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DarknessEternal wrote:Well, JotWW requires a to-hit roll now. So there's a bone for Tyranids. But then again, Catalyst requires a to-hit roll, so one hand giveth, and the other taketh away.

I don't understand this. JotWW is called a psykic shooting attack in the codex so my group has always required a hit roll, why would that have been wrong before now?

Catalyst doesn't have a STR, AP value, or any mention of being a shooting attack, so why would I now have to roll to hit my own unit?

On one hand, I'm happy with the answer to the "What is a Daemon" question.

On the other, I'm disappointed in how it was handled. The relevant codices should have been FAQ'ed instead. Now if the next version of the CSM codex includes a different daemonic unit type (daemonic cavalry for example) people will begin the "They aren't really daemons" parade again.

That is, assuming that GW didn't learn from this lesson and make the whole "is this a daemon" thing really clear.

So yeah, expecting to see this argument again in about 2 years or whenever the next CSM codex comes out


On a side note, the plasma siphon ruling is hilarious

Noisy_Marine wrote:I'm honestly surprised that Obliterators and possessed vehicles are considered demons. In my mind a possessed rhino is still a rhino, not a demon. Oh and mandrakes are demons, too. LOL!
Next they'll say all librarians are demons because they use the warp.

I don't have my Grey Knight codex handy, but how did falchions supposedly give +2 attacks?

And its hilarious that the plasma syphon affects almost every gun in the Tau codex. I had no idea they had some much S7 AP2 guns!

Falchions have a special rule saying they give +1A.

a Falchion is a NFW which is a Force Weapon which is a power weapon which is a CCW.

you have 2 of them so you get +1A for having 2 CCWs, and +1A for using Falchions.

Grey Templar wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:I'm honestly surprised that Obliterators and possessed vehicles are considered demons. In my mind a possessed rhino is still a rhino, not a demon. Oh and mandrakes are demons, too. LOL!
Next they'll say all librarians are demons because they use the warp.

I don't have my Grey Knight codex handy, but how did falchions supposedly give +2 attacks?

And its hilarious that the plasma syphon affects almost every gun in the Tau codex. I had no idea they had some much S7 AP2 guns!

Falchions have a special rule saying they give +1A.

a Falchion is a NFW which is a Force Weapon which is a power weapon which is a CCW.

you have 2 of them so you get +1A for having 2 CCWs, and +1A for using Falchions.

Which is not how GW wants it played.

dripwelquest wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Well, JotWW requires a to-hit roll now. So there's a bone for Tyranids. But then again, Catalyst requires a to-hit roll, so one hand giveth, and the other taketh away.

I don't understand this. JotWW is called a psykic shooting attack in the codex so my group has always required a hit roll, why would that have been wrong before now?

Catalyst doesn't have a STR, AP value, or any mention of being a shooting attack, so why would I now have to roll to hit my own unit?

Why would Jaws require a 'To Hit' roll?

It's a psychic shooting attack but it doesn't target anything, you simply draw a line from the Rune Priest to 24" away, and anything touching the line takes an I test.

EDIT: Genuine question I would search for, but the function is still down.

jbunny wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:I'm honestly surprised that Obliterators and possessed vehicles are considered demons. In my mind a possessed rhino is still a rhino, not a demon. Oh and mandrakes are demons, too. LOL!
Next they'll say all librarians are demons because they use the warp.

I don't have my Grey Knight codex handy, but how did falchions supposedly give +2 attacks?

And its hilarious that the plasma syphon affects almost every gun in the Tau codex. I had no idea they had some much S7 AP2 guns!

Falchions have a special rule saying they give +1A.

a Falchion is a NFW which is a Force Weapon which is a power weapon which is a CCW.

you have 2 of them so you get +1A for having 2 CCWs, and +1A for using Falchions.

Which is not how GW wants it played.

yeah, they have the right to violate their own rules.

the FAQ didn't change the rules, it just gave their, incorrect interpertation.


they are sending very mixed messages with this FAQ.

they are going strictly RAW in some places, and completely RAI in others, and in some they are just totally screwing with everything.

Agreed, and they even contridict themselves in other FAQ's, see Nids and Lash vs GK's Int boost.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Why would Jaws require a 'To Hit' roll?

It's a psychic shooting attack but it doesn't target anything, you simply draw a line from the Rune Priest to 24" away, and anything touching the line takes an I test.

EDIT: Genuine question I would search for, but the function is still down.

