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Dashofpepper wrote:My Ghazghkull is going on a dreadnought base TO-NIGHT!

I call slippery slope. Bring a Trygon base just in case someone buys the Dreadnought base.

I plan on it, and a Vendetta base just in case too!

Dashofpepper wrote:I plan on it, and a Vendetta base just in case too!

Dash at 'Ard Boyz Finals...

Dash: "I deploy Ghaz from the BW."
Opponent: "Is that a trashcan lid?"
Dash: "Yep. I assault you."
Opponent: "But this is turn 1 DoW!"

Technically I cheat by making all my own bases for my Necron Destroyers. Anyone who complains about it though is a git since they're the same size as the large flight bases they come with. I just carve mine out of plasticard so they've got a flat surface that works out better for my conversions.

I was one of the people that used plastic cups for drop pods before there were GW drop pod models. I would never ad been foolish enough to hand over $80 for a bunch of FW pods. I eventually made some out of pvc parts based off of a design I saw online.

I don't have a problem with letting an opponent go beyond wysiwyg as long as it is consistent. What if somebody had 100+ ork boyz modelled as sluggas and then they decide they would rather use shootas? It would not bother me if he said before the game that all his sluggas were shootas. Who would want to paint up another 100+ boyz? I would not want to play against the same person if he said to me that X squad and Y squad were sluggas and A and B squads were shootas, as this could get a little confusing.

A friend of mine put together a tyranid army using already finished models bought off of ebay from various sellers. None of them were modelled the way he wanted them. He needed some elite dakka fexes and some heavy fexes (previous codex) so he painted the dakka fexes blue and the heavies red and let anyone he played beforehand know what they were and nobody had problems with it.

@augustus5: There's a difference between how we would play with friends and what the expectation for a tournament is.

I play with all sorts of crazy stuff at home, but Proxy and not WYSIWYG is not okay at a tournament.

pretre wrote:@augustus5: There's a difference between how we would play with friends and what the expectation for a tournament is.

I play with all sorts of crazy stuff at home, but Proxy and not WYSIWYG is not okay at a tournament.

Agreed. I let my friend in friendly games use his soda as a drop pod. In a tourney that should not fly. A side note, he deployed it turn 1, and was thirsty the whole game.

What about square bases on fantasy models being used in 40k? A lot of that happens locally. Amazing when you're 1" away with a flamer and the max you hit is 3 minis

pretre wrote:There's a difference between how we would play with friends and what the expectation for a tournament is.

I play with all sorts of crazy stuff at home, but Proxy and not WYSIWYG is not okay at a tournament.

+1 Especially when WYSIWYG is specifically mentioned as a tournament rule.

So as a TO, how far do you take WYSWIG? The examples here are pretty no brainer. What about the more tricky ones that come up from time to time.

Tyranid biomorphs. Many kits don't come with bits for biomorphs they are allowed to take (gargoyles, recut hormagaunts, to name just a few). Nothing in the codex states they have to be modeled (which is a change from the 4ed codex). Whats the ruling from those running ard boyz and similar?

Grenades. If they are upgrades and you take them (eg Black Templars frags, melta bombs for most armies) are they required? What if they aren't upgrades but come standard?

If grenades aren't required but biomorphs are -- then why?

Vehicle upgrades? Extra armor? Smoke? etc. Extra armor is one that maybe 1/3 of folks actually model (if that).

Then there's just the host of other upgrades that may not have clear cut ways to show wywig (artificer armor, digital weapons, hellfire rounds, etc etc etc). Should players be required to model such things (because it certainly is doable).

Just curious where TOs draw the line.

The size of the base is a separate discussion. If you bring models on bases not supplied with the original kit then you are leaving yourself open to abuse, especially if you happen to beat a bitter opponent. The best course of action is to strictly adhere to the rules otherwise people can claim you used modeling to your own advantage.

On the subject of WYSIWYG I personally think this is very important to abide by as a rule. I have lost count of how many times one of my ICs was instagibbed by an enemy model carrying a power weapon that suddenly morphed into a power fist. It's very annoying & uncool. Some bits like grenades I don't see as needing to be modeled but probably it's a good idea to include a few models in a squad with the appropriate bits. Blackmoor's instance of finding out only after the game had started that a Crusader counted as a Redeemer only serves to eximplify how much of a huge in game advantage is possible for such a lame substitution. And even if your opponent tells you prior to the game it's still quite easy to forget and get burned... Literally in the case of Blackmoor's example.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:The size of the base is a separate discussion. If you bring models on bases not supplied with the original kit then you are leaving yourself open to abuse, especially if you happen to beat a bitter opponent. The best course of action is to strictly adhere to the rules otherwise people can claim you used modeling to your own advantage.

