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WYIWYG is not really that hard, but it is important IMO. Even in friendly games, it's a little annoying keeping track of who has a powerfist or plasma gun, which Razorback actually has the lascannon instead of the heavy bolters, and so on. I realize that it's hard modeling options, even with magnets, but some effort should be made. For example, on ork trukks, since they have a gunner on the big shoota, it makes it hard to take a rokkit option without completely changing the model. What I did was add a magnetized slot where I could slap a rokkit launcher on so that it's clear I have the RL option and won't be using the big shoota, even though it's modeled onto the trukk. It's easy and visually represented (and easy to remove if I just want the big shoota trukk).

The trickier situations, IMO, are when "official" models don't exist (*cough*stormraven*cough*) and you have to grant leeway on the scratch-built stuff.

What do y'all think of using square bases in 40k?

I don't really see a difference, or impact on gaming.

None of my opponents care in terms of weapons. They know as well as I do that the Chaos Space marine set only comes with 1melta,1plasma and 1flamer. Therefore, I use the melta and the plasma as meltas, and they never care,so whatever.

I use terminators as obliterators, and I use a vindicator as a rhino.

That's the extent of my proxying, just because I don't have everything I need yet.

Although, I really do get pissed off when people use a ripper swarm as terminators and wraithlords as dreadnoughts,to name a few. My friend plays SoB and 100% of his army is proxies. Die in a fire IG,nids and orks as SoB....

Samus_aran115 wrote:None of my opponents care in terms of weapons. They know as well as I do that the Chaos Space marine set only comes with 1melta,1plasma and 1flamer. Therefore, I use the melta and the plasma as meltas, and they never care,so whatever.

I use terminators as obliterators, and I use a vindicator as a rhino.

That's the extent of my proxying, just because I don't have everything I need yet.

Although, I really do get pissed off when people use a ripper swarm as terminators and wraithlords as dreadnoughts,to name a few. My friend plays SoB and 100% of his army is proxies. Die in a fire IG,nids and orks as SoB....

I'm confused - you're fine with Terminators as Oblits, but object to Wraithlords as Dreads? Why?

Honestly, I'm often happier with proxies from outside the army being played - less change of confusion, as a Wraithlord isn't ever part of a (C)SM army, but a Terminator could be.

Ugh. I may sound a bit like a hipster here, but I wouldn't play against a 100% proxy army. The very thought makes my soul hurt.

I think providing a list and being very open to pointing out weapons/wargear/etc. at any point in a game goes a long way to alleviating troubles. Still, I played a guy in my previous tournament using the new Blood Angels codex, and started the DoW setup-batlle with just three basic rhinos out. He gave me a copy of his list (which I feel could have benefited from being more detailed), and I skimmed it but just kept an eye on the units on the table. Then two rhinos hit me with their assault cannons (they were predators it seems), and the third I realized was a vindicator! I suppose I am to blame for not really reading his list thoroughly, but it's that disconnect in units that kept throwing me off.

Now, I think my case is pretty extreme in terms of bad WYSIWYG (the other tourney players were joking about the guy's army while we played-- "What? What do you mean you can't see the Sanguinary priest? He's right there! That guy! With the Chainsword and bolt pistol! Who looks like all the other guys!"). So I'm in agreement with most of the folks on here about keeping things as close to WYSIWYG and not making huge changes from a unit's visible appearance. But with well converted/slightly ambiguous models (massive chainswords, spiky power fist/claws), I think that leeway can be provided especially if your opponent is forthcoming about what any discrepancies are.

You cannot deploy a vindicator on the table during dawn of war, I dont think baal preds can go out, as scouts doesnt let you do that, only infiltrate. Sounds like you got outright cheated.

Janthkin wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:None of my opponents care in terms of weapons. They know as well as I do that the Chaos Space marine set only comes with 1melta,1plasma and 1flamer. Therefore, I use the melta and the plasma as meltas, and they never care,so whatever.

I use terminators as obliterators, and I use a vindicator as a rhino.

That's the extent of my proxying, just because I don't have everything I need yet.

Although, I really do get pissed off when people use a ripper swarm as terminators and wraithlords as dreadnoughts,to name a few. My friend plays SoB and 100% of his army is proxies. Die in a fire IG,nids and orks as SoB....

I'm confused - you're fine with Terminators as Oblits, but object to Wraithlords as Dreads? Why?

Honestly, I'm often happier with proxies from outside the army being played - less change of confusion, as a Wraithlord isn't ever part of a (C)SM army, but a Terminator could be.

I see your point. The thing is, my termies have green stuff on them to look like obliterators, and I threw a bunch of weapons on them. They might as well be obliterators at that point.

