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nkelsch wrote:You have no valid excuse to call AoBR 'ard boyz. It is a PROXY' and proxies are not allowed at events as it breaks WYSIWYG. Your models would either get a 6+ save or be removed from play for breaking the rules if you called AoBR 'ard boyz.

Could it be argued however, that if one was to field a unit of AoBR ork boys, claiming them to be 'Ard boyz (consistently, not just 'oh by the way these guys are 4+'), they would be legal if there was not a similar unit? (As in only one mob of boys in troops, which is the 'Ard boys mob; the rest of the troops being filled by nobz, grotz, dreddz, etc.)

This isn't me being a git, by the way, I am genuinely curious about this.

S_P

Space_Potato wrote:

nkelsch wrote:You have no valid excuse to call AoBR 'ard boyz. It is a PROXY' and proxies are not allowed at events as it breaks WYSIWYG. Your models would either get a 6+ save or be removed from play for breaking the rules if you called AoBR 'ard boyz.

Could it be argued however, that if one was to field a unit of AoBR ork boys, claiming them to be 'Ard boyz (consistently, not just 'oh by the way these guys are 4+'), they would be legal if there was not a similar unit? (As in only one mob of boys in troops, which is the 'Ard boys mob; the rest of the troops being filled by nobz, grotz, dreddz, etc.)

This isn't me being a git, by the way, I am genuinely curious about this.

S_P

Absolutely space potato. That would be fine. AoBR Big shootas are routinely used as lootas in tournaments as long as there no other big shootas in the army.

I am amazed you people have both time and money to buy many multiples of every model in your collection and proceed to equip each one with a specific set of gear to remain so absolutely "WYSIWYG." If someone points to a guy holding a rifle and tells me "but I upgraded that one with an automatic rifle" I don't flip out.

olympia wrote:

Space_Potato wrote:

nkelsch wrote:You have no valid excuse to call AoBR 'ard boyz. It is a PROXY' and proxies are not allowed at events as it breaks WYSIWYG. Your models would either get a 6+ save or be removed from play for breaking the rules if you called AoBR 'ard boyz.

Could it be argued however, that if one was to field a unit of AoBR ork boys, claiming them to be 'Ard boyz (consistently, not just 'oh by the way these guys are 4+'), they would be legal if there was not a similar unit? (As in only one mob of boys in troops, which is the 'Ard boys mob; the rest of the troops being filled by nobz, grotz, dreddz, etc.)

This isn't me being a git, by the way, I am genuinely curious about this.

S_P

Absolutely space potato. That would be fine. AoBR Big shootas are routinely used as lootas in tournaments as long as there no other big shootas in the army.

Space Potato: First of all, 'it can never be argued' for WYSIWYG. It 'can be argued' for trying to get opponents consent for Proxying models... It is still a proxy.

And I would be curious to see the ork list that has 1 unit of AoBR 'ard boyz and no other regular 6+ ork boyz anywhere in the list. The whole problem with 'ard boyz is usually there are multiple other ork units so the 'all my 6+ are 4+' doesn't at all work. And even if you did take a list like that... It isn't WYSIWYG, it isn't counts as... it is still a Proxy. And if Proxies are not allowed at an event, it is breaking the rules.

You showing up with AoBR as 'ard boyz is as if I showed up with scouts and said, 'I am not using scouts in my list today, they are all terminators.' The rule of 'I am not using them so all X is Y' is Proxying.

Olympia: Really? What event allows BS to Proxy lootas? It is close to impossible to take an ork army without having a legitimate BS somewhere on some unit. *AND* Lootas can legitimately take BS as a weapon option which makes it an evern worse Proxy. Burna boyz as lootas make more sense as burnas can legitimately be not taken in an army and you could say 'all burnas are deffguns'.

But guess what, neither are WYSIWYG, both are proxies and would not be allowed at event that required WYSIWYG. If I paid money to go to an event where WYSIWYG was required, I would complain if someone tried to call stock BS = Lootas. Especially when lootas are easy and inexpensive to make as every imperial vehicle comes with 5 weapon options now and can all become loota conversions.

ImperialTard: It isn't as expensive as you make it out to be. And GW and indy events have been requiring this for 20 years... only in the past 2-3 years have I seen new people enter the hobby and expect to be accepted without paint or WYSIWYG. Some people act like they have never traded bitz with someone before to get WYSIWYG parts in order to do so without buying 12 boxes. Swap meets and ebay can be your friend if you are incapable of having any real ones to trade with. And in this thread, 'ard boyz can be made out of a McDonnalds straw by cutting it up and applying it as armor and jawplates to an Ork. Literally for free and the cost of glue you can dig through the garbage and make 'ard boyz.

nkelsch wrote:

Olympia: Really? What event allows BS to Proxy lootas?

