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Just to show how the rule works with a "hybrid" PSA,

Fury of the Wolf Spirits!

You use the profile given in the SW codex. No exceptions are given to not rolling to hit, neither for LOS, having run, or firing into a melee. However, you are given exception by the codex to treat two different firing profiles as a single psychic shooting attack, overriding the BRB rule of only one psychic shooting attack per turn.

Reading Rainbow....reading rainbow!!!

gameandwatch wrote:Wait did I miss something? They didn't clarify if psycannons have rending whether they are being used as assault or heavy weapons...

That was never in question. Rending is a property of the weapon whether it fires as heavy or assault. The only difference is the number of shots and whether or not the firer can move. I suggest re-reading the Psycannon entry a little more carefully because that one is pretty clear.

Aldarionn wrote:

gameandwatch wrote:Wait did I miss something? They didn't clarify if psycannons have rending whether they are being used as assault or heavy weapons...

That was never in question. Rending is a property of the weapon whether it fires as heavy or assault. The only difference is the number of shots and whether or not the firer can move. I suggest re-reading the Psycannon entry a little more carefully because that one is pretty clear.

Yea it is all about comma magic.

So does jaws and Hurricane need to roll to hit, this is important to me because of a certain tournament coming up and said powers are very central to my strategy.

Grey elder wrote:So does jaws and Hurricane need to roll to hit, this is important to me because of a certain tournament coming up and said powers are very central to my strategy.

No you do not roll to hit. They are exceptions as covered in the SW codex to the rules as listed in the BRB, to include the new BRB FAQ. If you are challenged on it by some person who holds a different view on this topic to me yanking out the new BRB FAQ claiming that as psychic shooting attacks you need to roll to hit, just pull out your BRB and tell him that exceptions to the rules listed in the BRB, including his BRB FAQ, are covered in the codexes.

Well, I'm happy there's a FAQ up, and that it's gone up with a rulebook one.

Obifett - yawn

BR - so what about the requirement per the FAQ for you to TARGET someone?

Sounds like you have a target, and what do you need to do next in the shooting rules? Roll to hit.

What does the PSA not do? Provide an exception to the rule requiring you to roll to hit the target.
You dont roll to hit anything else, as they arent your target.

Eura wrote:Wait, wait, wait, the plasma syphon makes any weapon described as using plasma to bs 1? That means it actually affects disintigrator cannons for dark eldar. Nice to know mandrakes took an unneccesary nerf, not like they were too useful already. I think i'm the only guy to actually consider taking an ulumeathi plasma syphon for a just in case measure.

Actually, not. The current Codex: Dark Eldar does not describe the Disintegrator Cannon as being plasma based. The closest it comes is to say that the DC is superior to conventional plasma technology in that it can maintain a higher rate of fire and still remain cool. The fluff states that it harnesses power from a stolen sun, not that it uses plasma. So, I don't think an argument can be made that the Syphon affects the DC. I'm pretty sure the previous Codex: DE described the DC as being a plasma type weapon, but I don't have that Codex here at work.

"Superior to conventional plasma technology" - meaning it is UNCONVENTIONAL plasma tech.

jbunny wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:I'm honestly surprised that Obliterators and possessed vehicles are considered demons. In my mind a possessed rhino is still a rhino, not a demon. Oh and mandrakes are demons, too. LOL!
Next they'll say all librarians are demons because they use the warp.

I don't have my Grey Knight codex handy, but how did falchions supposedly give +2 attacks?

And its hilarious that the plasma syphon affects almost every gun in the Tau codex. I had no idea they had some much S7 AP2 guns!

Falchions have a special rule saying they give +1A.

a Falchion is a NFW which is a Force Weapon which is a power weapon which is a CCW.

you have 2 of them so you get +1A for having 2 CCWs, and +1A for using Falchions.

Which is not how GW wants it played.

