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Wraithsword plunges through Dreadnought Sarcophagus just as the Dread's DCCW Shatters the Wraithlord's Spiritstone, killing them both instantly and simultaneously.

/thread

The WL is 'taller' not bigger cut those basketball player legs down a bit and lets play!
and critically damage...sounds good to me, people die from critical injuries, therefore you just said that a dreadnought could critically injure therefore kill a WL!


BOOOYA!

If Wraithbone is that strong surely Eldar Vehicles would have better Armour? Don't the eldar grow everything out of Wraithbone? It's strong, but an Ironclad Dread with Siege Drill would smash it like a freight train hitting a glass wall at 60mph. WL Shrapnel would be raining down on everyone.

Unreal Toast wrote:Need i remind you of Khiraen Goldhelm against Fulgrim..... and im pretty sure Fulgrim can take down a dread with ease

Your right to come back to this, as everyone seems to be ignoring it.

Does everyone who thinks the dread would top a wraithlord think a dread could trouble a primarch?

Unreal Toast wrote:

nerdfest09 wrote:Nope the dread would have the strength easy! if you actually think about the size of the dreadnought in reality! the immense power the hydrolics could produce! look at a car crusher it crushes cars easy like butter, a dread would be bigger more advanced technically and built for combat so bye bye WL


Automatically Appended Next Post:
:-) and hello ongoing argument!

You just voided your own arguement because the WL is bigger and more advanced in tech then the dread......so i think youl find that dread at most would critically damage the wraithlord, but only in a dream does it have the means to kill one.

The WL is not bigger, only taller. try taking an old metal WL in one hand and an old metal dread in another and see which is heavier. when doing so keep in mind that dread is partially hollow. Also when it comes to warmachines eldar tech could not be said to be more advanced; simply different.

Unreal Toast wrote:Need i remind you of Khiraen Goldhelm against Fulgrim..... and im pretty sure Fulgrim can take down a dread with ease

Based on what? Did you read a story about fulgrim beating up a dreadnought?
Be careful you're starting to sound like an eldar fanboi..

No, as if a Dread could take on a Primarch. Its just another case of silly fluff not holding with the reality of a table top war game and then people saying "Well it must be able to, because it says so in my Book".
Its like the Jewish Claim to Palestine "Well this land must be ours because it says so in this really old dusty book called the Bible/Torah/whatever".

So do we go by the fluff or the game? Since the wraithlord is more powerfull in the game also.

What exactly can you base your argument on if the attitude of: "Well it must be able to, because it says so in my Book" is being silly.

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

Unreal Toast wrote:Need i remind you of Khiraen Goldhelm against Fulgrim..... and im pretty sure Fulgrim can take down a dread with ease

Based on what? Did you read a story about fulgrim beating up a dreadnought?
Be careful you're starting to sound like an eldar fanboi..

lexicanum wrote:With Fulgrim throwing an enraged attack on Eldrad with his sword, as the primarch was insulted by the implications of Eldrad concerning his brother Horus, Khiraen sprung into action parrying the blow for Eldrad and dueling Fulgrim himself. The battle was fierce and Khiraen managed to personally kill the entire contingent of the vaunted Phoenix Guard, as well as deliver a fierce blow on the primarch's chest with his power fist. However, the primarch was helped by the demonic properties of his Laeran blade and managed to cripple the wraithlord. Afterwards, still controlled by his blade, Fulgrim broke the golden sarcophagus that contained Khiraen's soulstone and delivered the soul of the ancient warrior to be devoured by the Great Enemy of the Eldar race, Slaanesh.

ah hem...

Artistic license in the Books makes a mockery of the table top game. For example how can a Primarch like Fulgrim struggle to kill a WraithLord. An Avatar of Khaine I could understand but a WraithLord.

By extrapilation of your argument that a WL nearly killed a Primarch, therefore if a Dread could kill a WL then by rights a Dread could kill a Primarch.

This idea is nonsense and comes around because of poorly written fluff, and because people base alot of crazy ideas on fluff which has poor continuity over the decades.

mwnciboo wrote:No, as if a Dread could take on a Primarch. Its just another case of silly fluff not holding with the reality of a table top war game and then people saying "Well it must be able to, because it says so in my Book".
Its like the Jewish Claim to Palestine "Well this land must be ours because it says so in this really old dusty book called the Bible/Torah/whatever".

