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Ah that bit about onsluaght with the T-Fex is genius, I hadn't thought about that.

Here's a little tip form my limited experience.

I have been playing a really wonky list because it is essentially all the models I have (this is my newest army and I am expanding it slowly).

One thing I have been using to great effect is a unit of 20+ basic gants with an attached Prime.

The unit, while somewhat expensive (200-230) is unmovable from objectives. With that many fearless wounds with a covers save, it will take a massive effort or specialized weapons to chew through it. The prime also makes the unit scary in combat as with intelligent positioning of him, you can keep him safe from power weapons and let him carve up enemy units with his LW/BS.

I plop that unit down on an objective or spread it out over two objectives and laugh as my opponent attempts to move them. With other threats attacking, they sink in the priority list and tend not to draw any fire until it's too late.

Even against units like Dreads I find the unit to last. Again, positioning the Prime well means that he will be safe from the Dread. The dread will eat a few gants a turn, and pulling the right models from the combat ensures that it will be a very long time before the prime gets into B2B.

Is it the most competitive build out? Probably not, but it works very well and it is more resilient than a Tervigon for objective holding, although it does lack the ability to use onslaught or catalyst.

I would also like to add in that Ymgarls have been game winners for me every time, and that a giant unit of Stealers has been just incredibly powerful for me as others have said. They are my hammer unit in every game I have used them.


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As for Harpies, I have not used them myself, but Dave-Fay was talking about a list using three of them and then maxing out large blast templates in the rest of the army. You can put out a stunning amount of large blasts. The Harpies are also good assaulters as they actually have grenades and can hunt down units like Long Fangs, Lootas, etc.

I think they definitely have a place in a competitive list.

I've seen that gaunt tactic employed before to great success. Never tried it myself but I might have to. Do you give yor gaunts any up grades reece?

Nope. I currently run a unit of 25 or 26 with a Prime with LW/BS, Death spitter and t.sacs.

It has been brilliant every game. For straight objective camping, they are so hard to kill.

I have had that unit flamed, assaulted by full strength GKT squad (the prime killed 4, the Gants handled the rest) and still, they always end up holding at least one objective.

The only time the unit got wiped was when a Defiler got into combat with them. The large amount of attacks eventually wore them down to nothing. But still, even then, they tied up the Defiler for the entire game.

Mostly, opponents just ignore the unit as it really isn't a threat. With a unit of 20 Stealers in their face with a bunch of big nasties coming up behind them, firepower tends to go elsewhere.

In KP missions the unit is still nice as no one ever shoots at it! Plus it serves as a great tarpit.

Until i play my bugs more, with a wider variety of units, I can't really say if I think they are going into my tournament list, but for now I love them.

In my unorothodox conquest to come up with a tyranid list that goes against the grain and is highly unexpected as an army that will be competitive here's my latest concoction. Ideas inspired by Reecius Janthkin and 40kenthuiast (with a bit of originality from myself to of course)

Anywho heres what I'm thinking for 2000

HQ
Prime- lash whip bonesword 110 (i think)

prime- lash whip bonesword 110 (i think)

Elites
2 Zoanthropes 120
Pod 40

2 Zoanthropes 120
Pod 40

Troops
20 gaunts- devourers 200

20 gaunts- devourers 200

20 genestealers 280

5 genestealers 70

5 genestealers 70

Fast
9 Raveners- rending claws 315

9 Raveners- rending claws 315

That's all I got. (1990) I think

Idea being that the stealers infiltrate up and pose a major turn 2 threat along with the 18 raveners. In fact so much of a threat that the enemy wont be able to handle it. The 2 smaller stealer squads outflank to pop a tank harass and capture objectives. The zoans come in and take care of land raiders. If the enemy has credible amounts of S8+ to scare my raveners my prime will join them to help out instead of the gaunts. Also did I mention the gaunts pump out the retardedness that is 120 S4 shots a turn, on average that equals 10 unsaved wounds on MEQ's. That's something.