All but the ones you organize evidently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:
It is close to impossible to take an ork army without having a legitimate BS somewhere on some unit.

You are unfamiliar with competitive ork builds. You'll only find a big shoota on a battlewagon and they've got turrets.

olympia wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Olympia: Really? What event allows BS to Proxy lootas?

All but the ones you organize evidently.

I've never allowed BS to be proxied as looters in my tournaments. If you want looters, go buy looters, or take some time converting the big shooters into deffguns.

olympia wrote:

All but the ones you organize evidently.

Official shenanigans. This is 100% not true. I have seen some impressive conversions of AoBR shoota boyz into Lootas, but after they convert, they are clearly deffgunz and can never be BS.

I have not seen events allow stock BS being Deffgunz. Shenanigans.

You are unfamiliar with competitive ork builds. You'll only find a big shoota on a battlewagon and they've got turrets.

So now there is an exception to the 'All X are Y' rule you are making up? If you use BS as BS on a tank, then it needs to be a BS everywhere in your army. BS are clearly identifiable and standardized. And not all BW BS are turrets. The stock model comes with guys on foot with BS. But wait? aren't those Deffguns? What about someone using a BW as a bunker for lootas? Now I have BS gunners and BS-holding lootas embarked as deffgunz? Where does the selfishness and breaking of these made-up exceptions to WYSIWYG end?

And Anyone who uses footslogging shootas frequently takes BS upgrades... Shootas are our best unit and are fantastic on foot in 5th, so I seriously don't see how there is only one competitive build and somehow it doesn't include BS. Orks have tons of ways to play competitively, and BS are used.

It is really easy to turn a BS ork into a Deffgun. It requires effort, conversions and when you are done, that model cannot ever be a BS, it is always going to be a Deffgun.

All of these 'rules' people make up to not follow WYSIWYG and when you ask them to follow THOSE rules they want even more accommodations for them. If they can't even follow their own rules, how clear to their opponent do you think their non-WYSIWYG army is?

mikhaila wrote:

I've never allowed BS to be proxied as looters in my tournaments. If you want looters, go buy looters, or take some time converting the big shooters into deffguns.

If I buy them from you will it help my comp score?

AoBR big shootas 'counts as' lootas more than satisfies the WYSIWYG guidelines on p. 47 if you have no other like models in your army.

The first time I ever played against Necrons I had to ask "what does that gun do" several times and Art told me "that's like a bolter" or "that's like a heavy bolter" and so on. I actually had no idea if he was telling the truth about any of them because I had never seen a Necron codex before. The way people model their figures has to be, to an extent, an act of faith in the opponent's honesty. Look at that gallery of USSR IG figures for instance. The guy was going for a theme. They technically aren't lasguns they are AK-74 or AKR but everyone knows what they represent.

I have problems with basing. The DKOK guardsmen for instance have a missile launcher team mounted on a narrow cavalry base, rather than big round one. I don't think that kind of indescrepancy is fair at all. Because you have Cadians you have to glue two guys to one big base, but if you got some ForgeWorld, you have a smaller base size, thus less chargeable unit? "No" in my book.

olympia wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

I've never allowed BS to be proxied as looters in my tournaments. If you want looters, go buy looters, or take some time converting the big shooters into deffguns.

If I buy them from you will it help my comp score?

AoBR big shootas 'counts as' lootas more than satisfies the WYSIWYG guidelines on p. 47 if you have no other like models in your army.

Wrong. It does not Satisfy WYSIWYG on page 47 and you clearly do not know the difference between Proxies and 'counts as'.

When you use a model or weapon or wargear that has clear and valid rules as something totally different, that is a Proxy.

When you use a model or weapon or wargear that does not have a clear and valid rule as something, that is counts as.

Using a Big Shoota as a Deffgun is a 'PROXY' because there are clear and valid rules for Big shootas and you can even take BS inside loota units which makes that example even more invalid.

Using an Auto cannon or a plasmacannon as a Deffgun is a 'counts as' because there are not clear and valid rules for autocannons or plasmacannons in the ork army.

Deffguns need to be converted. It isn't hard to convert a Deffgun from a BS, but it needs to be done if the event requires WYSIWYG.

olympia wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

I've never allowed BS to be proxied as looters in my tournaments. If you want looters, go buy looters, or take some time converting the big shooters into deffguns.

If I buy them from you will it help my comp score?

