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MasterSlowPoke wrote:If it's the only chainswords in the army (probably only Catachan armies apply here)? Sure. I'm not sure how you could really be confused by what a HQ IC has, though - there's not exactly a surplus of them and they're right at the top of the roster.

It was a Blood Angel army and I didn't see the roster...I just asked what things had and it kept on getting repeated that everything was WYSIWYG

olympia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

olympia wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

I've never allowed BS to be proxied as looters in my tournaments. If you want looters, go buy looters, or take some time converting the big shooters into deffguns.

If I buy them from you will it help my comp score?

AoBR big shootas 'counts as' lootas more than satisfies the WYSIWYG guidelines on p. 47 if you have no other like models in your army.

Obviously it will help your comp score if you have the right models. It verges on libel to imply you need to buy them from the organiser.

Good luck arguing with the tournament organiser about his own tournament rules in his own venue.

Obviously i would not attend any event if the organizer failed to observe GWs own standards in this regard.

Then you have the solution so there is no need to complain.

'What You See Is What You Get
The rule requirement is that such equipment must be visually represented on the model so your opponents can clearly see what they are facing...While some tournaments may be more strict about this kind of thing, most opponents are happy to accommodate a small degree of one thing counting as another, so long as you explain exactly who has what at the start of the game.

p.47

As a reference point, here is the rulespack for the 2009 Throne of Skulls
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m160017a_Throne_of_Skulls_-_Warhammer_40,000_Pack.pdf

Under both a big shoota could be used as loota as long as it was distinguishable from any other model (perhaps by free painting 'deffgun' on it).

I can see how you might think that rule was applicable generally, however each tournament has its own rules so you should always check with the TO about such things.

Blackmoor wrote:Is it ok to use a power weapon for a powerfist?
Tournament organizers normally don’t care, and most of the time neither will your opponent.

But always try to be WYSWIG at all times as far as weapon options goes. I played against a land raider Redeemer last year at the 'Ard Boyz and it was a LR Crusader model. It was an unpleasant surprise to get flamed by that thing. Also you do not want to have your opponent keep track of what weapon options are on what unit.

I'm confused - are you saying wysiwyg is required or not?

I find this discussion ...interesting. Why? Because I have 3000 points worth of Space Marines that is nothing but, as one poster insists, Proxies.
(The list can be seen here... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/296098.page )

According to some this would be illegal in Tournament Play, though I have tried to make everything wysiwyg. Many of the weapons do not look "standard' but are standardised within the list.

Which begs the question.... If it is standardised within the list, (using orks for examples here.) say all red guns are shootas and all yellow guns are Lootas, would that cause an issue?

Technically that would not be allowed. However if you are absolutely 100% consistent thenyou will usually get away with it.

For counts-as armies like your squats that's the way to go.

Do you guys think it's messed up if sometimes I proxy my champions plasma pistol as a bolt pistol if I don't wanna upgrade?

Zulander wrote:Do you guys think it's messed up if sometimes I proxy my champions plasma pistol as a bolt pistol if I don't wanna upgrade?

In a friendly game, I'd say you're fine, if you tell your opponent. In a tournament, it's up to the TO as to how strict he would be on WYSIWYG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

olympia wrote:

'What You See Is What You Get
The rule requirement is that such equipment must be visually represented on the model so your opponents can clearly see what they are facing...While some tournaments may be more strict about this kind of thing, most opponents are happy to accommodate a small degree of one thing counting as another, so long as you explain exactly who has what at the start of the game.

p.47

As a reference point, here is the rulespack for the 2009 Throne of Skulls
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m160017a_Throne_of_Skulls_-_Warhammer_40,000_Pack.pdf

Under both a big shoota could be used as loota as long as it was distinguishable from any other model (perhaps by free painting 'deffgun' on it).

So then you're actually not argueing at all, good. I'm sure you were able to read your own post where it says While some tournaments may be more strict. So while MOST opponents will let you slide, SOME won't, and SOME TOURNAMENTS will be more strict.