The new Rulebook FAQ (also just out today) now states that psychic shooting attacks require 'to hit' rolls. JotWW is a PSA (if I recall) so I would guess it would require both a target and a to 'hit roll', even though it's not causing 'wounds'. Apropos to the thread, the caster of JotWW would then be affected by the Aegis due to needing to 'target' a GK unit.

Jaws isn't a great power against GKs anyway.

it would only come up in competitive enviroments where the SW player uses it for other opponents.

My opinion, but I think that rule was SUPPOSE to talk about PSA's that have a weapon stateline, and not attacks like Blood Lance, JotWW, and Mind War. Does not mean it does not effect them, only I think the intent was it was not suppose to effect (affect) them.

jbunny wrote:My opinion, but I think that rule was SUPPOSE to talk about PSA's that have a weapon stateline, and not attacks like Blood Lance, JotWW, and Mind War. Does not mean it does not effect them, only I think the intent was it was not suppose to effect (affect) them.

Plausible. Unfortunately, not what it says though. :/

And I stated as much.

Indeed. Just agreeing with you.

Woohoo! Went 7-1 on this faq! Much better than I did on the DE faq (4-3)

Only guess wrong on Hammerhand. A little disappointed they didn't explain the turbo pen round for the vindicare assassin

figured on most of this. seems proper. only complaint is the falchoin thing... 2 of the same special weapon = +1a, and special rule of the weapon +1 A. unless GW wanted to indicate that the falchions even though they are a pair of weapons only work as a pair, and as such is a single weapon. eitherway. i dont use falchions nor do i plan to, so meh.

Jaws, i would assume, would now work like Eldar vibrocannons. Roll to hit, if it fails, nothing happens. If it hits, draw the line.

BTW. Screw you GW for nerfing mind war once again! Pretty soon it'll only do one wound and it'll be against a random model in range. So so sad.

On a side note, ROFL at Lash not being a PSA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:I'm honestly surprised that Obliterators and possessed vehicles are considered demons. In my mind a possessed rhino is still a rhino, not a demon. Oh and mandrakes are demons, too. LOL!
Next they'll say all librarians are demons because they use the warp.

I don't have my Grey Knight codex handy, but how did falchions supposedly give +2 attacks?

And its hilarious that the plasma syphon affects almost every gun in the Tau codex. I had no idea they had some much S7 AP2 guns!

Falchions have a special rule saying they give +1A.

a Falchion is a NFW which is a Force Weapon which is a power weapon which is a CCW.

you have 2 of them so you get +1A for having 2 CCWs, and +1A for using Falchions.

The way I always saw it is that it is a single weapon entry. 2 falchions is a single weapon even though it's modeled to look like two. So because of that it's one weapon that gives +1A. Honestly glad to see I'm right.

Also the ruling on the NDF is disapointing. The hammer is now a no brainer. For only 10 points you get S10, auto-shaken vehicles, I1 enemies, and can freely use excomunication if you face a daemon. Why would you not always have one?

Amusingly enough, spawn aren't on the daemons list. Are they not daemons then? Or shall we just assume that even GW has forgotten about that craptastic unit?

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Amusingly enough, spawn aren't on the daemons list. Are they not daemons then? Or shall we just assume that even GW has forgotten about that craptastic unit?

Holy crap! I forgot about that. Good catch. I'm going with they forgot, just like I did.

Sothas - no, youre not right. It states in the rules for Falchions thrat you are given a pair.

A pair is two weapons.

GW just arbitrarily changed the rules, going against RAW AND RAI for no apparent reason (so, they strike much faster than normal, which is apparently exactly as fast as someone with a power weapon and pistol) as per usual.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sothas - no, youre not right. It states in the rules for Falchions thrat you are given a pair.

A pair is two weapons.

GW just arbitrarily changed the rules, going against RAW AND RAI for no apparent reason (so, they strike much faster than normal, which is apparently exactly as fast as someone with a power weapon and pistol) as per usual.

It's perfectly plausible that they considered Falcions to be a single weapon that just happens to be represented as a pair on the model.

dripwelquest wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Well, JotWW requires a to-hit roll now. So there's a bone for Tyranids. But then again, Catalyst requires a to-hit roll, so one hand giveth, and the other taketh away.

I don't understand this. JotWW is called a psykic shooting attack in the codex so my group has always required a hit roll, why would that have been wrong before now?

Catalyst doesn't have a STR, AP value, or any mention of being a shooting attack, so why would I now have to roll to hit my own unit?