Kind of a random reference for this thread isn't it?
And just for the record richard dawkins is a highly educated idiot.

mwnciboo wrote:Artistic license in the Books makes a mockery of the table top game. For example how can a Primarch like Fulgrim struggle to kill a WraithLord. An Avatar of Khaine I could understand but a WraithLord.

By extrapilation of your argument that a WL nearly killed a Primarch, therefore if a Dread could kill a WL then by rights a Dread could kill a Primarch.

This idea is nonsense and comes around because of poorly written fluff, and because people base alot of crazy ideas on fluff which has poor continuity over the decades.

In my opinion, if the fluff stuck to the game. The fluff would be terrible. The game is (intended at least) written to stop one force being overly powerfull. That kind of restricts things in terms of background.

+ if it's about continuity then the rules are surely a far worse measure than the fluff. They change explicitly every four or five years.

mwnciboo wrote:Artistic license in the Books makes a mockery of the table top game. For example how can a Primarch like Fulgrim struggle to kill a WraithLord. An Avatar of Khaine I could understand but a WraithLord.

By extrapilation of your argument that a WL nearly killed a Primarch, therefore if a Dread could kill a WL then by rights a Dread could kill a Primarch.

This idea is nonsense and comes around because of poorly written fluff, and because people base alot of crazy ideas on fluff which has poor continuity over the decades.

I don't know, I think Dreadnoughts would be tough for a primarch to kill too.

Yep they fought, hard so it seems but none of us can really say what's what, even all our mma and ufc fighters have tough battles no matter if they're the champ or not! i don't think people are saying that a dreadnought or a WL would so seriously whoop each other so quick they wouldn't get to retaliate? they would fight, blow for blow or whatever they'd do, if WL were that tough why not see more of them in fluff or on the table?

And yeah o.k maybe if we're talking about old metal mini's then we've got an argument....but we're not, we're grown men discussing if in real life a giant soul driven wraithlord would beat the snot out of a giant mechanical behemoth in the far distant future where there is only war! see it's a completely valid argument!

Klawz wrote:

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

Unreal Toast wrote:Need i remind you of Khiraen Goldhelm against Fulgrim..... and im pretty sure Fulgrim can take down a dread with ease

Based on what? Did you read a story about fulgrim beating up a dreadnought?
Be careful you're starting to sound like an eldar fanboi..

lexicanum wrote:With Fulgrim throwing an enraged attack on Eldrad with his sword, as the primarch was insulted by the implications of Eldrad concerning his brother Horus, Khiraen sprung into action parrying the blow for Eldrad and dueling Fulgrim himself. The battle was fierce and Khiraen managed to personally kill the entire contingent of the vaunted Phoenix Guard, as well as deliver a fierce blow on the primarch's chest with his power fist. However, the primarch was helped by the demonic properties of his Laeran blade and managed to cripple the wraithlord. Afterwards, still controlled by his blade, Fulgrim broke the golden sarcophagus that contained Khiraen's soulstone and delivered the soul of the ancient warrior to be devoured by the Great Enemy of the Eldar race, Slaanesh.

ah hem...

Were the phoenix guard packing any thing that could hurt a wraithlord? UM honor guard couldn't. And they would try even if they couldn't if they felt fulgrim was danger.

Agreed the fluff would be terrible, that said some on the antics you read about make me laugh when my Space Marine Captain gets flattened by a Battlecannon (no BL +2 inv HH Save).
The Canon really should remain for continuity, rules change I can live with that, but the number of times certain things have changed. But then this is dynamic and evolving hobby.
I would say in that Fulgrim was trying to fight Eldrad and a WL that must count for something

nerdfest09 wrote:

And yeah o.k maybe if we're talking about old metal mini's then we've got an argument....but we're not, we're grown men discussing if in real life a giant soul driven wraithlord would beat the snot out of a giant mechanical behemoth in the far distant future where there is only war! see it's a completely valid argument!

The point of discussing the old metal minis was to point out that dreads are in fact "bigger" just shorter. Pay attention.

