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I see a lot of people talking about WYSIWYG and wondering if it is ok to play at tournaments without being 100% WYSIWYG.

For example:
Is it ok to use spinegants for termagants?
Is it ok to use a power weapon for a powerfist?
It is ok to use X unit for Y unit?
Etc.

Here is the truth: Tournament organizers normally don’t care, and most of the time neither will your opponent. The only time it will ever be an issue is if you get the wrong type of opponent and you start to beat them. Then all of a sudden WYSIWYG will be an issue because then he will start to complain about your models and might have the TO come over to do something about it.

As they say in boxing, ‘you must protect yourself at all times’, so just as a precaution, you should always be WSYWIG as much as you can, and when you can’t, talk to the TO beforehand, and clearly explain to your opponent before the game begins what is, and what is not WYSIWYG.

But always try to be WYSWIG at all times as far as weapon options goes. I played against a land raider Redeemer last year at the 'Ard Boyz and it was a LR Crusader model. It was an unpleasant surprise to get flamed by that thing. Also you do not want to have your opponent keep track of what weapon options are on what unit. They should be clearly displayed so everyone knows what each unit has, and there is not issues about who had what item. Your opponent does not want (and should not) have to keep track of all of your proxies, and it can be confusing and frustrating if you have to remember all of them, and play the game in a timely manner.

Blackmoor wrote:
Here is the truth: Tournament organizers normally don’t care, and most of the time neither will your opponent. The only time it will ever be an issue is if you get the wrong type of opponent and you start to beat them. Then all of a sudden WYSIWYG will be an issue because then he will start to complain about your models and might have the TO come over to do something about it.

QFT

MOST tournament organizers don't care.

I do. Especially for 'Ardboyz. Others may as well. Don't chance it and make sure your army is WYSIWYG.

I long ago got sick of hearing how someone went to a GW run GT and had to play some 10 year old with a broken, unpainted army. The rules said NO, but no one wanted to tell him he had to go home. At the first 'Ardboyz regionals I ran, a guy showed up with red plastic cups for drop pods. I had to decide: Be a hardass on the rules, or do just what everyone else had done and not call anyone on it. I called him on it. No doors, no weapons, it's a drink cup, take it off the table. This followed making several people fix the broken weapons on predators and rhinos, and finally kicking one player out of the tournament, since his Ork boyz were legs glued to bases.

Since then, I try to be consistant from locals to regionals. WYWIWYG is the rule, and it gets enforced. Especially at the regional level, no one should be surprised by it. We'll see if I have to be the hard ass at the east coast nationals this year too.)

Also it makes them buy stuff from your store :p But remember, counts as is legal too

I agree on cups as drop pods, I hate that because while I dont care about painted models I want my opponent to have A LITTLE self respect for himself and the hobby

I have been to several tournaments where the only rule was WYSIWYG.

I spend a lot of time making sure my models have what their stat line says they do.

When all the marbles are on the line I expect the same from my opponent.

To be fair though, mikhaila, s0me of your examples are way beyond WYSIWYG into the realm of 'Really???'.

That being said, I appreciate your approach and wish that was the way things were run across the board.

I put a lot of time and effort into my armies and appreciate being able to put them down and have people not have to ask what something is.

I only wish everyone else felt the same.

Blackmoor wrote:
Here is the truth: Tournament organizers normally don’t care, and most of the time neither will your opponent. The only time it will ever be an issue is if you get the wrong type of opponent and you start to beat them. Then all of a sudden WYSIWYG will be an issue because then he will start to complain about your models and might have the TO come over to do something about it.

But always try to be WYSWIG at all times as far as weapon options goes. I played against a land raider Redeemer last year at the 'Ard Boyz and it was a LR Crusader model. It was an unpleasant surprise to get flamed by that thing. Also you do not want to have your opponent keep track of what weapon options are on what unit. They should be clearly displayed so everyone knows what each unit has, and there is not issues about who had what item. Your opponent does not want (and should not) have to keep track of all of your proxies, and it can be confusing and frustrating if you have to remember all of them, and play the game in a timely manner.

Wait... which is it? is WYSIWYG only expected by selfish game-losing TFG or is it a weapon of gamecheating WAACers who are screwing opponents via non-WYSIWYG gamers who are abusing proxies to win? I am getting mixed messages...

If WYSIWYG is the law of the land, do not show up and expect to use proxies. It is that simple.

Here's an interesting one

What about combi-weapons?

All you are buying is a "combi-weapon" so must you specifically model the correct type, or just a general combi weapon?

Blackmoor is pretty spot on.

WYSIWYG is almost never required, anywhere. What's required is that everything be clear enough to easily identify.