That's true. I'd rather see sanguinary guard as raptors than rhinos as predators...

I have a question about nid hormagaunts. in the old codex and old model kits, you could upgrade units with toxin sacs and there were bits in the kit for modelling them. In the new hormagaunt kit (now separating the two gaunt types) there are no longer any toxin sacs parts in the kit.

So with the new codex, if you have a unit of hormagaunts and upgrade them with toxin sacs, do you have to model it for WYSIWYG when GW has decided that it is no longer necessary to include these parts?

Ventus wrote:So with the new codex, if you have a unit of hormagaunts and upgrade them with toxin sacs, do you have to model it for WYSIWYG when GW has decided that it is no longer necessary to include these parts?

You should, yes. Just as you should model plasma guns on Cadians, despite GW not including those in the box either.

But as usual, whether or not it is enforced is up to your opponent and/or the event rules.

WYSIWYG can always be fun too. I am going to paint radiation warning labels on some tiny pink flamingos for bigombs on my deffcoptas. My opinion is that as long as what you say it is stays uniform across your whole army your fine. Especially in cases where GW doesn't even make the model.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:None of my opponents care in terms of weapons. They know as well as I do that the Chaos Space marine set only comes with 1melta,1plasma and 1flamer. Therefore, I use the melta and the plasma as meltas, and they never care,so whatever.

I use terminators as obliterators, and I use a vindicator as a rhino.

That's the extent of my proxying, just because I don't have everything I need yet.

Although, I really do get pissed off when people use a ripper swarm as terminators and wraithlords as dreadnoughts,to name a few. My friend plays SoB and 100% of his army is proxies. Die in a fire IG,nids and orks as SoB....

I'm confused - you're fine with Terminators as Oblits, but object to Wraithlords as Dreads? Why?

Honestly, I'm often happier with proxies from outside the army being played - less change of confusion, as a Wraithlord isn't ever part of a (C)SM army, but a Terminator could be.

I see your point. The thing is, my termies have green stuff on them to look like obliterators, and I threw a bunch of weapons on them. They might as well be obliterators at that point.

That's true. I'd rather see sanguinary guard as raptors than rhinos as predators...

There is a huge difference between conversions and proxies.

If your converted terminators look like obliterators and can not be mistaken for terminators then it's a legitimate conversion, not a proxy. If you do the conversion right they might even look better than normal obliterators, if you do it poorly it will resemble little more than a glob of greenstuff and heavy weapons that looks like a great unclean one just took a dump on an obliterator.

I used converted Khorne Berzerkers as Sanguinary Guard today. They had space marine jump packs added, plastic wings from the tyranid gargoyle kit, swords and arms from a kit of khorne bloodletter deamons with Khorne Zerker shoulderpads over them, actual angelis bolters mounted on their jump packs, the faces of bloodletters placed over the face of my zerkers, and blood letter tounges sticking out of thier mask licking their hell blades/glaive encarmine, and I got nothing but complements on the unit today.

The only conversion in my army that anybody complained about was that I placed heads from WFB chaos warriors and khorne berzerkers on scout bikers, but upon taking a closer look at the model they would quickly recognize it as a scout biker.

Ventus wrote:I have a question about nid hormagaunts. in the old codex and old model kits, you could upgrade units with toxin sacs and there were bits in the kit for modelling them. In the new hormagaunt kit (now separating the two gaunt types) there are no longer any toxin sacs parts in the kit.

So with the new codex, if you have a unit of hormagaunts and upgrade them with toxin sacs, do you have to model it for WYSIWYG when GW has decided that it is no longer necessary to include these parts?

Take 2 pieces of green stuff, roll them into balls, and stick them between your hormaguants rear legs. Instant toxin sacs.

schadenfreude wrote:
Take 2 pieces of green stuff, roll them into balls, and stick them between your hormaguants rear legs. Instant toxin sacs.

they may be sacs but i don't think they're filled with toxin if you put them there.

My one army is a "Counts As" SM force. The Models are old Squats. I use the exo armors as Command (converted) and Honor guard, all with artificer armor.
Converting one to be a MoF with hand made C-beamer.
I use old Battletech weapons and arms for converting combi weapons, Jaegermech arms for combi meltas, marauder arms for combi plasma.
Planning on posting a list with pics soonish.

let me ask you guys a question. I have tried very ahrd to make my models WYSIWYG for Ard' boyz. i made sure everything was exactly as the list said. I have all the exact correct models for everything. Now, the feller i play against yersterday plops his "blood angels" down on the board, and hands me his list.. their god damn space wolves with about 28 missle launchers glued here or there (on space hulk termies no less) and the Space hulk Librarian midel as Logan grimnar(sp) Should this of been allowed? Now yes i got my ass handed to me and there was alot of stuff i question as far as his measureing for frag grenades and whatnot, but i let it go as i just wanted to have fun. BUT it just burns my ass i spent all this money on my army to ensure it to be 100% WYSIYG and some power playing asshat plops 4 pounds of elmers glue on some models to make them Vampire space werewolves. IMO it dosen't seem right.


