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Im okay with proxying weapons on a model. (Ie the gun/power weapon on your commander)

Models are expensive, if it just so happens you glued and painted it when using another list then I dont expect you to go buy another one just to satisfy WYSIWYG.

However proxying models I dont like, especially obvious models.

Although I will allow it on the eve of tournaments and friends are just wanting to test out a 'unit' to see if they will be useful or worth buying.

I have a different situation as far as base sizes go.

For the skaven hell pit abomination. There is no GW model for it, so im electing to sculpt my own. The thing is pretty huge (as i envisioned it). In the skaven book it doesnt give a base size, however in the errata/FAQ they "recommend" a 60x100mm base. They did mention that as long as it wasnt to outlandish deviating on this was ok.

I put it on a 80x120mm base because that is what it would fit on. I havent found a friendly that has an issue with this, but am wondering if TO's would.

A bigger base can make it more vulnerable, because its easier to scatter on it or hit its base. You can also get more model into base contact to attack it. The other end of this is it gets to attack all models in base contact, so it gets a few more hits.

That's a toughie. Particularly since the Abomb is such a nasty model, that opponents are more likely to be unhappy with it. The size you've given seems pretty reasonable. If I were running one I'd probably try my damnedest to use the recommended size, to minimize the chance of objections.

Mannahnin wrote:That's a toughie. Particularly since the Abomb is such a nasty model, that opponents are more likely to be unhappy with it. The size you've given seems pretty reasonable. If I were running one I'd probably try my damnedest to use the recommended size, to minimize the chance of objections.

It is nice to have something that at least has the whiff of officialdom to it...

Give him a titan base! woo hoo!

ShivanAngel wrote:I have a different situation as far as base sizes go.

For the skaven hell pit abomination. There is no GW model for it, so im electing to sculpt my own. The thing is pretty huge (as i envisioned it). In the skaven book it doesnt give a base size, however in the errata/FAQ they "recommend" a 60x100mm base. They did mention that as long as it wasnt to outlandish deviating on this was ok.

I put it on a 80x120mm base because that is what it would fit on. I havent found a friendly that has an issue with this, but am wondering if TO's would.

A bigger base can make it more vulnerable, because its easier to scatter on it or hit its base. You can also get more model into base contact to attack it. The other end of this is it gets to attack all models in base contact, so it gets a few more hits.

Popular based at the North East GT scene for an adomination is a chariot base. Chariot bases seem fair, and are 50x100 if memory serves me correctly. My abomination is on the Chariot base, and a buddies from another club are also. 60x100 in the FAQ recommendation is also more than enough. Once you get up to 80-120mm, wow, that's pretty big. Is a TO going to complain? Likely not. Is your opponent going to ask you about it, likely so.

Problem is the Abom is an awesome model, along with its roll and move, its has incredible abilities that are game changing. If rumors turn to reality (grain of salt here) and true line of sight happens in fantasy, you will have a lot of complaints. You could basically use your abomination to block line of sight to almost a unit and a half of clanrats and block and entire plague furnace. A bigger base cannot make it more vulnerable, as the abmonination does not scatter. It directs its movement.

Bottom line: as a skaven player myself, if you have sculpted it, and it looks A-right, i'd smile and given you props. But if you plop it down, and it looks like you sculpted it to block los. I'd get an organize to make a call OR just ask you to use a chariot base for representation in game. Ironically yes, I always have a spare 50mm, and chariot base. I've offered thse to my opponent when they have awesome models and I am nervous about paint/ bumping a model when it gets close to a table edge.

Regarding WYSIWYG: My armies are always WYSIWYG. But do I expect my opponent to? Not really. If they have a clear easy to read army roster, and I have it in my hand and know what the models are, I do not really care. If there is a minor concern (vehicle that has different sponsors) but its on the roster. i'm still good.

When all of my forces are WYSIWYG I expect my opponent to do the same.

MVBrandt wrote:
WYSIWYG is almost never required, anywhere.

You know, except in the rules.

Codex Space Marines, page 127: "Any upgrades that are taken must be shown on the model."
Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 89: "Any upgrades that are taken must be shown on the model."
Codex Eldar, page 59: "Remember that you cannot field models that are equipped with weapons or wargear not shown on the model."
Codex Orks, page 94: "Any upgrades that are taken must be shown on the model if possible."