Having trouble remembering what the discussion about? Or running out of things to say and you want to confuse the issue?

olympia wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

I've never allowed BS to be proxied as looters in my tournaments. If you want looters, go buy looters, or take some time converting the big shooters into deffguns.

If I buy them from you will it help my comp score?

AoBR big shootas 'counts as' lootas more than satisfies the WYSIWYG guidelines on p. 47 if you have no other like models in your army.

Obviously it will help your comp score if you have the right models. It verges on libel to imply you need to buy them from the organiser.

Good luck arguing with the tournament organiser about his own tournament rules in his own venue.

Kilkrazy wrote:

olympia wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

I've never allowed BS to be proxied as looters in my tournaments. If you want looters, go buy looters, or take some time converting the big shooters into deffguns.

If I buy them from you will it help my comp score?

AoBR big shootas 'counts as' lootas more than satisfies the WYSIWYG guidelines on p. 47 if you have no other like models in your army.

Obviously it will help your comp score if you have the right models. It verges on libel to imply you need to buy them from the organiser.

Good luck arguing with the tournament organiser about his own tournament rules in his own venue.

Obviously i would not attend any event if the organizer failed to observe GWs own standards in this regard.

olympia wrote:
Obviously i would not attend any event if the organizer failed to observe GWs own standards in this regard.

The only one who is failing to observe GWs standards is you.

You would have hated playing 3rd edition orks when your lootas had to be the actual imperial weapon you intended to 'loot'. Deffguns of today are much more forgiving than before... but Big shootas are still not valid models for Deffguns and would not be WYSIWYG no matter how you try to warp your personal selfish interpretation of page 47.

olympia wrote:

Obviously i would not attend any event if the organizer failed to observe GWs own standards in this regard.

In all honesty, i would prefer if you didnt join any events i was at. WYSIWYG is clearly defined in the BRB. Its that plain and simple. Everything must be modeled with the upgrades, weapons, armor, wargear, etc it has. If it isnt modeled it doesnt have it. Most tournaments require WYSIWYG, abide by the rules or dont play. People put time and effort into making their armies 100% WYSIWYG and for you to come in with proxies, then argue that everyone else is wrong and you should be allowed to do this, is just offensive and a waste of legitimate players time.

If you enjoy playing more than you do modeling and painting, play friendly games until you can abide by WYSIWYG. I play with a group of my friends at my house, my house rules state that WYSIWYG is not required. This way we experiment and see what we like, what works and what doesnt. When we all go down to the FLGS we all play WYSIWYG. It makes the game easier and really isnt difficult to do.

I recently just played in my first tournament, i went to painstaking efforts to make entirely sure my army was 100% WYSIWYG. In all honesty it was satisfying to know i would have no issues at this tournament and that me and my opponents could have a good match.

In short, if you dont wanna play by all of the rules thats fine. Just dont play with me.

Since you seem to be demanding 100% WYSIWYG, would you allow someone whose model obviously has a chainsword to say that it was a power weapon? Or would you demand that the organizer remove/disqualify the figure until either the player filed down his piece or changed his army sheet to show the character has a chainsword?
Yes, I realize that in a tournament that if you lose then your life is forfeit but aren't you being a little too much. You're acting like the fate of the world depends on everything being exactly as written (maybe things are hidden from view by how the character is portrayed). It just seems that the personal attacks are over the top. If you don't agree with Olympia that's fine. If you actually meet him at a tournament then ask for a ruling from the TO. But, it seems to me, that the most important rule at any type of tournament is to have fun. They give prizes for the best painted armies. They give prizes to the best Sportsman. As far as I've heard the only prize whiners and complainers get is directions to the door.

You can make a deffgun out of toothpicks and sprue bits if you wanted, it's just a rename for the old Kustom Kombi, which essentially was only required to look like a jumble of mishmashed weapons. You can base it on anything so far as I know.

so what about if i play my unfinished squad of 1k sons (just to soak up some points i was lacking in and they were all i had handy on time) where 4 models havent had arms attached yet and the LFGS doesnt have an area to glue on parts? its relatively obvious that the 1k sons will only have bolters. would you WYSIWYG there and say that they have to kick people in melee and do nothing else?

SwanCo wrote:... where 4 models havent had arms attached yet and the LFGS doesnt have an area to glue on parts?

Do you really need a dedicated 'Parts Attachment Area' in order to put arms on 4 Marines?

I've lost count of the number of times over the years I've wound up standing at a table gluing bits on (most frequently because something's come adrift) as I deploy...

If my models had gotten broken in transit would you force me to repair them before playing? Say a few arms are off here and there through a squad?
(Not directed specifically at insaniak.)

