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Simply put, FFG aren't, unlike GW, a group of blind morons trying to kill an infestation of termites with a stapler.

Kriswell wrote:Take the recent price increase, for example. I live in the Baltimore/Washington DC area. There are plenty of gaming stores and more specifically GW stores around. I am friends with many of the managers. My education, both undergraduate and graduate is in business management and analysis. I ask how things are going. I'm interested. The price increase did not negatively impact sales AT ALL. Sales went up. Most people will grumble a little and spend the same $50 they were planning on spending last week. The real world isn't full of internet trolls who see every business decision as a sign that the Corporate Endtimes(tm) are upon us. If I had to hazard a guess, the vast majority of people on this forum swearing that they will never buy another GW product will not follow through.

GW sells toy soldiers with a very high markup to a small market segment. This allows them to make stupid decisions that erode their margin and still stay in business. Their end of the day profit margin is shameful compared to what it could be if managed differently, but it is still a perfectly valid way to run a niche business.

I totally accept your evidence. But I would challenge your extrapolation of it on the grounds that your reported sample is the B&M gaming stores in your area and therefore your data is skewed.

The problem is that their customers are by definition going to be less price sensitive than the *average* customer on the basis that they are already prepared to pay full MSRP for their toys, and not receive the readily available online discount. If they are not bothered by the 20% extra over what they actually need to pay that they are already paying, an extra, fully anticipated, price hike is unlikely to dissuade them. If all of GW's customers were this way inclined, GW would totally be doing the right thing. The problem for GW is that the evidence is that most of their customers are NOT this way inclined. If they were, their reported turnover would increase year on year in real terms. Instead we have had a year on year real (i.e. discounting for underlying inflation) decrease in turnover every year since 2004. The published, audited, verifiable data demonstrates unequivocably and unarguably that in total and on average their customers bought less product in 2010 than they did in any year in the last decade, and paid less for it in real terms. Period. Anecdotal evidence, interesting as it may be, from any number of B&M stores will surely not alter that fact? Particularly as year on year a greater proportion of their sales are migrating to online.

GW has no Business analysts.

Edit : Damn, changed your post.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah but compare GW and PP...

PP has a website blog they use to preview upcoming information. GW has this as well, but their website blog is naught but thinly veiled advertising (at treats its audience like idiots).

If you think that PP's website and 'blogs' are anything other than marketing you are deluding yourself. The whole of PP, FFG, GW and every other website is aimed at marketing. If PP make people feel like they are their best pals then their marketing is working. I'm not apologising for GW because I think their marketing strategy is very poor, I have said before that as soon as they have the photos they should be online before they go to the printers and they should control their own message. I know that this is the way Apple do things, by letting the viral leaks do their own marketing, but that usually involves a good product at the end but the problem with Storm of Magic is that the scenery is so different we cant really judge it by anything other than looks and the models are sub par for GW. GW will continue to erode their own market share the more they plod along. I understand that the scale of the company means it cant change its strategy as easily as PP who have a tiny range in comparison but they need to do something more than change when WD is published.

Given how even 'haters' are desperate for GW info I'm not surprised that GW creative staff have no web presence, I mean if even Jes Goodwin's web I.D. got out it would get spammed to death by haters and fanbois even about stuff he has no control over but GW do need to give them more presence on the web. Game designers are internet personalities now and while I understand that that might not interest some, I think it would help GW have a web savvy or web present developer who can work with the fans on behalf of the company. Blizzard have done this well and they make no apologies for ignoring unconstructive criticism.

From even my limited management experience I know that it is always better to come to an argument with a solution rather than just dumping a load of problems and not doing anything about it. However I also realise that many posters here have probably become jaded over the years and might not want to be so charitable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:GW has no Business analysts.

They dont need any as long as your avatar and sig advertise their IP

Advertise to people already in touch with the IP, notably, everyone on this forum.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They solve problems the same way The United States Government solves the echonomic crisis, with a freshly slaughtered chicken and a circular choice chart painted on the floor to the sound of a guy playing a wazoo.

Kroothawk wrote:Another tidbit:

rikard from Warseer wrote:I've actually met Trish and chat with a few other GW sculptors and painters and if it puts your mind at rest I tell you why they don't respond. They are not allowed to use any forums at all, as part of their contract, they are forbidden to post anything, even private sculpts of their own which will never see production. They're not even allowed to drop the vaguest of hints towards anything. It's literally on par with a gagging order, especially for the new comers at GW.

Jes Goodwin should challenge this. See if GW are really so stuck up that they think they can afford to lose him...

The only print magazine I buy these days is Wired (and even then, I'm finding that they post a large amount of their content for free online). Every issue has 5-10 articles each 5-10 pages of nearly *solid text*, which are very interesting and make for some good intellectual debate. I could total up the text in a white dwarf to 5 pages, and most of it drivel.

I just honestly don't see how this is going to work. These days, "0-day attacks" on products aren't that uncommon - someone at the print factory takes a scan/copy and puts it online. Someone, somewhere knows about the content coming out of GW, and it is going to leak.