In the world of modern 40k, where you give your opponent the army list ... it's more about having a painted army, than it is making sure those veterans have lasguns or shotguns modeled on them, or making sure all of your combi-weapons are perfectly modeled.

Puritanical opponents and jackasses are exceptions to the rule, and certainly not ones to be reinforced.

Why is it that you feel the need to insult and act condescending towards other players who want to play the game by the rules? I'm seeing this in more and more threads. It comes across as If my opponent doesn't opt to ignore the same rules I think should be ignored, he's "TFG" or "WAAC" or whatever other label you chose to apply.

In practice, I've never had a problem letting other people proxy models, or use weapons that weren't on their models, especially not in friendly games. But in a tournament setting (that is the forum we're reading), if the tournament rules call for WYSIWYG, then isn't the player who knowingly violates these rules the one exhibiting poor behaviour, not the opponent who asks that the stated rules be enforced?

Is it okay to use raptors as assault marines? They've got the same stuff,so...

They're a little evil looking, but hey maybe your chapter rolls that way.

Redbeard wrote:Why is it that you feel the need to insult and act condescending towards other players who want to play the game by the rules? I'm seeing this in more and more threads. It comes across as If my opponent doesn't opt to ignore the same rules I think should be ignored, he's "TFG" or "WAAC" or whatever other label you chose to apply.

It's been going on as long as there have been gaming forums on the internet...At least as long as I've been hanging out. Warseer is notorious for that style of 'argument'. You're seeing it more now on Dakka because before people who made those sort of 'arguments' got heckled and piled on by the regular posters.

Typically when I see those sort of comments (You're a bad person if you don't play the way I want to) then I report it as the personal attack and bullying that it is.

A tournament is a different environment to playing with friends at a local club. If the Tourney has a WYSIWYG rule then that's their entitlement and players should stick to that.

I like to see WYSIWYG, including on my own models, but as someone mentioned above, models are expensive and you can't build every option. Plus some things are so similar. If playing a casual game and someone started arguing over something trivial I'd pack up and play someone else. I'm not in the hobby for that.

But certainly tell your opponent what you are playing, even give them a copy of your list or leave it where you can both see it (that's what I do).

I think the following is perfectly acceptable though;

Ork Boyz as 'Ard Boyz
regular Space Marines as Space Wolf Blood Claws/Grey Wolves
same model can be used for either Ork Weirdboy or Old Zogswort
Shoota/Blasta/Slugga/Big Shoota - any could be a Kustom Mega-Blasta (it's Kustom Ork tech!)
Sluggas as Shootas (but have to be some marking if unit has mixed guns)

Ugavine wrote:
Ork Boyz as 'Ard Boyz
regular Space Marines as Space Wolf Blood Claws/Grey Wolves
same model can be used for either Ork Weirdboy or Old Zogswort
Shoota/Blasta/Slugga/Big Shoota - any could be a Kustom Mega-Blasta (it's Kustom Ork tech!)
Sluggas as Shootas (but have to be some marking if unit has mixed guns)

Ork boyz as 'ard boyz is unacceptable. Armor save is very relevant and there is a distinct difference between +6 and +4. And it is not like you can say 'all boyz are 'ard as it is not an option. Maybe Scouts can be terminators? Model your 'ardboyz.

Saying any random gun is a KMB is also unacceptable. BIG SHOOTAS are standardized as much as other weapons are for other armies. It is not appropriate to model a KAN or a Kopter with a Big shoota and call it 'either'. Snazzguns are different, but a Snazzgun is tied to a very specific model type who cannot have a KMB or Big Shoota. And that model would need both a Nob 2-wound build as well as 'eavy armor to make him WYSIWYG. Remember, KMBs are basically plasmaguns... So unless you can call a heavy bolter a Plasmacannon, you can't call a Big shoota a KMB.

Sluggas and Shootas need to be WYSIWYG. They are the core of every ork army and hardly ever is someone using ONLY sluggas or ONLY shootas so saying 'all boyz are shootas' doesn't cut it. No markings... no post-it notes. These units need to be correct for consistency. Combine with your 'ard boy policy, you have just made your ork army unplayable. You Are now attempting to have AoBR orks 'proxy' as shoota boyz and 'ard boyz with no attempt to model except for some supposed markings and a spit-handshake that everything is what you says it is.