I think what GW always intended to mean when they wrote the rule is that if you take Falchions, you have two of them, which means you get +1 Attack. They never meant that +1 Attack mentioned in the rule to be in addition to the +1 Attack that having paired weapons gives you, and this FAQ ruling demonstrates that intent.

Saldiven - exceot the rules for nemesis weapons state they all get a special bonus.

The bonus for 2CCW is hardly special.

Saldiven wrote:

Eura wrote:Wait, wait, wait, the plasma syphon makes any weapon described as using plasma to bs 1? That means it actually affects disintigrator cannons for dark eldar. Nice to know mandrakes took an unneccesary nerf, not like they were too useful already. I think i'm the only guy to actually consider taking an ulumeathi plasma syphon for a just in case measure.

Actually, not. The current Codex: Dark Eldar does not describe the Disintegrator Cannon as being plasma based. The closest it comes is to say that the DC is superior to conventional plasma technology in that it can maintain a higher rate of fire and still remain cool. The fluff states that it harnesses power from a stolen sun, not that it uses plasma. So, I don't think an argument can be made that the Syphon affects the DC. I'm pretty sure the previous Codex: DE described the DC as being a plasma type weapon, but I don't have that Codex here at work.

Argh, you made me walk upstairs, it's been ages since I've had to consult a 'dex in this fashion.

"sophisticated than conventional plasma-based weaponary"

Meaning it's 'complex' plasma based weaponary.

But most importantly, DE 'Darklight' weapons make no mention of this. They "cheat the natural laws of physicis" and work by "reacting catastrophically".

I'd also like to add, that suns are made out of plasma

@nosferatu1001: When fossil cars were first introduced the following was true:

"Cars are superior to conventional horse drawn carriages" - according to your logic this would mean cars are UNCONVENTIONAL horses. While you can make that leap in theory, I find it hard to categorize horses and cars in the same technological fundamental workings.

In regards to Nemisis Falchions I can only assume they either meant them to work similar to Arcoflails (a pair of weapons counting as a single weapon), that they thought the fact they would be armed with 3 weapons (2 special close combat weapons and a storm bolter) would result in people not automatically assuming they would get +1 attack for 2 special weapons or just a case of sloppy rules writing.

DutchSage wrote:@nosferatu1001: When fossil cars were first introduced the following was true:

"Cars are superior to conventional horse drawn carriages" - according to your logic this would mean cars are UNCONVENTIONAL horses. While you can make that leap in theory, I find it hard to categorize horses and cars in the same technological fundamental workings.

No, it'd mean that cars were unconventional carriages - which they were.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DutchSage wrote:@nosferatu1001: When fossil cars were first introduced the following was true:

"Cars are superior to conventional horse drawn carriages" - according to your logic this would mean cars are UNCONVENTIONAL horses. While you can make that leap in theory, I find it hard to categorize horses and cars in the same technological fundamental workings.

No, it'd mean that cars were unconventional carriages - which they were.

Indeed, car being short for motorcar, which itself is short for motor carriage!

Some things I want to mention after reading this thread....

The rules for needing to hit are with a PSA. Things like Mind War and Lash of Submission aren't psychic shooting attacks, they just take place in the shooting phase. JoTWW is a special kind of PSA, where you don't roll to hit. Under people's logic, would you mean I would have to hit with a destructor psychic power?

Falchions weren't that good in he first place. Who would ever take one for that price even if it was 2 attacks. Probably the only reason someone would take one is if they were trying to equip paladins with different weapons for wound allocation.

Plasma Syphon. Stop complaining, although it can be devastating, first figure the probability of someone taking one. You have to figure in the better HQ's you can take, and even Corteaz if someone would take an inquisitor. And from there you have to be within 12 inches for it to be effective. It's not like the majority of tau weapons are affected just the ones on the basic guys. The most competitive lists have full mech with min fire warriors squads inside. And you have to get close to do anything, and if you are that close, you might as well as have a big target that says shoot me.
And who's to stop me from moving the fire warriors so that there still in range of one member of the squad but not the inquisitor with the syphon?