I think that list needs either more fodder units up front or more anti-mech shooting.

I've used similar setups (2 units of 9 raveners, at least), and while they can face beat they need to be mixed in with gaunts/gargoyles to hit the fist guys and control the combat resolution.

It looks to me like you are leading with stealers and gargoyles, which will at best pop the enemies rhinos and then be setup to receive flamer/bolter love, then have to charge over the wrecks and go last.

My usual plan is to use a Tyrannofex + my deep striking units to open up their transports, same as you have going on here with the Zoe's, but the Tfex works from round 1 on, and I use spawned gaunts, gargoyles and the Parasite to hold off the enemy until they are outside their vehicles, so that they can be engaged relatively evenly by the superior Tyrannid codex assault troops.

I love those Devogants. They put out so much firepower. And if anything Yermon, I need to be taking notes from you. You have far more experience under your belt with bugs than me.

Hmm, 9 Ravenors. I never thought to run a max squad. I am always thinking missile spam lists will just rock them.

Man, running the math on that, that is a serious beat down, though. 35 hits roughly against WS4. That nets you about 6 rends, 12 wounds against T4. Which against MEQ's is another 4 dead.

That guts a squad.

Plus with unit on big bases that fast you can pretty easily pull off multiple assaults. Rending makes them a threat against vehicles, too.

Damn, now that has me thinking. That is a pretty savage unit and baring any fists, even charging into cover they have the wounds to really soak some hits and still deliver a killing blow.

I'll have to try that, even in proxy. That is pretty brutal.

Has anyone used Shrikes? Looking at the numbers, equipped with t.sacs, LW/BS they are mobile, synapse and can assault units in cover and still hit incredibly hard. The hefty price tag is a bit worrisome though. I was curious if anyone had tried them out yet as they look solid for at least friendly play.

I also really like that tactic of using a small unit of steelers with a broodlord. That sounds like a really solid combo. Currently I am in love with my giant steeler unit as Janthkin convinced me to run them. They have just been bringing the absolute pain in every game.

@40kenthusiast- Yeah I agree about the pop transports then what kind of deal. The idea is that basically the raveners cant really die unless they are out of cover and even then 27 wounds on MEQ's are not easy to pull off or missile spam. But yes their biggest threat is power fists. By far. I;m hoping the smaller stealer squads can also help in the fashion by locking up the fist so the raveners are free to eat them up.

I'd also really like some hive guard but I can't justify the switch since as it is my list only has 4 models in it that can kill land raiders. I was thinking that infiltrating the stealers to die but take the majority of the fire power. Then 1 group of raveners can grab a huge multi charge and knock out as many transports as possible. They die to the enemy rebutle but the now foot slogging army is slammed with 9 more raveners and the gaunts. Just what I was thinking. Also with this kind of army I can afford to play the waiting game a bit.

@Reece- The raveners are a unit that no one really considers or if they do dont have the balls to test but it works fairl well. Just watch for fists those mess them up.

Shrikes are just too expensive for being able to be insta killed.

Yeah, the one issue I have with Ravs is that they get a beatdown from some of the PF/PK/TH-equipped uberunits. Even after the fists do their damage, the combo of combat res and a weak armor save really does a number on them.

But I still like Ravs. I wonder if the price of the models prevents more people from fielding them? Plus figure that even many veteran Tyranid players only owned a few to be used as singles in FA slots.

One thing to consider about Raveners is that they have a 12" charge range. They're very unlikely to shoot themselves out of a charge, so it's important that they shoot whatever they're charging to thin the herd a bit so that they can use their multiple attacks to kill Power Fists and the like before they act.

I gotta admit I have two things stopping me from buying the Ravener models, and the first is most definitely price.