Orks as an army are already very hard for opponents to distinguish units from each other. If anything it is one of the more important armies that needs to be 100% WYSIWYG in order to be playable. And since ork boyz are numerous and we have so many modeling advantages from our bitz box, it is easier than any army to just pick up some discount AoBR toroso and attach every extra gun we get to a torso so we can actually model EVERY weapon option from our boxes. Our models are inexpensive and we CAN build every option.

I think the following is perfectly acceptable though;

Ork Boyz as 'Ard Boyz
regular Space Marines as Space Wolf Blood Claws/Grey Wolves
same model can be used for either Ork Weirdboy or Old Zogswort
Shoota/Blasta/Slugga/Big Shoota - any could be a Kustom Mega-Blasta (it's Kustom Ork tech!)
Sluggas as Shootas (but have to be some marking if unit has mixed guns)

No. All this means is people would sink to the lowest common denominator.

Black reach boyz as 'ardboyz, Why model it?
Who cares what color/models your SM has? Play any chapter you want.
If it's a special character, do something to let your opponent know.
And all the lazy people will use big shooters from black reach
And everyone would use black reach sluggas for shooters.

This would make for a very confusing army.

I don't like the 'missile launcher counts as lascannon' aproach personally, but minor things like if your Guard squad has the frag grenades or not I wouldn't worry about. We don't really want to be magnetizing grenades for the sake of WYSIWYG, and I wouldn't want to have to add or remove between games for something so little and trivial. The main weapon, I prefer to be represented... but there are plenty of upgrades that can be left ambiguous without being annoyingly distracting to remember. A heavy bolter is one thing, a suit of artificer armor is a little more vague. And a Swooping Hawk exarch's sunrifle or talon looks no different from his lasblaster last I checked...

so there will always be little details that simply cannot be modelled without a lot of hassle. Let those slide.

Saying that your vehicle is actually a different one is pretty bogus in my opinion because of TLOS and the fact that every vehicle has a specifically designed size and dimensions that do make a difference (like sponsons, hatches, etc)

Still we play the games we can get, and yeah I've played against SW made of legs on bases with no idea where the melta gun is he just marked it on the base with a pencil, just because I wanted to play and that was the only guy left without an opponent (for obvious reasons).

I look at it like Magic Card proxies... is it done? yes. Is it accepted? Grudgingly... Is it legal... NO.. but people let it slide on minor details. Magic players don't demand that everyone use mint condition cards either (to make sure the frayed corner doesn't give you unfair advantage knowing where it is in the deck for instance) They just want the card to be what it is for visual recognition purposes.

There's already so much to keep track of in this game and I consider it inconsiderate to my opponent to proxy things. He already has enough to worry about and keep track of.

When I play it's always WYSIWYG. It may not all be painted, and I'm doing some serious over the top converting to my Tzeentch themed soul grinder(Gave it a rail gun, skyray missle racks ect) But it doesn't cahnge the rules just looks more chaosy.

Until I mod my hormogaunts they are nekkid, I do like the Idea of the toxin sac between the legs though...

I have a couple questions regarding WYSIWYG, that I haven't seen covered (or answered) here, and making a new thread seems like making a mess of the place, so I'll just post it here. Pretty new to 40k, been modeling/painting my orks (VERY casually) for a little over a year, and have really only played house games with a group of friends, but most of us are getting our armies modeled/painted in enough numbers, and getting familiar enough with the rules that we should be ready to play somewhere soon, and none of us want to be TFGs. Onto the questions...


Red Paint Job. Does the whole model have to be red ? what about just a spot of red anywhere ? shades of red ? ? Technically, orange (part of my color scheme) is a product of red, so should that count for RPJ ?

What about things that are modeled onto a piece, that you DON'T want to use ? Such as, the Trukk I have is equipped with a boarding plank, quite honestly because it looks silly without it, there just a gaping hole on the side of the trukk that doesn't make sense. Since its on the model, do I have to use it ?