On a side note, said same player is here on dakka and yes buddy i am quiet sure you will read this post and not to concerned with your replies or thoughts. Other then that grats to all those Other people whom won yesterday.

The TO is ultimately the one who makes the call. If you question someone's army, then bring it to the attention of the TO. From my experience, TO's aren't walking around looking to see if things are WYSIWYG, but are willing to abide by the rules packet if the issue is brought up to them by players.

Personally, I wouldn't field something like that, but Ard Boyz tends to bring out some things like you've described.

Eh, the feller manning the store yesterday was to busy playing on his pc, while Mr i play vampire space werewolves was trying to rules lawyer everyone else while they were playing. Overall it was fun due to the large group of my own friends there. I will not be going back to that store as it was extremely over cliquey. and The Staff could really care less about what was going on. It really is sad as it is a beautiful and one of the biggest stores in the state. But i guess that is what gaming clubs and friends are for right?

That, or ask the TO for a ruling.

The problem that can really be a pain is minis where the stats and WYSIWYG don't always work. I've had plenty of times where there simply wasn't a place to glue grenades, for example, on an individual mini. Most of the unit clearly had them, but one or two men could not fit them. Or some units where the rules have changed since the minis were designed (a problem for SM in particular, since most of them were sculpted quite a while ago). Do we alter the mini, only to have to re-alter them with the next edition?

insaniak wrote:Asking on forums for specific answers to specific WYSIWYG questions is ultimately pointless.

WYSIWYG is really very simple: When your opponent looks at the model, what he sees should be what is presented in the army list.

Conversions are fine, so long as they are recognisable. 'Counts as' is fine, so long as it is clear, consistent, and not confusing to your opponent.

All that WYSIWYG is supposed to do is make the game easier and less confusing for both players.

This is the best quote for the discussion of WYSIWYG.

IG player has modeled his units with grenade launchers, but every one of them in the army is a melta? Fine. Some units are grenade launchers and some are meltas? Doesn't meet my WYSIWYG requirement.

You kit bashed a Logan model from the space wolf terminator box? Fine.

Your chaos space marines 'count as' space wolves? Fine.

You kit bashed a model that GW does not produce from non-citadel models? Fine.

That last one is a bit tricky and not everyone is going to be ok with it. Trust me, if GW ever makes a Tcav model, I will dump what I have and buy them. Until then, I will make a model using what I can with what I got as close as I can.

helgrenze wrote:My one army is a "Counts As" SM force. The Models are old Squats. I use the exo armors as Command (converted) and Honor guard, all with artificer armor.
Converting one to be a MoF with hand made C-beamer.
I use old Battletech weapons and arms for converting combi weapons, Jaegermech arms for combi meltas, marauder arms for combi plasma.
Planning on posting a list with pics soonish.

Why did you ever buy a Jaegermech, I can't think of a single more useless unit in battletech or 40k.
Chopping it to pieces has got to be the single most effective use of a Jaegermech

schadenfreude wrote:

helgrenze wrote:My one army is a "Counts As" SM force. The Models are old Squats. I use the exo armors as Command (converted) and Honor guard, all with artificer armor.
Converting one to be a MoF with hand made C-beamer.
I use old Battletech weapons and arms for converting combi weapons, Jaegermech arms for combi meltas, marauder arms for combi plasma.
Planning on posting a list with pics soonish.

Why did you ever buy a Jaegermech, I can't think of a single more useless unit in battletech or 40k.
Chopping it to pieces has got to be the single most effective use of a Jaegermech

Actually, I caught a "Going out of Business" sale at a Game store and picked up a couple of blisters of spare mech parts... arms and weapons. And found a use for them.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:You cannot deploy a vindicator on the table during dawn of war, I dont think baal preds can go out, as scouts doesnt let you do that, only infiltrate. Sounds like you got outright cheated.

Yeah, that's definitely possible. I think it was more a case of the guy not really knowing how to play dawn of war (and to be honest, I wasn't super familiar with it either). It worked out in the end, I managed to win the game and even killed a squad of assault marines with my rough riders!

I'm in agreement with insaniak, that quote about WYSIWYG sums up the whole argument pretty well

I think insaniak also really has it down. I was worried about all of my stuff not being 100% WYSIWYG for ard boyz but i made everything clear enough to know what it was, and the same went for my opponents.