If I can scale this down to 1850 and I like how the tesing goes I think I'll bring it to mechanicon. Now the hard part is finding time to test between school and keeping my girlfriend happy

It seems like Gargoyles would be more efficient than Ravs. The only reason I can really see taking Ravs is because of their slightly greater range and rending, which allows them to hurt vehicles.

Gargoyles are more resilient (due to lack of susceptibility to instant death and slightly higher number of wounds in a full strength squad), cheaper, can go onto the second level+ of buildings, and will kill just as much stuff in combat against most opponents.

Good points but the power of raveners comes from their ability to hurt vehicles IMO. Imagine an IG gunline or razorspam wolves/BA. Barely moving their army then getting slammed by a horde of raveners and losing 4- 5 tanks in one turn. Also ravs have I5 naturally so will be able to really deal with fiends and the new coming dark eldar.

True. But how many tanks can Ravs pop?

Hmm, 9 is 45 attacks, hit with 23, reroll 1's nets you another 4 hits, so 27.

That gives you 4.5 rends, lets call it 5. That is rounding everything up.

So, with 5 pens on rear armor 10, that should net you two dead tanks. Assuming all rends occurred on a different tank (which is pretty unlikely) you could expect to take out two, immobilize one, and stun 2.

Not bad, actually. However, that may not be so easy to pull off in practice.

I definitely see there use though, I wrote them off as a garbage unit at first glance, but now they definitely seem appealing.

gorgon wrote:But I still like Ravs. I wonder if the price of the models prevents more people from fielding them? Plus figure that even many veteran Tyranid players only owned a few to be used as singles in FA slots.

I had three metal ones from 4th edition. Never ran them in a game. I bought 3 boxes of the new plastic ones and I've run them in broods of 6, 7 or 9. Mostly without as much success as I would like. The metal ones with 2 pairs of talons still haven't seen the table.

Nurglitch wrote:I gotta admit I have two things stopping me from buying the Ravener models, and the first is most definitely price.

Yes, they are expensive in absolute terms, but they are cheaper than they used to be. 3 metal ones without rending claws were $51 retail. Now they're 44.50 for 3 and include rending claws and the thorax weapons. So you're saving $6.50 and getting better models.

Sure, but I didn't mention the other thing that's stopping me from getting a unit of Raveners, and that's the aesthetics.

I've used Raveners and Gargoyles extensively, and I don't think they are anything like each other. The closest equivalent to a gargoyle is a warrior, while the raveners don't really have any units that are much like them (fighting warriors are the closest, and even they are very different).

They work really well together, but they are dramatically different in their engagement profiles.

The biggest surprise I've had, and I've played a lot of games with my Nids, with using 2 units of maxed raveners is how hard it is not to go through terrain. 12" and full following of the assault rules makes it very difficult indeed to avoid terrain, and i1 and i5 are very different. I frequently find myself using gaunts/gargoyles to wall the raveners off from terrain, silly but effective.

Um thumb-up and subscription. If anyone could tell me how to subscribe a post without replying it then thanks a lot.

There's a link in the bottom left corner of the page after you scroll all the way down that says "subscribe".

Nurglitch wrote:Sure, but I didn't mention the other thing that's stopping me from getting a unit of Raveners, and that's the aesthetics.

Is the overall aesthetic or just the new plastic models you don't like? I like the aesthetic and that's why I'm trying to find ways to use them effectively. I've considered running them as my counts as CC warriors because I like the models more than the warriors.

Arschbombe:

They're nice models, but my army is about the Termagant aesthetic, so forelegs carry a gun, midlegs are scything talons cut for a quadrapedal stance, and the hindlegs are hindlegs.

How do warriors look when built that way?

Kind of like the attached picture: Sorry about the quality.