Which brings us back to the oft mentioned bit of wisdom "Check with the TO".

Throne of Skulls only matter if you want to go play in Throne of Skulls. Independent tournaments are just that, Independent. Reading the rules for a tournement and checking with the TO is always a good thing.

This really is kind of a much ado about nothing. If you just want to play a game you'll use whatever you got. I don't think my linoleum floor kitchen really cares if all my Guardians are actually pawns from a chess set.

If I go to a setting where obvious care has been taken to include the aesthetic side of the hobby, rather than just the competative side, then you would expect to show up appropriately, out of respect for everyone else who put forth the effort expicting the same. We don't show up in court in cutoff shorts and a tshirt that reeks of beer and expect the judge to look highly upon us, we show up in a suit and tie even though it obviously isn't our normal dress.

There's a place for proxies and unpainted stuff in my world, and its called the kitchen floor. 'pro' tournaments have a higher expectation than my kitchen floor, and if I will not meet it, I will not go, I will stay on my kitchen floor with milk cartons and friends who dont care and stacks of random cardboard and just have fun.

olympia wrote:

'What You See Is What You Get
The rule requirement is that such equipment must be visually represented on the model so your opponents can clearly see what they are facing...While some tournaments may be more strict about this kind of thing, most opponents are happy to accommodate a small degree of one thing counting as another, so long as you explain exactly who has what at the start of the game.

p.47

As a reference point, here is the rulespack for the 2009 Throne of Skulls
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m160017a_Throne_of_Skulls_-_Warhammer_40,000_Pack.pdf

Under both a big shoota could be used as loota as long as it was distinguishable from any other model (perhaps by free painting 'deffgun' on it).

Nope. Page 47 and the PDF for Throne of Skulls do not support what you are saying in any way.

Your 'All X is Y' rule is not supported by any rules... The real rule is 'as long as opponent consents, you can play however both players agree.' Your problem is your opponent is playing by the rules, the event set rules and youa re making up reasons why you do not have to follow them.

Here is something that is probably lost on you. Since you are unable to follow rules and want to make excuses, this was written just for you it seems.

"This is a grown up hobby played by grown up people who are sensible enough to know both what "fully painted" and "acceptable" means.

Let's look at the very PDF your reference for standards... Oh it said check the Warhammer world site to illustrate the standards 'they' expect.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m240024a_Warhammer_World_-_Rules_of_Engagement.pdf

WYSIWYG
An important principle of our events is "what your see is what you get" or WYSIWYG for short. All this means is unless you are using the 'CountsAs' Rule then the miniatures used are assumed to have their equipment actually shown on the model.

It would be grossly unfair to show the model being equipped with one thing, but claiming it to be armed with another; wars have been started for less.

There you go... Throne of Skulls, warhammer world, GW... ALL SAY YOU ARE WRONG AND ARE BREAKING THE RULES>

Let's see this 'counts as' rule...

The 'Counts as' rule allows you to apply the rules for existing units to older scratch built models that do not have rules of thier own. This is to allow you to make full use of your collection or the army choses within our rulebooks; it's not an excuse to change your army as a way of fine tuning your force

Now you know GW's definition since you seem to be using it wrong. Using a 3rd edition Lootas with a plasmacannona as deffgun is 'COUNTS AS'. Using a 3rd edition stikkbomma as a Kommando is 'counts as'. Using a Squig katapult as a Lobba is 'counts as'. Using a 3rd Edition Skarboy as a slugga boy is 'counts as'. Using 2nd edition orks with imperial bolters as Shootas is 'counts as'. Using an Ork with a Plasmagun as a KMB is 'counts as'.

*NONE* of the examples here in this thread is acceptable. 6+ AoBR as 4+ 'ard boyz is unacceptable. Shootas as Sluggas is unacceptable. BS as Deffguns is UNACCEPTABLE. They ahve explicitly called out this behavior in thier little PDF.

You are 100% wrong. GW says you are wrong in every capacity. Every link you post also says you are wrong.

