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Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

That still does not mean that GW is the totality of Wargaming.

To be fair, nowhere is it implied in GW's blurb that they consider themselves the "totality of wargaming"......they've simply implied that they are a hobby unto themselves....which in retrospec is really no big deal

Beg to differ

If they claim to be THE Hobby as claimed then it is implicit that the claim is that they are the wargames hobby.
The fans certainly believe it to be true.

As said before, if this was just some crass marketing boast no one would bother.
When they start acting as though it were the case then hackles are raised.
It is impacting on their behaviour, or at least the perception is that GW have become erratic due to hubris.

Does it really...REALLY matter that much to you?

Who cares if they say that it, those who know they aren't are fine and those who don't know probably don't care for other systems. If they want to find them they will.

Not trying to be a dick over this by the way, sorry if I come across as one.

No
It doesn't

but having explained umpteen times only for you to still not grasp why it is of nominal import relects either on my, admittedly weak, powers of oratory and/or the state of denial that certain people like to wallow in.
It cuts both ways
If you are so happy with the rosy GW garden what I say won't bother you

Again
If people wish to stay with GW I am not going to gainsay their wishes

There seems to be some misunderstanding in this debate.
At an individual level, the gamer is perfectly correct in choosing to stick with a single system if they want, that is NOT what I am bothered about.
The problem I have with the issue is a broader one of how it, if indeed it does, affect GW decision making and their relationship with their customers.

I think we all know GW are up the creek without a paddle at the moment and their self righteousness is a little nauseating but the powers of ignorance are brilliant and I like to use them often regarding GW. (Until Tau come out and if they feth them over god help them!)

Maybe that's why I am reacting like I am ? It's of no personal attack to yourself Chibi, I like most of your views and posts.

Dan
What do you mean "most of my posts"?
What's wrong with the other ones?

No worries mate
Apologies if I got too crotchety, which I presume I must have

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:There seems to be some misunderstanding in this debate.
At an individual level, the gamer is perfectly correct in choosing to stick with a single system if they want, that is NOT what I am bothered about.
The problem I have with the issue is a broader one of how it, if indeed it does, affect GW decision making and their relationship with their customers.

I think there in lies the "issue". GW has a pool of fans, and it appears to be milking them dry. The fans who claim they will "never" turn away are endorsing that treatment. I say, let them get on with it.

It appears that those who have decided to leave, now believe they have a mission to educate those left in the evil clutches of GW. I include myself in this crowd of preachers by the way. However, it is not our responsibility to do that. Sure, another argument is that the more people we can enlighten (as it were) the more players will flock to the systems we have come to enjoy.....well, maybe that's true, maybe not.....but again, it's not our responsibility to advertise these systems. If Corvus Belli want's Infinity to do well, then relying on it's player base should be one of many methods it uses, not its sole primary method.

In short, I think we that have left GW, should wind our necks in, breathe a sigh of relief and move on. Let those that enjoy The GW Hobby, get on with their enjoyment. If they have the funds and are not fussed with paying the prices, enjoy the rules and company policy, then more power to them.

S'all good here Chibi.

I guess I don't get as crazed about this whole issue because I've only been into GW since early 2000's so I guess I never experienced the awesome period before this. Although I don't know how long you've been playing so I can't assume either way but just from my point of view I believe that's probably why.

However - I do play other systems and enjoy them just as much and if not, more than GW but sometimes think the uber hatred of their policies is a bit...too much for a games company maybe?

Chibi Bodge wrote:
That still does not mean that GW is the totality of Wargaming.

If you only collected Transformers, transformers are toys therefore you are a toy collector
Collecting transformers is part of a wider hobby.
What your logic is claiming is that you would, in this analogy, be saying that collecting Transformers IS THE collecting hobby.

Such an attitude is worrying. It becomes narcissistic and unwilling to acknowledge reality other than that constructed by the subject.
There is still a hobby beyond the confines of a single gaming system whether your monogamers are aware of it or not.
They are not the problem with this attitude however.

The problen is that GW are doing there best to assure such people that there is no other god but the one true god.
They have come to believe in their own hype and act according to a false premise.

no one ever said it was the totality of wargaming... That sounds like people who hate GW pounding sand in anger because people play GW games and they want people to play their alternative system.

I have a transformers hobby. I collect transformers things and only pay attention to transformers items, shows, comics, toys, media, movies, conventions and so on. I never said it is the only hobby out there but it is a transformers hobby, especially to me. I do not need to be educated that thunder cats or gijoe are better or equally good and I need tomexpand my pea sized brain to the joys of collecting gijoe toys as part of the gran der toy collecting hobby. I have zero interest in the other franchises and they are not part of my hobby.