Hello! i'm not new in dakka dakka forums but anyway i've been following this threat since the begining! I've learned a couple of things very interesting for my nid army, involving gargoyles & Primes.
I've been doing a list & i want your opinion about it, i've been thinking on the most competitive list so here it is

HQ

- Hive Tyrant, lash whip & bone sword, 170 pts.
- Tyrant Guard, 60 pts

- Prime, lash whip & bone sword, 95 pts ( He's going with the unit of carnifexes, to do wound allocation )

Elite

- x2 Hive Guard, 100 pts

- x2 Hive Guard, 100 pts

- x2 Hive Guard, 100 pts

(No intentions on changing the elites here)

Troops

- 10 Gaunts, 50 pts

- 10 gaunts, 50 pts

- Tervigon, catalyst, 175 pts

- Tervigon, catalyst, 175 pts

Fast attack

- 20 Gargoyles, toxin, 140 pts

- 20 Gargoyles, toxin, 140 pts

(The gargoyles here are covering the entire army while they advance, guaranting the maximum surviability to all of them)

Heavy Support

- 2 Carnifex, 320 pts

- Trygon prime, 240 pts


So if i'm not wrong, it's 1910 pts over 2000. There's still 90 points to use, i've thought in a pair of biovores that's exactly 90 pts OR i can give biomorphs to the other nids..
What do you think guys? i aprecciate the criticism to the list to make it better!

I like it. But it's kinda a blend of a couple of my playstyle lists which makes me biased. What I'd do with 90pts is:

40pts-Adrenal on the Gargs
20pts-Adrenal on the Tervies
20pts-Toxin on the Tervies
10pts-Spines on the Carnies.

But I have to warn you that your carnies are probably going to take a beating before you ever hit combat. The lack of cover for them is going to hurt.

I'm taking this list to a tournament this weekend. I have extra points put into the tervis because I didn't have anywhere else to spend them, i'm open to suggestions, but I own no gargoyles (yet)

Prime (LW & BS, ST) 95

Prime (LW & BS, ST) 95

Tervigon (TS, AG, ST, CS, Regen, Catalyst) 230

Tervigon (TS, AG, ST, CS, Regen, Catalyst) 230

Tervigon (TS, AG, ST, CS, Regen, Catalyst) 230

10 Termagant 50

10 Termagant 50

10 Termagant 50

3 Hive Guard 150

3 Hive Guard 150

Deathleaper 140

Tyrannofex (RC, CS, Larvae) 265

Tyrannofex (RC, CS, Larvae) 265

2000 exact


Primes hang out with the Hive Guard and deter charges or soak wounds and counter assault when needed. If i drop the Regen and ST from the 3 tervigons I have 105 points to work with, but I don't know what to do with it?

Hulksmash wrote:I like it. But it's kinda a blend of a couple of my playstyle lists which makes me biased. What I'd do with 90pts is:

40pts-Adrenal on the Gargs
20pts-Adrenal on the Tervies
20pts-Toxin on the Tervies
10pts-Spines on the Carnies.

But I have to warn you that your carnies are probably going to take a beating before you ever hit combat. The lack of cover for them is going to hurt.

The Gargoyles doesn't cover the 50% of the carnies? i though taht in fact they can, maybe i was mistaken :S I like the changes though!

@Wiley

I'd drop the regen and the talons on the Tervigons personally. That's 105 more you can use to buff up the army. Though I'm not sure where to be honest. I'd cosider giving the primes toxin as it helps immensely. If you are going to run them in the same squad I'd suggest giving one just dual boneswords and 1 the BS/LW since it will make it easier to kill big threats. Maybe use the rest to flush out the gaunt squads a bit more. Or even upgrade one to dev gaunts and add a few models as those guys put out a ridiculous amount of small arms fire.

@Soni

They can, they just need to be close which will negate their speed. I generally use my gargs as a bombardment unit. They hit first and disrupt the enemy and the rest of my stuff follows. I guess it would come down to how you fielded them

There is a wealth of information to be had here, but to the shiney new-spawned 'Nid player, most of this is flying waaaaaay over my head

I kind of understand (based on what i've taken away from the updated 1st posts) how to spend my point on units, and what is and isnt worthwhile, but i'm still VERY lost on Core Units and Models for an In-Your-Face-oh-god-there-going-to-eat-ME! pure Assault Nid Force.