Friendly play takes opponents consent. Official events that require WYSIWYG require WYSIWYG. You are in no way WYSIWYG or COUNTS AS if you call a stock BS model a Loota with a Deffgun.

nklesh, your indignant post is not compelling. The "Counts As" section of that rule .pdf tells you to contact the Referee and further states that the referee may or may not allow the "counts as." Having played in many of these events, and knowing some of these referees, I can assure you that the basis of the decision would be whether or not the model is obviously distinguishable and/or identifiable. This is why I have always seen big shootas 'counts as' lootas allowed at events in the UK as long as there are no other big shootas in the army. And the party of about being played by grown-ups is apropos. It means to me, and most people I know, don't be a blowhard.

olympia wrote:nklesh, your indignant post is not compelling. The "Counts As" section of that rule .pdf tells you to contact the Referee and further states that the referee may or may not allow the "counts as." Having played in many of these events, and knowing some of these referees, I can assure you that the basis of the decision would be whether or not the model is obviously distinguishable and/or identifiable. This is why I have always seen big shootas 'counts as' lootas allowed at events in the UK as long as there are no other big shootas in the army. And the party of about being played by grown-ups is apropos. It means to me, and most people I know, don't be a blowhard.

Let's see.

You claimed using Big shootas a s Lootas meets WYSIWYG. It has been proven it does not. You ignore it and expect special treatment.

You then claimed using Big Shootas as Lootas meets Counts as. It has been proven it does not. You ignore the raw definition set forth for counts as, your model does not fit it in any way and you expect special treatment.

You then claimed to "have played in many of these events and knowing the referees" that your exception to the rules would be allowed. (as if your "I dun saw it allowed so it must be true" is any more valid than anyone else's experiences.) Then many people who have also played in these events and many TOs for some of these events who have acted as judges have weighed in and said it neither meets WYSIWYG or Counts as. And yet... you expect special treatment.

I still do not see this language of 'If it is identifiable, all X may be Y' ANYWHERE. You are making it up. That is not the standard allowed. It was never the standard allowed at the US GTs. It is not the standard allowed at many if not all the events today and was not the standard allowed at 'ard boyz less than a month ago.

Anywhere it *WAS* allowed was breaking the rules and the judges were being lazy... It isn't because that is the way the rule works. TOs may set thier own expectation to what is allowed, but your examples are not universal or acceptable if you follow GW's standards or many other event's standards.

I would like to see an Ork list with no big shootas. If you are taking pretty much any ork transport I bet you will have a BIG SHOOTA as a BIG SHOOTA which means your lootas are breaking your made-up 'All x are y' rule.

You are wrong in every way. The only way your proxies are accepted is if the event does not require WYSIWYG or is lazy in enforcing thier rules. You are not following the rules in any way. Stock Big Shootas are never WYSIWYG or COUNTS AS for Deffguns and they never will be. They are always and will always be Proxies. If the event does not allow proxies, you and your proxies should not be welcome and people who paid money for a Painted WYSIWYG event have the right to complain about you and your breaking of the event rules.

I think the 'counts as' differentiation has to do with creative modelling, not the same as proxies. If I don't like my farseer figure for instance. and trick him out a lot with adornments and different bits he could be a 'counts as' Eldrad for instance, but still the figure is very obviously standing out as unique. a proxy Eldrad would just be taking my farseer figure and saying 'that's Eldrad' without any attempt to differentiate him from his origional role the figure was made as. Likewise, my old Squat figures with long barrelled lasguns could be 'counts as' ratlings and I doubt if anyone could complain since they approximately the same size and are obviously not regular full size guardsmen.

Guitardian wrote: I think the 'counts as' differentiation has to do with creative modelling, not the same as proxies.

That's it exactly. The 'counts as' allowance is intended to allow for creative modeling, or for players to use models that no longer fit into the current rules. Proxying is just a way of using whatever you have on hand as something that you don't have. It's a fine distinction, but there is a difference.