I can kind of see their idea. If no-one knows their army is going to be updated, people will buy a full army the day before release... and then buy another full army!! I know Apple attempts to keep very close wraps on their product releases (though those sneaky patent spies still manage to get the goss) in order to prevent people from saving until the next update. But again... it just seems like a major backwards step when everyone else is moving away from print.

Platuan4th wrote:Translation: We realized people weren't buying our overpriced catalog and are now trying to rectify this by giving people what should have continued to be in it all along.

This in no way motivates me to actually PAY for their catalog. If you shut down rumors, you effectively have no marketing, so 'em I couldn't care less.

Kanluwen wrote:I think it's more of a case that the marketing department is aimed more towards crowds that y'know...don't spend time on forums like this.

When they had their own forums, they didn't do a terrible job of 'marketing' new releases. They'd drop hints and then bam, you'd suddenly see an updated "Sneak Peek" posting with some new shinies(usually one for each game system).

Except that a lot of that crowd have internet and newsletter subscription from GW.

So sane businesses say to customers via newsletter "Exciting new Grunge Wizards coming out ETA (insert month) +Test shot/Promo shots/Concept art"
It isn't hard.

Unless you are GW.
Forgetting, sorry.
GW is a niche and to target a niche market you don't aim to tell them anything. Apparently

Moan, moan, moan, moan, moan!

Its like a bloody mothers meeting in here sometimes.

WD is looking to be improved - this is good news, it is wht we have been asking for for years. I will await the July issue with baited breath and will judge whether it is worth buying or not then.

Print verses Online - suggesting that online is cutting edge is risable, its more of the same but with added opinion and whining.

At least with a magazine, when I accidently sit on it it gets crumpled, with the Ipad now that literally could be a cutting edge (with added repair bill!).

Post edited
Thanks to Osbad for the correction above.

I might actually buy one,i have not bought one years!!!

notprop wrote:Moan, moan, moan, moan, moan!

Its like a bloody mothers meeting in here sometimes.

Never mind sonny I'll put the kettle on and make us all a nice cuppa.

RiTides wrote:Hey guys, I'm all for poking fun at GW's insane approach to marketing... but this is actually good news, right? WD being worth buying?

A shame about not sending out black boxes / info /etc... but I'd love to have a decent WD to check out each month. Might even get a subscription if it's good enough...

How on earth does this make it worth buying? Now I'm paying for their catalog and their marketing? that.
I took a decision to nerf the SOB army I was thinking of.
Now I'm looking hard at Warmachine and FOW. They get as good a fanbase at the store.

notprop wrote:Moan, moan, moan, moan, moan!

Its like a bloody mothers meeting in here sometimes.

WD is looking to be improved - this is good news, it is wht we have been asking for for years. I will await the July issue with baited breath and will judge whether it is worth buying or not then

They could release something spectacularly fantastic which fulfills all the wishes people have expressed but you know that the only posts on the subject would be those people whinging about how bad it is and how it isn't like the WDs of the good old days...

Bloodwin wrote:If you think that PP's website and 'blogs' are anything other than marketing you are deluding yourself.

Of course it's designed to sell products, but it's not done in a way that's masquerading as 'hobby advice' like GW's "What's On Sale Today" column. Furthermore, they show things that aren't on sale yet. GW doesn't do that and, in fact, will be keeping more secrets. Blogs by a company are usually created for the express purpose of pushing their product lines - and that's fine - but there's a right way and a wrong way to go about it. GW seems to always choose - nay, aim for - the wrong way.

Bloodwin wrote:From even my limited management experience I know that it is always better to come to an argument with a solution rather than just dumping a load of problems and not doing anything about it. However I also realise that many posters here have probably become jaded over the years and might not want to be so charitable.

I've listed the things GW could be doing in the past - embracing digital media, social media, the Internet in general, leverage their website/WD and even their miniature making capacity to support their licensed IP (RPG's, Dawn of War, movies, etc.), participating in the spectrum of wargaming rather than shoving their fingers in their ears and pretending that the other companies out there don't exist, showing up to trade shows and conventions - and so on. A lot of these could increase word of mouth, good will, and don't cost a mint like radio/television/print advertising.

Instead though... more secrecy and more of a shut-in mentality. It's ass-backwards.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Except I didn't say that would be grateful for an edit please.

Sorry! Fatfingers strikes again. Edit done!

Thanks Osbad
Credit where credit is due!

will edit my post as it no longer makes sense

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I think it's more of a case that the marketing department is aimed more towards crowds that y'know...don't spend time on forums like this.

When they had their own forums, they didn't do a terrible job of 'marketing' new releases. They'd drop hints and then bam, you'd suddenly see an updated "Sneak Peek" posting with some new shinies(usually one for each game system).

Kan, come on. I know it’s a ‘thing’ of ours where you defend GW and I rag on you for being an apologist, but let’s be realistic here:

This is a highly reactionary decision that takes the opposite approach to what they should be doing. Rather than expanding their marketing opportunities, they are further shrinking into themselves in hope that they can ‘control the message’, which is simply impossible in this day and age. In a time where other companies are embracing electronic media and social networking GW seems to be recoiling. This is a mistake. Would Mantic, PP or half-a-dozen others be around if not for electronic media?