In my local ard boyz there were 3 necron players that showed up and one of them was using a modified necron destroyer lord. Basicaly he used the lower parts of a wraith and then green stuffed more larger rings and put a necron lord torso on top, so it was kinda like a necron wraith and said it was a destroyer lord. He also fielded a regular necron lord and it was plainly obvious what he was using and there were no mistakes at all.

Blackmoor, I am guess you were at Empire Games this weekend with Mundar?

Did you see the player that was playing a Demon list that nothing was WYSIWYG with the exception of just a few models? Skull Crusher was a headless, armless model on some type of Lizard mount. Some other unit was 5 or 6 Fantasy Chaos Knights mounted on round dread bases.

I don't understand how he was able to play. Granted I beat him, but that was because his list was pretty horrendous.

Arrathon wrote:let me ask you guys a question. I have tried very ahrd to make my models WYSIWYG for Ard' boyz. i made sure everything was exactly as the list said. I have all the exact correct models for everything. Now, the feller i play against yersterday plops his "blood angels" down on the board, and hands me his list.. their god damn space wolves with about 28 missle launchers glued here or there (on space hulk termies no less) and the Space hulk Librarian midel as Logan grimnar(sp) Should this of been allowed? Now yes i got my ass handed to me and there was alot of stuff i question as far as his measureing for frag grenades and whatnot, but i let it go as i just wanted to have fun. BUT it just burns my ass i spent all this money on my army to ensure it to be 100% WYSIYG and some power playing asshat plops 4 pounds of elmers glue on some models to make them Vampire space werewolves. IMO it dosen't seem right.


On a side note, said same player is here on dakka and yes buddy i am quiet sure you will read this post and not to concerned with your replies or thoughts. Other then that grats to all those Other people whom won yesterday.

I wouldn't play the asshat even for fun. This hobby is a Hobby and fun. If someone plops something like that down I wont play it. I'm in the middle of collecting all my wolves. I have a ways to go and I wont subject anyone to that stuff. I have more pride than that.

What do you guys think of non-GW standard weapons as 'counts as' (or really old GW stuff)?
... For instance, when the gun Barrel of my old predator snapped off and got lost, I used a cut piece of sprue as a long, triangular barrel, with a circular whole painted at the end just as a tip of the hat to the laws of physics. It obviously doesn't look like the origional autocannon but it's been painted into place and still looks cool and everyone knows it is what it is. I have in the past used my squats as ratling snipers (may as well do something with em, right?) they are GW figs and they carry somewhat ambiguous old school lasguns with very long barrels, so it may as well be a snip rifle since they are much longer than the modern models...
where is the line drawn? My old school marine missile launchers are about twice as big as the modern day one... does that make them obselete?

Cups as drop pods though...? feth that guy. Drop pods are abusive as it is and that's just the rules not the modelling. but a CUP?! have some respect that everyone else at least tried. I could see a scratch built card one that took some effort and at least fits the dimensions, but a cup doesn't look like a drop pod to me, doesn't have the same dimensions (which IS a factor with TLOS) any more than a brick looks like a land raider or a penny looks like an ork boy. Have some self respect, y'know? Your mathhammered proxy army of shoeboxes, legos, pennies, cups, bricks and so on may win the battles but I don't think anyone will want to remember playing against you.

I do like cardstock rhinos though. just glue a spare bolter on the top and get the dimensions right and when its painted it will blend right in (and not cost 30 bucks either)

since its a wysiwyg thread thought i would ask, pariah models are techincally equipped with the same guass blaster as an immortal, with T5, like an immortal. If i fielded all my pariahs as immortals would that count for wysiwyg for ard boys? Technically it satifies the criteria for counts as, satifies armed with weapon equivalents, and all equipped identically. According to what ive read, i just dont count the WS 'option' of the weapon. Just curious thanks.

As long as you're not using any actual Immortal models, and ALL of the Immortals you're fielding are the Pariah models, it should be okay. Just be clear in explaining it to your opponent before and during the game.

If you have a mix of different models BOTH counting as Immortals (like, two squads of "real" Immortals, then adding in a squad of Pariah counts-as Immortals because you don't own a third squad of Immortals), I would definitely not be okay with it.

well mannahnin i liked the first half, but the second half was exactly what i was planning I have converted 5 warriors to immortals, after doubling up some warrior guns and beefing up shoulder pads, theyre decent conversion, but if i was to field immortals, i d want two squads, so my pariahs would have to be the second :( I dont think Im going to run them anyway for this ard boys, the list im running is over in the army list section, posted up today. But, I would prolly agree that they should match, back to conversions till i get plastic immortals!