In the world of modern 40k, where you give your opponent the army list ... it's more about having a painted army, than it is making sure those veterans have lasguns or shotguns modeled on them, or making sure all of your combi-weapons are perfectly modeled.

Puritanical opponents and jackasses are exceptions to the rule, and certainly not ones to be reinforced.

lunarman wrote:
What about combi-weapons?

All you are buying is a "combi-weapon" so must you specifically model the correct type, or just a general combi weapon?

You better be building a 4 barreled weapon with each possibility, then.

lunarman wrote:Here's an interesting one

What about combi-weapons?

All you are buying is a "combi-weapon" so must you specifically model the correct type, or just a general combi weapon?

What codex allows you to buy a 'Combi-weapon'?

All the ones I know of make you purchase a specific one, i.e. Combi-flamer, combi-melta, combi-plasma, combi-stake, etc.

And yes, Combi-weapons are upgrades and weapons. The doubly should be WYSIWYG.

As an organizer, I can say my stance has always been this: If its not WYSIWYG, you had better be clear during deployment as to what the unit is, exactly. I have seen the magical morphing wargear happen too many times in games. At the bare minimum, if the model is not accurate (because, say, there are no whips and swords for Nid Warriors, or you only own spinegaunts) then all identical looking models had best be kitted out in the same manner. Anything else is a recipe for confusion, at best, and cheating at worst.

pretre wrote:
What codex allows you to buy a 'Combi-weapon'?

The Chaos Lord entry simply states "Combi-weapon", not any specific ones.

In fact, it's the same way in every entry in that book with access to it.

Platuan4th wrote:

pretre wrote:
What codex allows you to buy a 'Combi-weapon'?

The Chaos Lord entry simply states "Combi-weapon", not any specific ones.

Consider me served.

Maybe they have the Obliterator of Combi-weapons. That would be very chaos-y.

WYSIWIG is the only part of the "hobby" aspect of the game that is being used for the tournament. it's advertised ahead of time so can't be a suprise to anyone who is literate or even simply interested enough to care to ask what the rules are. regardless of how the game is going, in a tourny, it's not up to your opponent to keep track of your models that aren't what they seem. i play against counts as models in friendly games all the time (i even have a counts as army) but they don't belong in a tourny that specifically says they don't.

WYSIWYG is usually enforced more as "You can clearly tell what the model should have is what you get." Especially in using "counts as" lists. But basically things like power swords as powerfists are a no go as the player can switch weapons intentionally or accidentally in the middle of the game to advantage.

The real issue is that models have to start the tourney glued together, a big issue for me once when I pitched my eldar off their display base on the way to the tourney hall.

I wouldn't show up with an unassembled model but I have had gus that came off, etc and I had to just lay by the model. Right now my forge world avatar sword is in 5 pieces since my son got a hold of it!

pretre wrote:To be fair though, mikhaila, s0me of your examples are way beyond WYSIWYG into the realm of 'Really???'.

That being said, I appreciate your approach and wish that was the way things were run across the board.

I put a lot of time and effort into my armies and appreciate being able to put them down and have people not have to ask what something is.

I only wish everyone else felt the same.

Heh, ok, I'll play.) Explain which of these is not WYSIWYG, and into the realm of 'Really?'

1. Red Plastic Drink cup = Drop Pod
2. Predator with no weapons in the sponsons.
3. Rhino with no weapon. (I don't have the old codex handy, but I believe it was an option for +5 points at the time.)
4. 32 sets of Ork legs on bases.

As a TO, you have to be fair. If you ding one person for something, you have to enforce it on everyone. Know what the guys that had broken weapons did? They pulled the parts out of their cases, picked up the glue and kicker I had sitting on the "fix it" table, and fixed their models before the start of the game. I routinely have bitz boxes and glue available. Many people just don't feel like fixing models until they have to.

'Ardboyz has no painting required at all. With grey plastics legions roaming the tables, WYSIWYG is especially important.

mikhaila wrote:

Heh, ok, I'll play.) Explain which of these is not WYSIWYG, and into the realm of 'Really?'

1. Red Plastic Drink cup = Drop Pod - 'Really?' I mean, it's not even a model. What's next Soda can Carnifex?
2. Predator with no weapons in the sponsons. - WYSIWYG. Model is right, they just didn't model their 'upgrades'
3. Rhino with no weapon. (I don't have the old codex handy, but I believe it was an option for +5 points at the time.) WYSIWYG. Model is right, they just didn't model their 'upgrades'
4. 32 sets of Ork legs on bases. 'Really?' I mean, it's not even a complete model. Although I guess it could be an extreme form of count-as... Torso-impaired clan orks.

mikhaila wrote:
As a TO, you have to be fair. If you ding one person for something, you have to enforce it on everyone.