Da Boss wrote:If my models had gotten broken in transit would you force me to repair them before playing?

Force you to? No.
Be a little puzzled if you didn't want to? Absolutely.



In a friendly game, I have no problem with someone using half-assembled models if it's what they have... although I prefer to play with assembled and painted armies. But in a tournament it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect people to have armies that are actually ready to play. If something gets broken on the way, you take a couple of minutes to fix it before your first game... that way, you're not playing with a broken miniature for the entire day.

Hmmm. I guess because I run an ork horde, I usually want to get down to playing ASAP. To me that's the important thing- getting the turns done. It's usual for one or two boyz to get broken on the way to a tournament (I usually have to travel by bus, see) and gluing them takes time I could be using to deploy my assloads of boyz. So generally, I don't bother. It's never occured to me that it could bug someone at all.

To be fair, if one of your slugga boys is missing a pistol arm, nobody's going to care.

But if it's something that is going to make a difference, then it's a courtesy to your opponent's to reattach it, and it's easier on you than having to explain to your opponent what each of the models with missing arms is supposed to be equipped with before every single game.

SwanCo wrote:so what about if i play my unfinished squad of 1k sons (just to soak up some points i was lacking in and they were all i had handy on time) where 4 models havent had arms attached yet and the LFGS doesnt have an area to glue on parts? its relatively obvious that the 1k sons will only have bolters. would you WYSIWYG there and say that they have to kick people in melee and do nothing else?

The assumption in this discussion is for a tournament that has a WYSIWYG requirement, not a pick up game at your FLGS. You obviously wouldn't be bringing unfinished models missing pieces to a tournament.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da Boss wrote:Hmmm. I guess because I run an ork horde, I usually want to get down to playing ASAP. To me that's the important thing- getting the turns done. It's usual for one or two boyz to get broken on the way to a tournament (I usually have to travel by bus, see) and gluing them takes time I could be using to deploy my assloads of boyz. So generally, I don't bother. It's never occured to me that it could bug someone at all.

I'd agree that making sure you get your turns in so your opponent doesn't only get part of a game in round 1 is important. But your suggesting that you run from the bus right into the tournament and begin unpacking? If so, maybe you need to take an earlier bus.)

Not really trying to make fun of you, but the discussion has swerved to where people are making up scenarios that don't have much to do with WYSIWYG.

Broken models? fix them.
Unfinished models? Put them together the night before.
Broken right as you start a game, theres been a horrible glue shortage for weeks and theres absolutely no way to fix the model during the tournament? OFF WITH YOUR HEAD!!!.....

or maybe. "Sure, no ones going to care".

I faced an opponent with "surprisepowerfistsyndrome" once, at a tournament. It was alright, because in all fairness, he probably told me beforehand, I had just forgotten. As long as the size of the model doesn't change, and any models being proxied aren't also something else in their list, I am fine with it.

I played the manager at a GW store once who swore up and down that everything was WYSIWYG whenever I asked him what equipment a model had (We wouldn't actually tell me what the equipment was).

I get into combat with his commander that is modeled with a chainsword and all of a sudden, he's armed with a power weapon...Go figure.

skyth wrote:I get into combat with his commander that is modeled with a chainsword and all of a sudden, he's armed with a power weapon...Go figure.

I have had it argued (by someone who was completely serious) in the past that, because a power weapon is a type of close combat weapon, any sort of close combat weapon is sufficient to represent it...

If it's the only chainswords in the army (probably only Catachan armies apply here)? Sure. I'm not sure how you could really be confused by what a HQ IC has, though - there's not exactly a surplus of them and they're right at the top of the roster.

mikhaila wrote:

SwanCo wrote:so what about if i play my unfinished squad of 1k sons (just to soak up some points i was lacking in and they were all i had handy on time) where 4 models havent had arms attached yet and the LFGS doesnt have an area to glue on parts? its relatively obvious that the 1k sons will only have bolters. would you WYSIWYG there and say that they have to kick people in melee and do nothing else?

The assumption in this discussion is for a tournament that has a WYSIWYG requirement, not a pick up game at your FLGS. You obviously wouldn't be bringing unfinished models missing pieces to a tournament.

true, it was just a friendly game but still.

And i ran outta glue that morning fixing a defiler that was broken when knocked off a table in a previous game

I think it should be the players responsibility to build a decent and presentable force for a tournament: If you wanna go, be ready for it. I've experienced friends turning melta's into storm bolters, which, coupled with a sea of tactical marines made for a somewhat unpleasant game.