Black Blow Fly wrote:
On the subject of WYSIWYG I personally think this is very important to abide by as a rule. I have lost count of how many times one of my ICs was instagibbed by an enemy model carrying a power weapon that suddenly morphed into a power fist. It's very annoying & uncool. Some bits like grenades I don't see as needing to be modeled but probably it's a good idea to include a few models in a squad with the appropriate bits. Blackmoor's instance of finding out only after the game had started that a Crusader counted as a Redeemer only serves to eximplify how much of a huge in game advantage is possible for such a lame substitution. And even if your opponent tells you prior to the game it's still quite easy to forget and get burned... Literally in the case of Blackmoor's example.

G

agreed... morphing fists... they hurt

Hahaha, and I always thought the term 'Hidden Powerfist' referred to something else...

1. Red Plastic Drink cup = Drop Pod
2. Predator with no weapons in the sponsons.
3. Rhino with no weapon. (I don't have the old codex handy, but I believe it was an option for +5 points at the time.)
4. 32 sets of Ork legs on bases.

This is just lazy, now if it's casual fine, but for a Tourney? Hell no!

I once had to fight a Titan that was a Gundam model, had to say it didn't go well.

Me and friends do all kinds of crazy stuff during friendly games to try out new ideas. Such as
terminators as hive guard
dark eldar army as pure grey knights
eldar army as pure sanguinary guard blood angels. The avengers are regular guard, the scorpion is the guy with the first, and the fire dragons have melta pistols.
chaos marines as space wolves, with index cards as wolf cavalry.

obviously none of this gak flys in tournaments. But there is a grey area. I play with two trygons in my nid army. And use a trygon and mawloc model to represent them. I always let opponents know "the two mean centipede lookin things are my trygons" as I have no other trygon/mawloc models or things based on them so its never a problem.

1. Red Plastic Drink cup = Drop Pod
2. Predator with no weapons in the sponsons.
3. Rhino with no weapon. (I don't have the old codex handy, but I believe it was an option for +5 points at the time.)
4. 32 sets of Ork legs on bases.

1) Remove it form play, not a usable model in a tourney.
2) No sponson weapons.
3) The Rhino has no gun.
4) Remove them from play, not a usable model in a tourney.

Those are all easy common sense WYSIWYG calls.

The problem with demanding the letter of the law is by the same letter someone can demand that MEQ be removed from the play halfway through the game because upon close inspection it's revealed that they don't have both frag and krak grenades, or that CSMs are not modeled with a bolt gun, bolt pistol, and CCW as I don't know anybody who glues all 3 weapons onto a single marine. Now that would be acting like a giant douche.

Ultimately it comes down to an unquantifiable amount of common sense is required for a TO to make WYSIWYG calls.

pretre wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:I plan on it, and a Vendetta base just in case too!

Dash at 'Ard Boyz Finals...

Dash: "I deploy Ghaz from the BW."
Opponent: "Is that a trashcan lid?"
Dash: "Yep. I assault you."
Opponent: "But this is turn 1 DoW!"

I actually just laughed until I choked, that was funny. =p


Automatically Appended Next Post:

J-Roc77 wrote:

pretre wrote:@augustus5: There's a difference between how we would play with friends and what the expectation for a tournament is.

I play with all sorts of crazy stuff at home, but Proxy and not WYSIWYG is not okay at a tournament.

Agreed. I let my friend in friendly games use his soda as a drop pod. In a tourney that should not fly. A side note, he deployed it turn 1, and was thirsty the whole game.

You should get him a 5 point straw upgrade so he can drink without having to move it.

Bonus points if you mount the whole nob squad on equally large bases. Deploy them front and center in dawn of war, and the enemy cannot deploy on the table.

Fearspect wrote:You are always allows to size bases up one, just not make them smaller.

That was last edition.


To be honest, I don't really think WYSIWYG even needs to be a rule. In a miniature wargame that revolves so much around the physical and visual aspects of the miniatures, using correct models really should be a no-brainer.

Here's some that I wonder about -

I have the Red Terror. What the heck is it? The codex vaguely refers to it being the attacks of both Trygons and Ravenors being confused. I've lengthened it by an inch or so, but when I finally saw a Trygon in the flesh, it was WAY bigger than my Terror, and had a bigger base too, despite the fact that I'd up based the terror. I might want to use it this weekend, but have mixed feelings on the subject.

Also, my position is that you can use the original bases the models came with, even if GW has since made the model larger. The notion that GW has somehow factored base size into game balance is total nonsense (Hey, lets make termies a little cheaper because they are on larger bases now and can't deepstrike as effectively - sure.), and I don't feel like rebasing them.

kestral wrote:Here's some that I wonder about -

I have the Red Terror. What the heck is it? The codex vaguely refers to it being the attacks of both Trygons and Ravenors being confused. I've lengthened it by an inch or so, but when I finally saw a Trygon in the flesh, it was WAY bigger than my Terror, and had a bigger base too, despite the fact that I'd up based the terror. I might want to use it this weekend, but have mixed feelings on the subject.