You do realise there is a tongue planted firmly in my cheek through all of this? :-)

Sorry I thought you were referring to an earlier post of mine...I feel a bit sheepish now.








*bahh

I was wondering who was going to crack 1st. When all is said and done, if someone could arrange a 40K deathmatch between a Dreadnought and a Wraithlord, I would probably give my left nut to watch it.

Nerdfest09 I love those "Brothers of Sand" beautiful and unusual paint scheme. Really original, i love Home brew SM.

nerdfest09 wrote:The WL is 'taller' not bigger cut those basketball player legs down a bit and lets play!
and critically damage...sounds good to me, people die from critical injuries, therefore you just said that a dreadnought could critically injure therefore kill a WL!


BOOOYA!

No once again you twist the words, critical as in seriously hurt or damage, its a monstrous creature made of one of the hardest materials in 40K and therefore wont die from loss of blood or a serious injury, its not human or technically alive.

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

Unreal Toast wrote:

nerdfest09 wrote:Nope the dread would have the strength easy! if you actually think about the size of the dreadnought in reality! the immense power the hydrolics could produce! look at a car crusher it crushes cars easy like butter, a dread would be bigger more advanced technically and built for combat so bye bye WL


Automatically Appended Next Post:
:-) and hello ongoing argument!

You just voided your own arguement because the WL is bigger and more advanced in tech then the dread......so i think youl find that dread at most would critically damage the wraithlord, but only in a dream does it have the means to kill one.

The WL is not bigger, only taller. try taking an old metal WL in one hand and an old metal dread in another and see which is heavier. when doing so keep in mind that dread is partially hollow. Also when it comes to warmachines eldar tech could not be said to be more advanced; simply different.

Unreal Toast wrote:Need i remind you of Khiraen Goldhelm against Fulgrim..... and im pretty sure Fulgrim can take down a dread with ease

Based on what? Did you read a story about fulgrim beating up a dreadnought?
Be careful you're starting to sound like an eldar fanboi..

Ok well since Fulgrim beat a wraithlord, never mind that this wraithlord is near acient and is one of the Ulthwe council members, id say he could handle a dreadnaught with ease, especially since he would know more about a dreadnaughts weakness and strengths.

Eldar fanboy ? it doesnt take a fanboy to point out the facts :/


Oh and another thing, Eldar tech IS far more advanced then Space Marine tech, that much is very commonly known :/

Unreal Toast wrote:

Ok well since Fulgrim beat a wraithlord, never mind that this wraithlord is near acient and is one of the Ulthwe council members, id say he could handle a dreadnaught with ease, especially since he would know more about a dreadnaughts weakness and strengths.

Eldar fanboy ? it doesnt take a fanboy to point out the facts :/

Pointing out that he would know a dreads weaknesses doesn't help your case.

And no, it doesn't take a fanboy to point out the facts but you haven't. all you've presented is conjecture.

Unreal Toast wrote:Oh and another thing, Eldar tech IS far more advanced then Space Marine tech, that much is very commonly known :/

I said eldar warmachines are not more advanced than imperials. Get it right. Take a look at eldar weapons vs Imp weapons; they are either nearly identical or in some ways slightly worse. Take the brightlance Vs the lascannon; brightlances are actually worse at penetrating armor of 12 or less and are only better against armor 14.
there are other examples but I'm sure someone else can point them out if you can't see them.

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

Unreal Toast wrote:

Ok well since Fulgrim beat a wraithlord, never mind that this wraithlord is near acient and is one of the Ulthwe council members, id say he could handle a dreadnaught with ease, especially since he would know more about a dreadnaughts weakness and strengths.

Eldar fanboy ? it doesnt take a fanboy to point out the facts :/

Pointing out that he would know a dreads weaknesses doesn't help your case.

And no, it doesn't take a fanboy to point out the facts but you haven't. all you've presented is conjecture.

Unreal Toast wrote:Oh and another thing, Eldar tech IS far more advanced then Space Marine tech, that much is very commonly known :/

I said eldar warmachines are not more advanced than imperials. Get it right. Take a look at eldar weapons vs Imp weapons; they are either nearly identical or in some ways slightly worse. Take the brightlance Vs the lascannon; brightlances are actually worse at penetrating armor of 12 or less and are only better against armor 14.
there are other examples but I'm sure someone else can point them out if you can't see them.