Now, obviously I'm not asking you guys, how the people at our local store play, or how tourneys around my area are played. Really just curious how you most commonly see issues like these resolved, so we can go as prepared as possible. Ty!

I think it has to red on it somewhere.

As for extra stuff I do not think they have to count. As they could just be for design.

Disarray wrote:Red Paint Job. Does the whole model have to be red ? what about just a spot of red anywhere ? shades of red ? ? Technically, orange (part of my color scheme) is a product of red, so should that count for RPJ ?

The whole model doesn't have to be red, but it should be obvious.

You'll find as well that it's not uncommon for people to substitute another colour where it better fits their colour scheme. The key is just to make sure that your vehicles with the upgrade are clearly distinguishable from those without.

What about things that are modeled onto a piece, that you DON'T want to use ?

What your opponent sees on the table should be representative of what you are using. That's what WYSIWYG means.

I have to disagree about the ork list being easy to make WYSIWYG with little to no money. I am working on 2 different armies (Orks and Wolves). For my normal game sizes and play style both my list are pretty much spot on for WYSIWYG.

Now, my squads are color coded and I try not to do any crazy proxies/count's as. For me, I don't own enough lootas to run my ard boyz list. I am not using burna's for ard boyz, so I am using them and the default "meks" you get in the boxes to fill out the units. and I normally don't run very many shoota boyz. I am using some dual pistol and dual "odd shooty weapon" boyz to "count as" shootas to fill out the the last 14 models for the 2 units(I have some of them using storm bolters and other marine shooters). I am in the process of painting my orks to table quality, but I have painted rings on the bases to color code the squad.

I think all in all I have 14 odd shoota boyz and 10ish proxy lootas. Not bad out of 140 boyz models.

BossDakka wrote:I have to disagree about the ork list being easy to make WYSIWYG with little to no money. I am working on 2 different armies (Orks and Wolves). For my normal game sizes and play style both my list are pretty much spot on for WYSIWYG.

Now, my squads are color coded and I try not to do any crazy proxies/count's as. For me, I don't own enough lootas to run my ard boyz list. I am not using burna's for ard boyz, so I am using them and the default "meks" you get in the boxes to fill out the units. and I normally don't run very many shoota boyz. I am using some dual pistol and dual "odd shooty weapon" boyz to "count as" shootas to fill out the the last 14 models for the 2 units(I have some of them using storm bolters and other marine shooters). I am in the process of painting my orks to table quality, but I have painted rings on the bases to color code the squad.

I think all in all I have 14 odd shoota boyz and 10ish proxy lootas. Not bad out of 140 boyz models.

Lootas/burnas is one of the boxes where we really make our money back because you can buy AoBR boyz for DIRT CHEAP from bitzsellers and ebay and cut off the arms and then combine the torsos with the pretty reasonable loota/burna box and get: 4 Burnas, 4 Lootaz, 1 Big Shoota boy, 1 Rokkit Boy, 1 KMB mek out of the box.

Same can be done with Shootas. You can buy a Box of the dual/armed orks and some AoBR and get a full set of Sluggas and shootas out of every box. Also, every swap meet I have ever been to has BAGS of ork arms from the days of 3rd edition and usually that bag is filled with shoota arms. Get some shoota arms, AoBR bodies and you can crank out dozens of shoot aboyz for dirt cheap. You can find them everywhere.

Also, if you keep an eye out, you can often find lots of extra ork torsos, like BW gunners and fantasy orks that are all over the place to attach arms to to maximize bit usage out of every box.

Dual Pistols should be slugga boyz if anything... Because a dual pistol model has 2 CCW and can only shoot 1 gun at a time. Much closer to slugga boyz than shoota boyz and less confusing.

We get away with maximizing our boxed sets due to the way our whole army is based on the single wound boy torso and how modular our orks have been for over 10 years. When the kits give you dozens of extra arms, and AoBR boyz are cheap and plentiful... you can make WYSIWYG easy and cheap.

Red Paint Job: There should be 'something' to distinguish it. If you are BAD MOONZ and you paint black flames... then *ALL* black flames should be Red paint job, and things without black flames are 'not' red paint job. I have blue armor with red/yellow flames. If it has flames, it is redpaint job. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Don;t say something is redpaint then say 'these 3 with the flames as well but they don't have RPJ.