The Red terror model is just a Ravenor now. The Red Terror fluff is all sorts of crazy and at odds with 'reality'.

kestral wrote:
Also, my position is that you can use the original bases the models came with, even if GW has since made the model larger. The notion that GW has somehow factored base size into game balance is total nonsense (Hey, lets make termies a little cheaper because they are on larger bases now and can't deepstrike as effectively - sure.), and I don't feel like rebasing them.

That is your position and technically RAW, iirc. That being said it's a base and your reason for not doing it is 'I don't feel like it...' I have old Termy bases and if I was going to field them, I would join the modern age and up base them.

<<Insert silly comparision between not basing your minis and using some absurd old model>>

kestral wrote:Here's some that I wonder about -

I have the Red Terror. What the heck is it? The codex vaguely refers to it being the attacks of both Trygons and Ravenors being confused. I've lengthened it by an inch or so, but when I finally saw a Trygon in the flesh, it was WAY bigger than my Terror, and had a bigger base too, despite the fact that I'd up based the terror. I might want to use it this weekend, but have mixed feelings on the subject.

Yeah, I don't think anyone's going to sweat you using it as a Ravener when it's on the same base, roughly the same size and fluffilogically was a big mutant Ravener back in the day. Current fluff does suggest something in between a Ravener and a Mawloc, but clearly it's not a Mawloc or even close to that size.

If there's a question, conveniently point out that the fluff box for the RT is under the Ravener listing.

A few questions (Just because I'm slightly worried now)

1.The Demon Prince is definitely on a dreadnought base size even though supplied with a terminator base?

2.Do you have to model the third weapon or grenades to chaos marines?

Well, perhaps "I don't feel like it" is a bit flip. How about "round bases are expensive with shipping, or with the other ones you have to buy with them" and "old termies look kind of silly on big bases and take up too much space in the figure cabinet". I'd add "I worked really hard on the basing", but that wouldn't be true. : )

I use my Red Terror model as a CC dedicated Warrior Prime.

Great Unclean One wrote:A few questions (Just because I'm slightly worried now)

1.The Demon Prince is definitely on a dreadnought base size even though supplied with a terminator base?

2.Do you have to model the third weapon or grenades to chaos marines?

I have to wonder on this as well. I put my daemon princes on dreadnought bases just because the terminator bases are too small for a daemon prince. The model is huge and a monsterous creature, i really thought he deserved something larger, not even from a gaming aspect, it just looks better. Am i gunna get dinged for this?

I also modeled some of my new CSM all with CC weapon and bolt pistol. It is assumed they have a bolter isnt it? or would i just not be allowed to shoot the bolter of people really got upset over it?

Also im referencing this to ard boyz if that helps.

mrwittwer wrote:
I have to wonder on this as well. I put my daemon princes on dreadnought bases just because the terminator bases are too small for a daemon prince. The model is huge and a monsterous creature, i really thought he deserved something larger, not even from a gaming aspect, it just looks better. Am i gunna get dinged for this?

Oversized bases directly impact assaulting out of transports and unit coherency. Neither of these issues are usually a concern for Demon Princes. As long as it doesn't impact gameplay, opponents usually won't have a problem granting 'opponent's permission'.

Really comes down to... if your opponent feels it is abusive, and doesn't agree to your models, he is in the right. TO is simply someone who can make those calls at events to maintain consistency and protect players from sportsmanship issues.

Well, the only thing is that in the GW shop (The Nurgle DP) it's on a dread sized base. Also, in GW books/white dwarf they are on big bases even though GW supplies them with terminator sized ones

Great Unclean One wrote:1.The Demon Prince is definitely on a dreadnought base size even though supplied with a terminator base?

It should be on whichever base it comes with. The Nurgle Prince (as far as I know) is usually supplied with a 60mm base. The regular 40K Prince model comes with a 40mm, unless they've changed it.


That being said, in practice, most people not only don't care if you use a slightly larger base, they most likely won't even notice. If you're really worried about it, check with the TO before the event.

2.Do you have to model the third weapon or grenades to chaos marines?

Grenades are rarely required for WYSIWYG. Weapons all should be, although as long as they are represented on the majority of the squad, that's usually good enough.

Ah ok, thanks man, the problem is that the chaos marines come with chainsword, pistol and bolter as standard and fitting them all on a model can be a wee bit tricky... also makes them look very bulky. But thanks for that ^^