Ok well first of all, Fulgrim is a primach and Khiraen is a wraithlord, Khiraen nearly killed a primach and that much is a fact, it is directly written in the novel. now as far as im concerned a Primach can kill a dreadnaught without to much trouble. so by this information it is enough to assume that a wraithlord is tougher then a dreadnaught.

Second of all, it is a fact that the wraithlord is armed with more weapons then a dreadnaught excluding the iron clad which has around the same therefore the wraithlord wont be outgunned by the dreadnaught.

Third of all The wraithlord is far more flexable and faster then a dreadnaught could ever hope to be, yet another fact.

And lastly the dreadnaughts centre of ballence is flawed due to the larger upper half of the body in proportion to the bottom meaning that if it looses its ballence and falls, it cant get back up, however if a wraithlord falls, it can get back up. again due to the visable designs of both 'machines' this is fact.

You are also constantly refering to table top game rules which has no relevance to this thread as if you had read my first post you would notic the words realistic meaning of the table top :/

So please save your armour values as they of no importance when were discussing the outcome should they be real.

My money is on the Wraithlord. It's so much faster, and also, Wraithbone would tear through the metal like a chainsword through human flesh. Although, the dreadnought, if it got just one swing in, would already have the upper hand, because of the power fist/clamp/hand.

Unreal Toast wrote:

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

Unreal Toast wrote:

Ok well since Fulgrim beat a wraithlord, never mind that this wraithlord is near acient and is one of the Ulthwe council members, id say he could handle a dreadnaught with ease, especially since he would know more about a dreadnaughts weakness and strengths.

Eldar fanboy ? it doesnt take a fanboy to point out the facts :/

Pointing out that he would know a dreads weaknesses doesn't help your case.

And no, it doesn't take a fanboy to point out the facts but you haven't. all you've presented is conjecture.

Unreal Toast wrote:Oh and another thing, Eldar tech IS far more advanced then Space Marine tech, that much is very commonly known :/

I said eldar warmachines are not more advanced than imperials. Get it right. Take a look at eldar weapons vs Imp weapons; they are either nearly identical or in some ways slightly worse. Take the brightlance Vs the lascannon; brightlances are actually worse at penetrating armor of 12 or less and are only better against armor 14.
there are other examples but I'm sure someone else can point them out if you can't see them.

Ok well first of all, Fulgrim is a primach and Khiraen is a wraithlord, Khiraen nearly killed a primach and that much is a fact, it is directly written in the novel. now as far as im concerned a Primach can kill a dreadnaught without to much trouble. so by this information it is enough to assume that a wraithlord is tougher then a dreadnaught.

Second of all, it is a fact that the wraithlord is armed with more weapons then a dreadnaught excluding the iron clad which has around the same therefore the wraithlord wont be outgunned by the dreadnaught.

Third of all The wraithlord is far more flexable and faster then a dreadnaught could ever hope to be, yet another fact.

And lastly the dreadnaughts centre of ballence is flawed due to the larger upper half of the body in proportion to the bottom meaning that if it looses its ballence and falls, it cant get back up, however if a wraithlord falls, it can get back up. again due to the visable designs of both 'machines' this is fact.

You are also constantly refering to table top game rules which has no relevance to this thread as if you had read my first post you would notic the words realistic meaning of the table top :/

So please save your armour values as they of no importance when were discussing the outcome should they be real.

Is there any novel of a Primarch killing a dreadnought?

Cheesecat wrote:

Unreal Toast wrote:

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

Unreal Toast wrote:

Ok well since Fulgrim beat a wraithlord, never mind that this wraithlord is near acient and is one of the Ulthwe council members, id say he could handle a dreadnaught with ease, especially since he would know more about a dreadnaughts weakness and strengths.

Eldar fanboy ? it doesnt take a fanboy to point out the facts :/

Pointing out that he would know a dreads weaknesses doesn't help your case.

And no, it doesn't take a fanboy to point out the facts but you haven't. all you've presented is conjecture.