This isn’t the early 80’s, no matter how much GW wishes it was. Global communication isn’t just readily available it’s also really simple to do. And while I’m not about to go and call print media ‘dead’ as others have in this thread – I have no real knowledge on the subject beyond what I hear in the news – refocusing all their efforts on White Dwarf is a bad way to compete in this day and age. I’ve always said that they need to leverage WD more than what they do currently, but they cannot do it to the exclusion of all else.

Even GW’s target demographic – the 10-12 year olds – are online. I wasn’t when I was 10 (I had a 386 running Windows 3.0 and Commander Keen 4 was my fav game in the world – the Internet didn’t ‘exist’), but kids today are, and to ignore what almost every company in the world is leaping towards is utter madness and shows a lack of business sense on a scale since... well since the last major fuckup GW was part of (pick one – there’s many).

Well their target market certainly reads gaming magazines. I've had to pay more than my fair share for my little demon seeds. However, those are 3rd party magazines, where GW would have to, you know, advertise. I know its an alien concept to them...

Well their target market certainly reads gaming magazines. I've had to pay more than my fair share for my little demon seeds. However, those are 3rd party magazines, where GW would have to, you know, advertise. I know its an alien concept to them...

It all makes sense now!
GW considers marketing as alien, ie Xenos

Marketing is HERESY!

Kriswall wrote:

Here's an aside... Wizards of the Coast used to print Dungeon and Dragon magazines. They stopped doing so and instead put it online as a paid download pdf in an effort to "embrace the online environment". Readership dropped dramatically and immediately. Piracy of the information contained therein exploded. It was generally considered to be a bad idea.

Your ignoring a heck of alot of other factors there in your quest to make a point- the OGL/GSL debacle, the anger at canceling the magazines in the fashion they did, 4e in general, edition wars, and the fact its behind a paywall without any real look at the quality of acticles in general.

Readership didnt just drop because it went digital. There were other factors involved.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

notprop wrote:Moan, moan, moan, moan, moan!

Its like a bloody mothers meeting in here sometimes.

Never mind sonny I'll put the kettle on and make us all a nice cuppa.

YOU'RE NOT MY REAL MUM, YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!

[slams door, runs to bedrom in tears]

notprop wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

notprop wrote:Moan, moan, moan, moan, moan!

Its like a bloody mothers meeting in here sometimes.

Never mind sonny I'll put the kettle on and make us all a nice cuppa.

YOU'RE NOT MY REAL MUM, YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!

[slams door, runs to bedrom in tears]

Frazzled gets the screwdriver and takes door off hinges
"Mom told you what would happen if you slammed the door. "

Awesome - I wonder what they'll jack the price up to this time?

I actually like this idea if it makes WD worth reading. Back in the 90s I really enjoyed buying video game magazines because you got to see all the new stuff coming out soon. They didnt want others releasing information either too soon

The internet sorta makes new things not as .. interesting because of information overload. My main gripe is that its not much advance time to prepare to throw your money away on plastic men

Its just too bad they had to erect an iron curtain instead of actually embracing the modern age

"So, Mr Tzeentch, you'd like to work in our marketing department? What ideas and strategies would you bring to Games Workshop?"

Frazzled wrote:
Frazzled gets the screwdriver and takes door off hinges
"Mom told you what would happen if you slammed the door. "

Haha that really made me chuckle

If it does make the magazine more readable, then surely that is the diamond in the rather large and stinging nettle-filled rough that GW has created for itself recently.

But I don't hold out any hopes, there is barely a single comment in the magazine now that isn't "xx is just wonderful, I must by more". And the finecast section in the news almost made my eyes bleed, there is absolutely no journalism in it whatsoever. I wonder if the poor sods writing for the magazine have a Fox News esque 'direct line'; "today you will be writing about our new range, I expect the word Finecast to be mentioned in every paragraph" with completed pages going off for a 'content check' after the editing has been done (no doubt carried out by a man with a wide brimmed hat, leather boots and with a monocle).

Anyway.. ahem, the magazine used to be better.

H.B.M.C. wrote:PP has a monthly magazine filled with content that people want to buy*. GW does not

No Quarter is filled with articles on creating custom terrain, reports from tournaments and painting competitions, battle reports, tactical challenges (my favorite), blog-like entries from winners of past tournaments or members of the staff, tactics articles and suggestions on how to grow an army, short stories, league information and rules, and rules and background information for their RPG.

One issue of NQ has more content than 10 issues of WD.

The title says that this was in a news letter. It doesn't seem like this is something GW would put into a news letter. Do you have a screen capture or scan of this news letter?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I want the company to go under, I want Kirby and all those monkeys who run it to lose out on a job.

Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you!!!

Strike them down with all your hatred and your journey towards the GWfugginsucksandshouldburninagony Side will be complete!

Having played 40k for a while now and watched the way they conduct business, i have come to realize that I love their models and the game, and hate just about everything else that the company does, GW grow up or people are gonna play different games(not me though, 40k is too sweet, im gonna keep getting butt pwned by GW)