Brother Ramses wrote:

Grey elder wrote:So does jaws and Hurricane need to roll to hit, this is important to me because of a certain tournament coming up and said powers are very central to my strategy.

No you do not roll to hit. They are exceptions as covered in the SW codex to the rules as listed in the BRB, to include the new BRB FAQ. If you are challenged on it by some person who holds a different view on this topic to me yanking out the new BRB FAQ claiming that as psychic shooting attacks you need to roll to hit, just pull out your BRB and tell him that exceptions to the rules listed in the BRB, including his BRB FAQ, are covered in the codexes.

@ Grey elder:
Yes, you DO have to roll to hit but only a single roll to hit (and according to SW FAQ, Murderous Hurricane difficult/dangerous terrain effect works whether you hit or miss). Equip your RP with a chooser and you'll be fine (previously only applied to LL, now applies to LL, MH, Jaws, and lolThunderclap. Hey, it's now needed moreso than before).

@Brother Ramses:
If you use that argument in a tournament, you will lose as you will not be able to point out an exception in the SW Codex. Is specifically saying "do not roll to hit" an exception? Yes. Is NOT specifically saying "roll to hit" an exception? No, but that is what you're arguing.

A basic rule of PSA is that you must roll to hit. A basic rule of psychic powers is that you must roll to pass psychic test. Your argument saying don't roll to hit for a PSA because it doesn't say roll to hit is the same as saying don't roll to pass psychic test for a psychic power because it doesn't say take a psychic test. That is completely backwards logic when on P37 of the SW Codex it says that "All Rune Priest psychic powers are used following the rules given in the main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

In a tournament setting, at best you can present your own debatable interpretation of the rules where your opponent can give hard ruling both in your own Codex that says all your psychic powers follow the basic rules AND that a basic rule of Psychic Shooting Attacks is roll to hit. Our Codex doesn't say "Some Rune Priest psychic powers are used following the rules..." it says specifically "All Rune Priest psychic powers..."

A TO will rule in favor of this hard ruling. Not in favor of arguable interpretation.

I only play SW so there's no advantage for me to argue in favor of "roll to hit" like there is for you to argue against "roll to hit" but I play RAW, not RAITBMA (Rules as interpreted to be most advantageous) or rules as interpreted to keep playing how I've been playing it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Superior to conventional plasma technology" - meaning it is UNCONVENTIONAL plasma tech.

Nice logical fallacy. If I know A is not an X, then I cannot assert that A is a different type of X. That is you making things up. All that statement tells you is that A is not an X.

In this case, all we know is DCs are not conventional plasma tech. Unless the description tells you what kind of tech it is, you are just making assumptions.

Oh sweet jebus, GW has opened the floodgates of debating fluff RAW. May whatever deity is in the sky above have mercy on us.

I love how people are pulling this GENERAL > SPECIFIC or whatever and trying to build logic trees to justify their arguments. I'm just trying to figure out if these people love to argue for the sake of arguing or they really think that way.

Anyway, great FAQ. I gotta say though, I'm surprised by the rulings. My friends and I were playing it as S10 doomfisting dreadknights and +2A falchions. It's not like they were breaking the game.

Personally I think that whoever wrote this thing was not Ward and are probably as pissed off about the GK dex as we are all. (we being the 99.752% of the internet crowd that were accustomed to the amazing old fluff and rules and didn't expect GKs to suddenly turn into another marine codex) Subsequently, the guy was like, Wow ward you are such a f***** for releasing this P.O.S. codex and I hope you die and go to hell.
SO, I'm going to nerf the hell out of this codex with this FAQ.

Regarding psychic shooting attacks and if JOTWW needs to hit, seriously guys?

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Is JOTWW presented as such? if yes, it needs to hit. if no, no.