I really don't care about the whole WYSIWYG, because its not about the model but about the game play. if you can't beat someone with non-WYSIWYG army can then complain to a TO. Then who the spoil sport? I say just play the game and that all. Remember the difference between a 10 year ago and adult, one the adult has more money and two the child depends on his parents to support his or her interest.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:I really don't care about the whole WYSIWYG, because its not about the model but about the game play.

Better and easier game play is exactly why WYSIWYG is important. It's not just a way to force you to spend more time modeling. It's supposed to make for a more fun game, by reducing the effort needed to figure out what is what on the table.

insaniak wrote:

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:I really don't care about the whole WYSIWYG, because its not about the model but about the game play.

Better and easier game play is exactly why WYSIWYG is important. It's not just a way to force you to spend more time modeling. It's supposed to make for a more fun game, by reducing the effort needed to figure out what is what on the table.

It's not going to spend more time????yeah it will and even worst you going to spend a hell alot of more money, trust me I should know. I have 15 ThuderCavalry are which WYSIWYG to the max, each model cost me about 80.00 per guy, yeah talking about spending time on ebay looking for the correct parts and modeling. The truth about WYSIWYG is the same about who can run for Congress, its about how big is your bank account and far will you go.

Don't forget your suit and tie...

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:It's not going to spend more time????

I didn't say that. I said it's not just about spending more time modeling.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:

insaniak wrote:

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:I really don't care about the whole WYSIWYG, because its not about the model but about the game play.

Better and easier game play is exactly why WYSIWYG is important. It's not just a way to force you to spend more time modeling. It's supposed to make for a more fun game, by reducing the effort needed to figure out what is what on the table.

It's not going to spend more time????yeah it will and even worst you going to spend a hell alot of more money, trust me I should know. I have 15 ThuderCavalry are which WYSIWYG to the max, each model cost me about 80.00 per guy, yeah talking about spending time on ebay looking for the correct parts and modeling. The truth about WYSIWYG is the same about who can run for Congress, its about how big is your bank account and far will you go.

Even 'ard boyz which doesnt require painted models and entire purpose is to focus on gameplay still requires WYSIWYG. WYSIWYG makes things so much easier for both you and your opponent. Examples, if you happen to forget what all your models are upgraded with, just look at the table. Your opponent doesnt have to spend time looking at your army list every turn. There are no surprises that lead to disputes which take up game time.

Also if you read what insaniak wrote, he didnt say it wouldnt take time. He just stated that the purpose isnt to just make you spend more time. *Ninjaed* And maybe its just me, but warhammer isnt my job, its a hobby. I want to put time into my models to make them look proper and be usable in game. I enjoy playing all the crazy rules and being creative with modeling.

IMO, WYSIWYG is one of the best rules GW has ever enforced.

Guitardian wrote:This really is kind of a much ado about nothing. If you just want to play a game you'll use whatever you got. I don't think my linoleum floor kitchen really cares if all my Guardians are actually pawns from a chess set.

If I go to a setting where obvious care has been taken to include the aesthetic side of the hobby, rather than just the competative side, then you would expect to show up appropriately, out of respect for everyone else who put forth the effort expicting the same. We don't show up in court in cutoff shorts and a tshirt that reeks of beer and expect the judge to look highly upon us, we show up in a suit and tie even though it obviously isn't our normal dress.

There's a place for proxies and unpainted stuff in my world, and its called the kitchen floor. 'pro' tournaments have a higher expectation than my kitchen floor, and if I will not meet it, I will not go, I will stay on my kitchen floor with milk cartons and friends who dont care and stacks of random cardboard and just have fun.

My sentiments exactly. If I want to use IG cadians as hormagaunts,who's gonna stop me? I don't play tournaments and never will, so why bother buying so many models,except for aesthetic reasons?

I really find it surprising so many people care about this sort of thing. How hard is it to mentally map out what models your opponent is using? Seriously,just pay more attention.

I will say though,that it's entirely up to the proxy-er to inform you of his models. If they don't explain well enough the first time, then don't bother playing,because obviously,they aren't taking it as seriously as they should.