Catalyst is not a PSA and is cast in the movement phase. In fact, that particular question and answer has absolutley no impact whatsoever on the Tyranid Codex as all of our PSA either automatically hit or have a weapon profile (and thus we already knew that you were required to roll to hit ). Honestly, I think people are reading to much into the FAQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

Why would Jaws require a 'To Hit' roll?

It's a psychic shooting attack but it doesn't target anything, you simply draw a line from the Rune Priest to 24" away, and anything touching the line takes an I test.

EDIT: Genuine question I would search for, but the function is still down.

The new Rulebook FAQ (also just out today) now states that psychic shooting attacks require 'to hit' rolls. JotWW is a PSA (if I recall) so I would guess it would require both a target and a to 'hit roll', even though it's not causing 'wounds'. Apropos to the thread, the caster of JotWW would then be affected by the Aegis due to needing to 'target' a GK unit.

The SW FAQ specifically mentions that it requires a target.

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight?
Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,
impassable terrain)? (p37)
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf
requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of
sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he
is treated as the target model; the power just happens to
hit everybody else on its way through!

PSA follow the rules for shooting per the BRB. All shooting/ranged attacks require a to hit roll per the BRB UNLESS the rules for the weapon say differnetly. This FAQ changes nothing and only repeats what we already knew.

Per the rules of JOWW, you draw a 24" line and all models along that line are hit (clarified by the FAQ above). So JOWW is an exception to needing to roll to hit...just like it has always been.

Avatar 720 wrote:
Q: What counts as a Daemon? (p21)
A: Everything in the Chaos Daemons codex, Daemon
Princes, Possessed Chaos Space Marines, Obliterators,
summoned greater Daemons, summoned lesser
Daemons, any vehicle with the daemonic possesion
upgrade, Daemonhosts, Mandrakes, Kheradruakh the
Decapitator, the Avatar.

So basically eveything in C:CD, everything that's good in C:CSM (bar possessed, surprised they didn't chuck Plague Marines and Thousand Sons in there for good measure), something nobody uses, something nobody uses, something i've never heard of and something we already knew was calssed as a Daemon.

If someone enters a GK siphon army with a good lot of daemon-hunting ability, I might as well not show up to any tournaments.

Does this mean Obliterators have Eternal Warrior now?

Nobody raised this much of a stink about warp spider powerblades, why is it an issue here? They're worded the exact same way.

And as for wings and difficult terrain, rulebook says jump infantry take dangerous terrain checks. I'm not jump infantry, I'm a monstrous creature. If they're going to say I make checks, I'm going to say I'm immune to jaws. I'll be damned if I'll lie down and get all of the drawbacks of both types of model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Being a daemon doesn't mean you have the daemon special rule, sadly.

Spellbound wrote:And as for wings and difficult terrain, rulebook says jump infantry take dangerous terrain checks. I'm not jump infantry, I'm a monstrous creature. If they're going to say I make checks, I'm going to say I'm immune to jaws. I'll be damned if I'll follow the movement rules for jump infantry as listed on page 52 of the main rulebook

Fixed that for you.

Moves as jump infantry means just that.
Check out the paragraph listed as 'Movement' under Jump Infantry on Page 52.

wyomingfox wrote:

dripwelquest wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Well, JotWW requires a to-hit roll now. So there's a bone for Tyranids. But then again, Catalyst requires a to-hit roll, so one hand giveth, and the other taketh away.

I don't understand this. JotWW is called a psykic shooting attack in the codex so my group has always required a hit roll, why would that have been wrong before now?

Catalyst doesn't have a STR, AP value, or any mention of being a shooting attack, so why would I now have to roll to hit my own unit?

Catalyst is not a PSA and is cast in the movement phase. In fact, that particular question and answer has absolutley no impact whatsoever on the Tyranid Codex as all of our PSA either automatically hit or have a weapon profile (and thus we already knew that you were required to roll to hit ). Honestly, I think people are reading to much into the FAQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

Why would Jaws require a 'To Hit' roll?

It's a psychic shooting attack but it doesn't target anything, you simply draw a line from the Rune Priest to 24" away, and anything touching the line takes an I test.

EDIT: Genuine question I would search for, but the function is still down.

The new Rulebook FAQ (also just out today) now states that psychic shooting attacks require 'to hit' rolls. JotWW is a PSA (if I recall) so I would guess it would require both a target and a to 'hit roll', even though it's not causing 'wounds'. Apropos to the thread, the caster of JotWW would then be affected by the Aegis due to needing to 'target' a GK unit.

The SW FAQ specifically mentions that it requires a target.