Some help please ?

Read the article in my signature for basic list building fundamentals.

Then, when you have decided on how you are going to play your army, you can get more specific.

If you want balls out assault, which is what Nids do well, you have to decide how you want to do it.

Nids can move fast, use various deployment methods, can be resilient, etc.

For core units, Tervigons are a great bet as they are so tough and they make other units so good. I love a giant unit of Genestealers, as do a lot of other folks, and devourer gants are a great choice, too. A mix of those three and you will be in a good position.

Honestly though, get an idea of how your army will work as a whole before worrying about individual units. Read the article in my sig, that will give you the basics, then build up from there. I think that will help you a lot.

BishopX wrote:A certain blue blog seems convinced that Harpies work well with T-Fex. I'm a little skeptical of that.

Also, keep in mind that harpies are not all that good in CC, ws3 and s5 means they struggle vs MEQ.

Another blue blog has also used Harpies, with more in-depth use related in http://raptor1313.blogspot.com/2010/09/on-harpies.html

The simplest reason to use them is they're an AT unit that is not Heavy Support or Elites. It has good accuracy (and against some targets like Vendettas, it's basically impossible to miss), and reliable strength, and against a lot of targets, shakes/stuns are perfectly acceptable. The more tanks not firing, the better.

As for it being a poor model in melee, that's how Tyranid Monstrous creatures work in general; point-for-point, the smaller Nids will inflict more damage in melee against infantry than the bigger stuff. The tradeoffs being that smaller 'nids are more vulnerable to melee torrent, and aren't effective at taking out vehicles, and that the Tyranid Monstrous creatures usually have at least one "support" feature. Paroxysm, Catalyst, or Sonic Screech in the Harpy's case, help increase the overall efficiency of the swarm. It *would* have been much simpler for a Harpy to have been Initiative 10, but halving the initiative of enemy units is a good thing, both for annoying high-initiative models, or making lower-init ones more tempting to use. ("Fear my Initiative 8 Carnifex. MUAHAHAHAHA").

On another note, one thing that seems to have been overlooked is Devourergants. They've been mentioned...once so far? And simply by merit of number of shots? The way I view it is as follows. You're taking Termagants to score, and unlock Tervigons? It's 50 points. For another 50 points, you make the unit useful beyond simply dying. While fragile, 10 Devourergants throw out a *lot* of firepower, more S4 than pretty much any unit in the game point-for-point. The extra range helps them get more reliably get all their shots in, while hopefully being able to lurk out of range of ensuing melee, but the most important thing is that by throwing so many dice at once, they blow right through the wound counters in a squad and go straight to forcing saves on the sergeant, the flamer-dude, Bob the Meltagunner...In short, torrent is the Tyranid tactical tautology to Telion.

Finally, the Carnifex. I assert that against most armies (Exceptions are Orks, Eldar, and other Tyranids), it's actually more resilient than the Trygon vs shooting. The reason is getting a 4+ cover save is a lot easier for it relative to the top-heavy, supertall Trygon. Half the model's height is in its scything talons and arms, which don't count for targeting; Warriors, Hive Guard, and Tyrant Guard all possess enough size (Warriors especially) to help the Carnifex obtain that 50% cover (reason for the exceptions above is they rely on *lots* of shots overwhelming an armor save, rather than low numbers of low-AP weapons). It has enough attacks to serve as a credible threat in melee, or to finish off any vehicle that didn't (or couldn't) move in a previous turn, yet until that time, it serves as a sniper unit, removing small squads of their important models, and pressuring enemies to remain hidden in their transports. Tag-teaming an Adrenal Dakkafex with a Dakka-Tyrant gives you a solid firebase against infantry and light armor, that can also tear apart most units in melee quite handily.