Anyway, I play Black Legion. Would anyone mind if I used ultramarines,in addition to my Black Leggionaires as "proxies"? They're completely WYSIWYG, obviously. I like the aesthetic mix of colors, usually to signal a different unit format. No one I've played with has a problem with this.

Samus_aran115 wrote:I really find it surprising so many people care about this sort of thing.

Really? In a miniatures game that relies so heavily on the visual and physical aspects of the miniatures, with a rich background and flavour behind those miniatures, you find it surprising that people would want the miniatures to actually reflect what they are supposed to be?

How hard is it to mentally map out what models your opponent is using?

It might not be hard at all for some. But that's not the point. It's easier to not have to do so... which is ultimately all that WYSIWYG is all about.



You'll find that, in practice, most players will accept (some with more grace than others, admittedly) far more than they will say they prefer in a discussion like this.

Samus_aran115 wrote:My sentiments exactly. If I want to use IG cadians as hormagaunts,who's gonna stop me? I don't play tournaments and never will, so why bother buying so many models,except for aesthetic reasons?

No one here disagrees with you.

Mainly because the topic was WYSIWYG at Tounaments.
Since , as you say, you don't play tournaments, no one really cares what you do.

So, there are a lot of pages and maybe someone already asked, but i have a question.

If i went to a tournament, and played nids. Would it be ok to clearly state that all the tgaunts have fleshbore gun. I don't want to pull of all the arms of spinefists/devs. I am in the process of buying more. But.... do you think that would be ok at a tournament?? I feel like it should be because all the gaunts are treated the same with the same weapon.

acreedon wrote:If i went to a tournament, and played nids. Would it be ok to clearly state that all the tgaunts have fleshbore gun.

That would be entirely up to the tournament organiser. You won't get an answer here that actually means anything unless whoever generally runs the tournaments you play in happens to be posting here.

mikhaila wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:My sentiments exactly. If I want to use IG cadians as hormagaunts,who's gonna stop me? I don't play tournaments and never will, so why bother buying so many models,except for aesthetic reasons?

No one here disagrees with you.

Mainly because the topic was WYSIWYG at Tounaments.
Since , as you say, you don't play tournaments, no one really cares what you do.

\

Ah,I see. No need to be rude.

thanks

Samus_aran115 wrote:I really find it surprising so many people care about this sort of thing. How hard is it to mentally map out what models your opponent is using? Seriously,just pay more attention.

This is where the difference between counts-as and proxies comes in.

If you're using old arbites models or something as sergeants and you tell me "mauls are actually power weapons", that's easy to remember. Plus, since they're obviously not correct models I'm not going to think that they're WYSIWYG.

On the other hand, if you're using power weapon models and you tell me "these three are power weapons but these other three are fists", everytime I look at them I'm going to see power weapons. You're adding to the stuff I need to stay on top of because you couldn't just stick with what the models have.

That's the bit I don't get - why is it so hard to just use the model as what it is? Do you need that weapon option so badly? Especially for casual play.

im also rather amused that people assume you can always visually identifiy models even if they are done perfectly WYSIWYG.

ultimatly the real arbiter is what your opponent says they are armed with, you can assume that such and such a thing is this or that. and for you to be able to easilly identify which unit is which.

There are enough various models, enough assumptions of what looks like eavy armor for example ( and something that isnt set in stone like that is always grounds for dispute from a twit) that you have to ultimatly fall back upon what your opponent says.

and frankly using Ork boyz for ard boyz, or conscripts for carapaced armored vets is al subjective.

and isnt the same thing at all as using terminators for witches.

It is very possible for some people to think they have achieved wysiwyg and others to get all up in arms because they havent met their expectations of how they view the equipment.

much of this just isnt set in stone. My looters are a motley mix of looted weapons and modified shootas with scopes and extended barrels. would that satisfy you?

ultimatly i dont want to see proxies, but im happy with a lenient and logical counts as interpretation.

but in the end we come up against the worst part of Ard boyz, not the wysiwig or lack there of , but the lack of painted army requirements. kits bought that day to round out an army, no primer and parts rapidly glued together.