Unreal Toast wrote:Oh and another thing, Eldar tech IS far more advanced then Space Marine tech, that much is very commonly known :/

I said eldar warmachines are not more advanced than imperials. Get it right. Take a look at eldar weapons vs Imp weapons; they are either nearly identical or in some ways slightly worse. Take the brightlance Vs the lascannon; brightlances are actually worse at penetrating armor of 12 or less and are only better against armor 14.
there are other examples but I'm sure someone else can point them out if you can't see them.

Ok well first of all, Fulgrim is a primach and Khiraen is a wraithlord, Khiraen nearly killed a primach and that much is a fact, it is directly written in the novel. now as far as im concerned a Primach can kill a dreadnaught without to much trouble. so by this information it is enough to assume that a wraithlord is tougher then a dreadnaught.

Second of all, it is a fact that the wraithlord is armed with more weapons then a dreadnaught excluding the iron clad which has around the same therefore the wraithlord wont be outgunned by the dreadnaught.

Third of all The wraithlord is far more flexable and faster then a dreadnaught could ever hope to be, yet another fact.

And lastly the dreadnaughts centre of ballence is flawed due to the larger upper half of the body in proportion to the bottom meaning that if it looses its ballence and falls, it cant get back up, however if a wraithlord falls, it can get back up. again due to the visable designs of both 'machines' this is fact.

You are also constantly refering to table top game rules which has no relevance to this thread as if you had read my first post you would notic the words realistic meaning of the table top :/

So please save your armour values as they of no importance when were discussing the outcome should they be real.

Is there any novel of a Primarch killing a dreadnought?

Nope. well atleast ive never read that its happened :/

But you see the point im trying to make, you can kinda gage the outcome anyway, i mean come on its a primarch !

Cheesecat wrote:

Unreal Toast wrote:

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

Unreal Toast wrote:

Ok well since Fulgrim beat a wraithlord, never mind that this wraithlord is near acient and is one of the Ulthwe council members, id say he could handle a dreadnaught with ease, especially since he would know more about a dreadnaughts weakness and strengths.

Eldar fanboy ? it doesnt take a fanboy to point out the facts :/

Pointing out that he would know a dreads weaknesses doesn't help your case.

And no, it doesn't take a fanboy to point out the facts but you haven't. all you've presented is conjecture.

Unreal Toast wrote:Oh and another thing, Eldar tech IS far more advanced then Space Marine tech, that much is very commonly known :/

I said eldar warmachines are not more advanced than imperials. Get it right. Take a look at eldar weapons vs Imp weapons; they are either nearly identical or in some ways slightly worse. Take the brightlance Vs the lascannon; brightlances are actually worse at penetrating armor of 12 or less and are only better against armor 14.
there are other examples but I'm sure someone else can point them out if you can't see them.

Ok well first of all, Fulgrim is a primach and Khiraen is a wraithlord, Khiraen nearly killed a primach and that much is a fact, it is directly written in the novel. now as far as im concerned a Primach can kill a dreadnaught without to much trouble. so by this information it is enough to assume that a wraithlord is tougher then a dreadnaught.

Second of all, it is a fact that the wraithlord is armed with more weapons then a dreadnaught excluding the iron clad which has around the same therefore the wraithlord wont be outgunned by the dreadnaught.

Third of all The wraithlord is far more flexable and faster then a dreadnaught could ever hope to be, yet another fact.

And lastly the dreadnaughts centre of ballence is flawed due to the larger upper half of the body in proportion to the bottom meaning that if it looses its ballence and falls, it cant get back up, however if a wraithlord falls, it can get back up. again due to the visable designs of both 'machines' this is fact.

You are also constantly refering to table top game rules which has no relevance to this thread as if you had read my first post you would notic the words realistic meaning of the table top :/

So please save your armour values as they of no importance when were discussing the outcome should they be real.

Is there any novel of a Primarch killing a dreadnought?

Well tere is a novel with a marine destroying a Dreadnaught, and a primarch killing a marine. Any good?

whatwhat wrote:

Cheesecat wrote:

Unreal Toast wrote:

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

Unreal Toast wrote:

Ok well since Fulgrim beat a wraithlord, never mind that this wraithlord is near acient and is one of the Ulthwe council members, id say he could handle a dreadnaught with ease, especially since he would know more about a dreadnaughts weakness and strengths.

