's not but it should be the same for everyone. Especially regarding policies involving Federal institutions.