Personally I play JOTWW, mechanically, similar to how a flamer template is used except its just a line. If I ever encounter it anyway...

Choboking wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Superior to conventional plasma technology" - meaning it is UNCONVENTIONAL plasma tech.

Nice logical fallacy. If I know A is not an X, then I cannot assert that A is a different type of X. That is you making things up. All that statement tells you is that A is not an X.

It tells you that the A is not a NORMAL X. That, along with the context, tells us that the A is a special X.

Soulx wrote: Things like Mind War and Lash of Submission aren't psychic shooting attacks, they just take place in the shooting phase.

Mind War IS a Psychic Shooting Attack. Try giving the Eldar FAQ a read some time(something that ALL Eldar players have been needing to do for some time, re: Mind War).

In fact, let me give you a hand with that:

"Q. Which Eldar psychic powers are psychic shooting
attacks?

A. Destructor, Eldritch Storm and Mind War (though
they include a few exceptions to the normal shooting
rules, as specified in their description)."

Emphasis added.

terranarc wrote:
Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.

Is JOTWW presented as such? if yes, it needs to hit. if no, no.

Exactly this. Jaws IS presented this way. It specifically states that it is a PSA in the description. That is exactly what the rule calls for. Therefore JOTWW needs to roll for hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Choboking wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Superior to conventional plasma technology" - meaning it is UNCONVENTIONAL plasma tech.

Nice logical fallacy. If I know A is not an X, then I cannot assert that A is a different type of X. That is you making things up. All that statement tells you is that A is not an X.

It tells you that the A is not a NORMAL X. That, along with the context, tells us that the A is a special X.

What context tells you that? Please quote the context because what has been quoted so far certainly does not tell you such a thing.

You cannot assume a what A is from that statement, you only know what it is not.

Platuan4th wrote:Try giving the Eldar FAQ a read some time(something that ALL Eldar players have been needing to do for some time, re: Mind War).

A. Destructor, Eldritch Storm and Mind War(though
they include a few exceptions to the normal shooting
rules, as specified in their description)."

Emphasis added.

Soulx wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:Try giving the Eldar FAQ a read some time(something that ALL Eldar players have been needing to do for some time, re: Mind War).

A. Destructor, Eldritch Storm and Mind War(though
they include a few exceptions to the normal shooting
rules, as specified in their description)."

Emphasis added.

None of those being an exception to roll to hit. Mind War does NOT hit automatically according to its own rules. Trust me, I've been looking for a way to not roll to hit with Mind War since the Eldar FAQ went up and it was classed as a PSA.

Sev wrote:A basic rule of PSA is that you must roll to hit. A basic rule of psychic powers is that you must roll to pass psychic test. Your argument saying don't roll to hit for a PSA because it doesn't say roll to hit is the same as saying don't roll to pass psychic test for a psychic power because it doesn't say take a psychic test. That is completely backwards logic when on P37 of the SW Codex it says that "All Rune Priest psychic powers are used following the rules given in the main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

No we are saying you don't need TO roll to hit because the SW PSA in question specifically state that the enemy unit TAKES hits:

For example, in the case of Murderous Huricane, following the rules for shooting attacks: You first declare your enemy target and check LOS and range. Next, assuming the target is within range and LOS, you would normally role to hit (again following the rules for shooting attacks -- which again, the BRB FAQ redundantly reiterates). Except the codex tells you to do something else entirely. The codex specifically states that the "Unit Takes 3D6 Strength 3 Hits". You do not role TO hit because the codex specifically states that the unit TAKES the hits in the present. The codex is more specific than the BRB so its rulings takes presedencse as an exception.

A second example would be Thunder Clap, again following the rules for shooting attacks: You first declare your target and check LOS and range. Except the codex specifically states that the target is the RP. Next you would roll to hit. Except the codex tells you to instead place a blast marker over the RP and every enemy model touching the marker "takes a strength 3 hit". Again, you do not role TO hit because the codex specifically states that enemy models touched by the blast marker TAKE a hit. The codex is more specific than the BRB so its rulings takes presedencse as an exception.