Eldar fanboy ? it doesnt take a fanboy to point out the facts :/

Pointing out that he would know a dreads weaknesses doesn't help your case.

And no, it doesn't take a fanboy to point out the facts but you haven't. all you've presented is conjecture.

Unreal Toast wrote:Oh and another thing, Eldar tech IS far more advanced then Space Marine tech, that much is very commonly known :/

I said eldar warmachines are not more advanced than imperials. Get it right. Take a look at eldar weapons vs Imp weapons; they are either nearly identical or in some ways slightly worse. Take the brightlance Vs the lascannon; brightlances are actually worse at penetrating armor of 12 or less and are only better against armor 14.
there are other examples but I'm sure someone else can point them out if you can't see them.

Ok well first of all, Fulgrim is a primach and Khiraen is a wraithlord, Khiraen nearly killed a primach and that much is a fact, it is directly written in the novel. now as far as im concerned a Primach can kill a dreadnaught without to much trouble. so by this information it is enough to assume that a wraithlord is tougher then a dreadnaught.

Second of all, it is a fact that the wraithlord is armed with more weapons then a dreadnaught excluding the iron clad which has around the same therefore the wraithlord wont be outgunned by the dreadnaught.

Third of all The wraithlord is far more flexable and faster then a dreadnaught could ever hope to be, yet another fact.

And lastly the dreadnaughts centre of ballence is flawed due to the larger upper half of the body in proportion to the bottom meaning that if it looses its ballence and falls, it cant get back up, however if a wraithlord falls, it can get back up. again due to the visable designs of both 'machines' this is fact.

You are also constantly refering to table top game rules which has no relevance to this thread as if you had read my first post you would notic the words realistic meaning of the table top :/

So please save your armour values as they of no importance when were discussing the outcome should they be real.

Is there any novel of a Primarch killing a dreadnought?

Well tere is a novel with a marine destroying a Dreadnaught, and a primarch killing a marine. Any good?

Plus, in the third Blood Angels novel (Red Thirst/Red Fury I think it's called) a Dreadnought from a Blood Angels Successor Chapter gets beaten up by a mutated Blood Angel clone..beast..thingie. If I remember rightly, it actually tears out the corpse from the Dreadnought's sarcophagus and then eats it.

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

Unreal Toast wrote:

Ok well since Fulgrim beat a wraithlord, never mind that this wraithlord is near acient and is one of the Ulthwe council members, id say he could handle a dreadnaught with ease, especially since he would know more about a dreadnaughts weakness and strengths.

Eldar fanboy ? it doesnt take a fanboy to point out the facts :/

Pointing out that he would know a dreads weaknesses doesn't help your case.

And no, it doesn't take a fanboy to point out the facts but you haven't. all you've presented is conjecture.

Unreal Toast wrote:Oh and another thing, Eldar tech IS far more advanced then Space Marine tech, that much is very commonly known :/

I said eldar warmachines are not more advanced than imperials. Get it right. Take a look at eldar weapons vs Imp weapons; they are either nearly identical or in some ways slightly worse. Take the brightlance Vs the lascannon; brightlances are actually worse at penetrating armor of 12 or less and are only better against armor 14.
there are other examples but I'm sure someone else can point them out if you can't see them.

Eldar technology is far beyond standard imperial tech, i mean, that's basic 40k 101

Retribution wrote:Eldar technology is far beyond standard imperial tech, i mean, that's basic 40k 101

I thought it was Space Marines are never, ever, EVA allowed to lose, even in debates about who's Big Expensive Robot Toy could beat the other one up.

whatwhat wrote:Fluff wise. A Dreadnought is a machine controlled by a dead space marine. A wraithlord is a thousand year old warrior with wraithbone skin who not only towers over a dread but is far more agile. Whereas a dreadnought is a gun turret/power fist on clunky metal legs.

Fulgrim even had trouble defeating a wraithlord.

Don't forget though that not every dead marine gets put into a dreadnought, only those who have been particularly heroic are so if you'd like they are both hero's of their kinds and some dreads are likely a thousand years old themselves. If I have my fluff right some are several millenia old even.