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight?
Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,
impassable terrain)? (p37)
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf
requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of
sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he
is treated as the target model; the power just happens to
hit everybody else on its way through!

PSA follow the rules for shooting per the BRB. All shooting/ranged attacks require a to hit roll per the BRB UNLESS the rules for the weapon say differnetly. This FAQ changes nothing and only repeats what we already knew.

Per the rules of JOWW, you draw a 24" line and all models along that line are hit (clarified by the FAQ above). So JOWW is an exception to needing to roll to hit...just like it has always been.

Finally! Someone else who understands how PSA's work. The power itself says it "hits" everyone under the line. The same is true with Murderous Hurricane, which says it causes 3d6 S3 "hits". Since it hit, why would it need a to-hit roll after the fact?

The only interpretation to the FAQ that I can think of that would require a to-hit roll for powers that automatically hit is if each power cast requires ONE to-hit roll before it can even take effect. IE, I cast Jaws, pass my psychic test, declare my target, roll to hit, then if I roll a 3+ I draw a line and everyone under the line suffers the effect. Or, I cast Murderous Hurricane, pass my Psychic Test, declare my target, roll to hit ONCE, and then if I roll a 3+ I roll 3d6 to determine how many times I actually hit my opponent and proceed as normal. I guess I could understand that, but it's a complicated interpretation that seems well outside of how the game is normally played.

It's something to think about though.

SkySerpent wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:
Q: What counts as a Daemon? (p21)
A: Everything in the Chaos Daemons codex, Daemon
Princes, Possessed Chaos Space Marines, Obliterators,
summoned greater Daemons, summoned lesser
Daemons, any vehicle with the daemonic possesion
upgrade, Daemonhosts, Mandrakes, Kheradruakh the
Decapitator, the Avatar.

So basically eveything in C:CD, everything that's good in C:CSM (bar possessed, surprised they didn't chuck Plague Marines and Thousand Sons in there for good measure), something nobody uses, something nobody uses, something i've never heard of and something we already knew was calssed as a Daemon.

If someone enters a GK siphon army with a good lot of daemon-hunting ability, I might as well not show up to any tournaments.

Does this mean Obliterators have Eternal Warrior now?

Just because something counts as a daemon does not mean that it suddenly has the "Daemon" rule from another codex.

Aldarionn wrote:
The only interpretation to the FAQ that I can think of that would require a to-hit roll for powers that automatically hit is if each power cast requires ONE to-hit roll before it can even take effect. IE, I cast Jaws, pass my psychic test, declare my target, roll to hit, then if I roll a 3+ I draw a line and everyone under the line suffers the effect. Or, I cast Murderous Hurricane, pass my Psychic Test, declare my target, roll to hit ONCE, and then if I roll a 3+ I roll 3d6 to determine how many times I actually hit my opponent and proceed as normal. I guess I could understand that, but it's a complicated interpretation that seems well outside of how the game is normally played.

This is the correct interpretation. A single "to hit" roll is needed.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sothas - no, youre not right. It states in the rules for Falchions thrat you are given a pair.

A pair is two weapons.

GW just arbitrarily changed the rules, going against RAW AND RAI for no apparent reason (so, they strike much faster than normal, which is apparently exactly as fast as someone with a power weapon and pistol) as per usual.

It's perfectly plausible that they considered Falcions to be a single weapon that just happens to be represented as a pair on the model.

Seriously, its in the rules for the Falchions that they are a Pair. Not talking about the model here; the clue was i stated "in the rules"

Nobody - you still need a target, and you still need to hit that initial target. Once you have "hit" that target, you draw the line.

If you move as jump infantry, you take Dangerous Terrain tests as JI do.

That seems to be the logical interpretation to me, but it seems so far outside of how the game has been played the last few years that I am having difficulty accepting it. I would hope that if the vast majority of people were playing something so obviously wrong from the way GW intended it to be played that they would have released an FAQ much sooner than now in order to correct it. Powers like Jaws of the World Wolf, Blood Lance, Murderous Hurricane and Mind War all say "If the test is past then X", not "If the test is passed, roll to hit and X" and even the Rulebook states that psychic shooting attacks roll to hit unless they hit automatically or state otherwise. Considering the wording for those powers, I always assumed it meant they "stated otherwise" and played it accordingly.

I guess I could be wrong.

Actually you only need LOS to the first model that Jaws will affect as per the FAQ. Then you refer the rules for Jaws in determining who is hit.

No to hit roll for Jaws is needed.