Again, the BRB FAQ is not stating anything new, so if a PSA specific rules negated the need to roll to hit...then it still negates the need to roll to hit.

If I understand the FAQ correctly DK's suck it now. hehe.

<apply coolant; do not become over-heated discussing [perceived] alterations to your game of toy soldiers>

Sev wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Grey elder wrote:So does jaws and Hurricane need to roll to hit, this is important to me because of a certain tournament coming up and said powers are very central to my strategy.

No you do not roll to hit. They are exceptions as covered in the SW codex to the rules as listed in the BRB, to include the new BRB FAQ. If you are challenged on it by some person who holds a different view on this topic to me yanking out the new BRB FAQ claiming that as psychic shooting attacks you need to roll to hit, just pull out your BRB and tell him that exceptions to the rules listed in the BRB, including his BRB FAQ, are covered in the codexes.

@ Grey elder:
Yes, you DO have to roll to hit but only a single roll to hit (and according to SW FAQ, Murderous Hurricane difficult/dangerous terrain effect works whether you hit or miss). Equip your RP with a chooser and you'll be fine (previously only applied to LL, now applies to LL, MH, Jaws, and lolThunderclap. Hey, it's now needed moreso than before).

@Brother Ramses:
If you use that argument in a tournament, you will lose as you will not be able to point out an exception in the SW Codex. Is specifically saying "do not roll to hit" an exception? Yes. Is NOT specifically saying "roll to hit" an exception? No, but that is what you're arguing.

A basic rule of PSA is that you must roll to hit. A basic rule of psychic powers is that you must roll to pass psychic test. Your argument saying don't roll to hit for a PSA because it doesn't say roll to hit is the same as saying don't roll to pass psychic test for a psychic power because it doesn't say take a psychic test. That is completely backwards logic when on P37 of the SW Codex it says that "All Rune Priest psychic powers are used following the rules given in the main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

In a tournament setting, at best you can present your own debatable interpretation of the rules where your opponent can give hard ruling both in your own Codex that says all your psychic powers follow the basic rules AND that a basic rule of Psychic Shooting Attacks is roll to hit. Our Codex doesn't say "Some Rune Priest psychic powers are used following the rules..." it says specifically "All Rune Priest psychic powers..."

A TO will rule in favor of this hard ruling. Not in favor of arguable interpretation.

I only play SW so there's no advantage for me to argue in favor of "roll to hit" like there is for you to argue against "roll to hit" but I play RAW, not RAITBMA (Rules as interpreted to be most advantageous) or rules as interpreted to keep playing how I've been playing it.

Actually Sev, the order of operations for MH and Jaws are exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks in the BRB.

In the case of Jaws, the line is placed after a successful psychic test with the only restriction being that the first model affected is in LOS. Any model (as specified by model types affected) that the line touches must take an initiative test or be removed from the board.

That is how it it is an exception to the general rule for psychic shooting attacks per the BRB. You do not roll to hit, the line is placed after a successful psychic test. The line is not required to hit models, it only needs to touch them to force an initiative test. That is the exception that you are failing to see that is accounted for by the clause in the first paragraph on page 50, Psykers.

The same process applies to MH with the difference being that you actually follow some of the general rules for psychic shooting attacks while still having exceptions to others. You have a target, you have a range, you need LOS, etc, etc per the general rules for psychic shooting attacks in the BRB. The exception arises when you pass a psychic test. At that time the target unit takes 3d6 Str 3 AP - hits. That is the exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks that you are failing to see.

The only SW psychic shooting attack that does not have any exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks is Living Lightning. Even Fury of the Wolf Spirits has an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not responding to PSA in this thread anymore. Using the dedicated thread instead from now on.