It's a matter of degree, I think.
Broken bitz... Meh, that happens.
Soda Can Carnifex, Red Cup Drop Pod... That's just rude to everyone there.

I think the key to your style, as you describe it, is openness. People know the rules when they go to your store and they are consistent.

mikhaila wrote:
'Ardboyz has no painting required at all. With grey plastics legions roaming the tables, WYSIWYG is especially important.

Agreed in principle. Resigned to reality. :(

mikhaila wrote:

pretre wrote:To be fair though, mikhaila, s0me of your examples are way beyond WYSIWYG into the realm of 'Really???'.

That being said, I appreciate your approach and wish that was the way things were run across the board.

I put a lot of time and effort into my armies and appreciate being able to put them down and have people not have to ask what something is.

I only wish everyone else felt the same.

Heh, ok, I'll play.) Explain which of these is not WYSIWYG, and into the realm of 'Really?'

1. Red Plastic Drink cup = Drop Pod
2. Predator with no weapons in the sponsons.
3. Rhino with no weapon. (I don't have the old codex handy, but I believe it was an option for +5 points at the time.)
4. 32 sets of Ork legs on bases.

As a TO, you have to be fair. If you ding one person for something, you have to enforce it on everyone. Know what the guys that had broken weapons did? They pulled the parts out of their cases, picked up the glue and kicker I had sitting on the "fix it" table, and fixed their models before the start of the game. I routinely have bitz boxes and glue available. Many people just don't feel like fixing models until they have to.

'Ardboyz has no painting required at all. With grey plastics legions roaming the tables, WYSIWYG is especially important.

Heh. You're awesome.

Red plastic cups fall into the "Lol...really?" realm. Definitely wouldn't allow those put on the table. Predator with no weapons in the sponsons. Is that even legal? I would have told the player that he's welcome to use it on the table, but its WYSIWYG - it has no weapons. Vroom vroom paperweight. The rhino with no weapon; that's an easy one. It gets played as a rhino with no weapon. Don't care if they spent points on the weapon, it doesn't get one. And the 32 sets of Ork legs on bases.....well, looks like those 32 orks got their heads (and torsos) blown off already, so he's got some handy casualty markers, but they certainly aren't live ones.

OP covered my worst fear. Wait, what? That has a flamer? This is supposed to be WYSIWYG.

I thnk he was saying the red cups was above and beyond anyting that should be allowed by a reasonable person.

Yeah I need to figure out whho's going to be my Vulkan Stand in as my Vulkan is on a 40mm base.

I was going to past a query about peoples thoughts to this anyway, so since there are a few varied opinions in this thread already ...

I have tzeentch themed models with chaos combi weapons that are modeled as spells in the form of flaming skulls trailign fire. They are magnetized so they can be removed once used, and connect to various flaming books, marines hands, etc. They dont actually use flamer/plasma/melta bits, instead they are single fireball = combi flamer, single red flaming skull = combi melta, and dual purple flaming skulls = combi plasma.

I know they will be allowed in the first round as I have spoken with the organizer. Do you think this "counts as" would still be considered wysiwig? It is consistant across the board and explained as I deply them. Just wondering if I should start hoarding bits if I place and advance.

Most locals think its not a problem, but i have had one local say they should use the actual bits to be wysiwig.

ok Im guilty of the DIY drop pods back in the day. But at least I had spray painted the soda bottles and the cds they were attached to black and did some other mods to them. But just regular drinking cups...come on, lil more imagination there please.

If they're painted and look cool they are better than a combi-flamer/melta/plasma! I think it has the coolness factor if done right that very few people will have a problem with it. Though I would put it on the lists you hand to people so they have a fast reference

Although 'Counts as' is opponent permission, Rule of cool always helps.

asugradinwa wrote:Yeah I need to figure out whho's going to be my Vulkan Stand in as my Vulkan is on a 40mm base.

You are always allows to size bases up one, just not make them smaller.

Fearspect wrote:

asugradinwa wrote:Yeah I need to figure out whho's going to be my Vulkan Stand in as my Vulkan is on a 40mm base.

You are always allows to size bases up one, just not make them smaller.

4th edition rules creep!

Upsizing leads to blatant and game-impacting cheating. 60mm Ghazghkull wants to discuss his extra 20mm of assault distance out of transports with you...

Fearspect wrote:

asugradinwa wrote:Yeah I need to figure out whho's going to be my Vulkan Stand in as my Vulkan is on a 40mm base.

You are always allows to size bases up one, just not make them smaller.

Not sure where you get this, I've never seen this in a rulebook.

nkelsch wrote:
Upsizing leads to blatant and game-impacting cheating. 60mm Ghazghkull wants to discuss his extra 20mm of assault distance out of transports with you...

^Win

My Ghazghkull is going on a dreadnought base TO-NIGHT!