Overmodeling: Overmodeling is a form of proxying. If I see a wrecker and a boarding plank, I will expect it. Usually people accept it if you say 'none of my vehicles anywhere have these upgrades. If you mix and match, you in trouble. The goal should be to learn to use magnets and make upgrades removable to meet WYSIWYG. It is worth the effort.

Let me understand. Is it alright to not have certain, everyday wargear not modeled on the unit? Such as every IG vehicle has smoke launchers and a searchlight. Can I have some modeled without and that be ok? Every Marine comes with frag grenades. Do I need to model all of them with grenades now? or is it alright to not have the grenades on them?

I understand the importance of having a lascannon razorback have the lascannons and not heavy bolters that are called lascannons, but what about the common wargear that is not bought, but allowed by the codex for every unit or model for free? Is the rule that if you pay for it it must be modeled?

Hmmm, calling someone on the difference between ard boyz and regular boyz? thats not that easy to make obvious, and is going way to far. most of the ork models have a decent amount of armor bits anyway and with the power of mork and gork can easilly turn into a 4+ armor save on any given day.

what is important is making it so that your opponent can differentiate which units are which. and that your straightforward in telling him what they all have.

but overall the units should be mostly what they are intended to be with any additions, figs that easilly fit in.

i have no problem if a few orks in the shoota mob are sluggas, Fantasy had a nice rule where half the unit had to have the proper weapons and kit. in 40k things like special weapons should be distinct and the modeling make sense so your opponent doesnt get surprised by a bolter marine suddenly popping out and lasering a tank from 40 inches away.

Hacksaaw wrote:Hmmm, calling someone on the difference between ard boyz and regular boyz? thats not that easy to make obvious, and is going way to far. most of the ork models have a decent amount of armor bits anyway and with the power of mork and gork can easilly turn into a 4+ armor save on any given day.

Sorry. 'ardboyz have official models. It is easy to make obvious. There is a signifigant difference from a 6+ boy and 4+ boy. AoBR boyz have very insignifigant amount of armor nothing makes them 4+.

We only have 2 types of weapons and two types of armor. And all the boyz are usefull and easy to make. There is no valid excuse for expecting proxies for the most common unit in the ork army as all the excuses for why not having them (all my boyz are the same, I only use one type of weapon, I only use one type of armor) don't work as no ork player will take all one weapon or one armor especially when 'ard boyz are 0-1.

Trying to tell people to 'the red ones are 'ard boyz and the blue ones are shootas' why not use tiddlywinks? why bother even having models? Let's just play 40k with checkers.

DarthDiggler wrote:Let me understand. Is it alright to not have certain, everyday wargear not modeled on the unit? Such as every IG vehicle has smoke launchers and a searchlight. Can I have some modeled without and that be ok? Every Marine comes with frag grenades. Do I need to model all of them with grenades now? or is it alright to not have the grenades on them?

I understand the importance of having a lascannon razorback have the lascannons and not heavy bolters that are called lascannons, but what about the common wargear that is not bought, but allowed by the codex for every unit or model for free? Is the rule that if you pay for it it must be modeled?

Between Adpeticon, 'Ard Boyz, and numerous local tournaments, I've never had anyone question my Chimeras lack of smoke launchers or my complete lack of grenades on my figures. Mandatory equipment seems to be mostly considered unnecessary to model, though you never know what some of the more, shall we say, "competitive" players might bust out on you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Concerning the Ork Boyz/ 'ard Boyz discussion, how do you feel about Carapace armor for CCS/Vet squads? There is no real carapace armor model, unless you pick up Kasrkins, Stormtroopers, or Valk boxes and use the heavy bolter gunner bodies. Kasrkins aren't really suitable for Vets, as their lasguns look more like what I'd call hellguns or hot-shots, Stormtroopers are stormtroopers, and The gunners are static one-piece torso/legs without variation, infantry arms don't fit perfectly on them, and not to mention that you have to buy a Valk kit to get two.

Well if someone is gonna cry that 6 boyz outta of a 25 man squad are not WYSIWYG, they can Zog Off! I refuse to proxy entire squads. Its a partial fill to expand a unit to a larger size for the points costs. And I used my prize support from the first round to actually drop the proxy count down. None of my opponents seemed to have an issue with the modelling.

My Wolf army is completely WYSIWYG, to the point of making combi-meltas for the units that have them.

As for the tiddlywink comment, the color codes are more for the mass combats. When you have 50 orks in a pile on some poor suckers deployment area, its nice to be able to pick up the right models.

BossDakka wrote:Well if someone is gonna cry that 6 boyz outta of a 25 man squad are not WYSIWYG, they can Zog Off! I refuse to proxy entire squads. Its a partial fill to expand a unit to a larger size for the points costs. And I used my prize support from the first round to actually drop the proxy count down. None of my opponents seemed to have an issue with the modelling.

If you are talking about 'ard boyz, you broke the rules of the tournament, burdened your opponent with unauthorized proxies and do not deserve to win the prize.

Next time, Fix your proxies with your own money before you show up to an event where you explicitly do not intend to follow the rules and burden your opponent.

If you played where I played, you would have been disqualified... or at least have those proxy models come down with instant death upon beginning of the game. Rules is rules and you broke them.

nkelsch wrote:

Hacksaaw wrote:Hmmm, calling someone on the difference between ard boyz and regular boyz? thats not that easy to make obvious, and is going way to far. most of the ork models have a decent amount of armor bits anyway and with the power of mork and gork can easilly turn into a 4+ armor save on any given day.

Sorry. 'ardboyz have official models. It is easy to make obvious. There is a signifigant difference from a 6+ boy and 4+ boy. AoBR boyz have very insignifigant amount of armor nothing makes them 4+.

Respectfully disagree.

nkelsch wrote:

BossDakka wrote:Well if someone is gonna cry that 6 boyz outta of a 25 man squad are not WYSIWYG, they can Zog Off! I refuse to proxy entire squads. Its a partial fill to expand a unit to a larger size for the points costs. And I used my prize support from the first round to actually drop the proxy count down. None of my opponents seemed to have an issue with the modelling.

If you are talking about 'ard boyz, you broke the rules of the tournament, burdened your opponent with unauthorized proxies and do not deserve to win the prize.

Next time, Fix your proxies with your own money before you show up to an event where you explicitly do not intend to follow the rules and burden your opponent.

If you played where I played, you would have been disqualified... or at least have those proxy models come down with instant death upon beginning of the game. Rules is rules and you broke them.

I'm torn here. On one hand, rules are rules and a few pieces of greenstuf/plasticard makes perfectly reasonable "ard Boyz", but on the other hand, I see no possible way that 6 regulars in a mob of 25 could cause confusion especially since there's no legal way I'm aware of to have a "split squad" like that. Chances are you'd not even notice that those 6 have less armor on them. I know I never can tell the difference when I'm fighting Orks. Of course, at the 'ard Boyz I went to, I dealt with a player who gave me the typcial "oh, ignore those hunter killer missiles... oh, and this set of missile launchers is actually lascannons." I've seen his list, I have a pencil, and I've written "missle launchers -> lascannons" on it next to the unit that isn't accurate along with "!H-K Missiles" by the Rhinos.
If I can't overcome any confusion I suffer from WYSIWYG and win anyway, I feel it's my fault and I need to improve my game. I'd probably play against someone who had an army made of differently colored bottlecaps if I ran into one. I think is bad form to deny someone the game just because they didn't have time to get 20% of a squad of Orks up to "code". Having that been said, my stuff was all WYSIWYG up to a point. Anything I pay for and the default weapon are modelled. My vets look different from my Infantry. My CCS had carapace armor from my Valkyries. If you tell me I need grenades on my guardsmen, I'm rolling my eyes at you. If you try to get me disqualified over it, we're going to have words.

whitedragon wrote:

Respectfully disagree.

Then my scouts can be terminators or space marines because weapons and armor no longer matter, even if GW makes models for them.

Or is the line, "Everything should be WYSIWYG, unless I personally don't feel like it for my models..."

'ard boyz exist. 4+ ork armor exists. AoBR do not have 4+ armor and cannot in any capacity be used as 4+ armor without PROXYING. And if Proxies are not allowed, neither are AoBR being 'ard boyz.