GW is more than wargaming and people from dozens of hobbies have reasons to like GW products from painting, sculpting, video games, books... None of those are defaultly wargaming.

GW is a hobby. No one claims it is all of wargaming, even GW doesn't claim it. But it is exclusionary of alternative model and gaming lines. There are people who want nothing to do with anything not GW.

So you are saying wargaming is only concerned with pushing toy soldiers around a table top.
Whereas GW is all the sundry activities as well
But THE Hobby is not the totality of wargaming? Now am confused.

Sounds like you are putting the apple cart before the cherry picking

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:So you are saying wargaming is only concerned with pushing toy soldiers around a table top.
Whereas GW is all the sundry activities as well
But THE Hobby is not the totality of wargaming? Now am confused.

Sounds like you are putting the apple cart before the cherry picking

You mean THE GW hobby? Like it says in the title of the thread?

GW is a group of fictional universes with many non wargaming aspects. Wargaming is just pushing toys around a board. You can be a wargaming hobbyist who shares a love for wargaming great and small, you can be someone who loves space marines and everything related to space marines.

There is a difference, and for some reason it makes some people angry and bitter and they feel like they need to save people from the evils of GW.

Read Delphont's post above
Please don't suggest that I am bitter or angry about GW

Bitter and angry gets reserved for real life and then only if I can't help myself.

Also as per Delphont's comments, am in total agreement about evangelical proselytising. I have never tried to persuade anyone to stop playing Warhammer or reading BL books or playing the video games.

cf my comments about crossed wires also.

RE: "Evangelical proselytizing": It's called word of mouth, or viral marketing (I think. I'm not too big into marketing, so I might be confusing the terms) and it's a highly effective and highly accepted method of marketing. If I, the end user of a system, want that system to be used by more people to expand my range of opponents and get more money into the system creator's pockets so he can, in turn, produce more system, it logically follows that I would speak to people about the merits of the system. In contrast, if a company has lost my business for the most part due to poor system or price gouging, I am absolutely going to let people know about it in an attempt at warning others off, particularly if there is a more affordable or better developed system widely available. Do I have a responsibility to do so? No, but I will absolutely do it because my opinion has value to me and I believe that same opinion will have value to others as well.

So yeah, I mention to new GW players that WM/H is an awesome (read: better written), less costly alternative that enjoys a large and expanding playerbase. Obviously they're free to make what decisions they must, but (at least in my country) I'm free also to mention my preference and argue in favor of said preference. They're even free to ignore me.

Am I angry at GW? No... I'm disappointed in GW. I really like my Space Wolves and appreciate the IG and Grey Knights. Sadly, the prices for miniatures preclude me playing the latter two and rehabilitating the former is going to take me forever. What's more, even if I do update my SW, I know I'm going to have to deal with a clunky, horrible ruleset... which... sucks...

The poll choices were a little incomplete IMHO...

I will continue to play GW games as they have a large following and can be fun in the right setting. I also have expanded out to other, better written games and no longer spend THE MAJORITY of my hobby budget on GW games.

Delephont wrote:Think of the positive side to all of this. When someone, inevitably, becomes disenchanted with the GW Hobby, they will not be put off the Wargaming Hobby, as the two are obviously different

GW has set up a level of "dis-association" which, given their "practices" works in the favour of the wider aspect of wargaming.....in short, quality companies like Corvus Belli, PP, et al, won't be tarred with the same brush as GW......happy days gents!

True, I've actually heard several people express this sentiment when bitching about something one of those other companies did... "Yeah, they did such and such, and that was bad... but hey, at least they're not Games Workshop."

My plan is to continue playing Fantasy & 40k and only buy new rulebooks, then refresh and convert what I got instead of buying models. I got quite a large amount of bitz and cancelled army projects to salvage from.
Though there is a chance my plan will fall apart as soon as an army I really want to collect gets an update, such as Tau, Sisters of Battle and Brettonnia.

Breotan wrote: Other companies' models are also very expensive in most cases and where the models are cheaper they are frequently below GW's sculpting standards.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440032a&prodId=prod460002a


Yes yes, because no one can match those HIGH standards....

carmachu wrote:

Breotan wrote: Other companies' models are also very expensive in most cases and where the models are cheaper they are frequently below GW's sculpting standards.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440032a&prodId=prod460002a


Yes yes, because no one can match those HIGH standards....

Clearly, someone has tried.



It's not hard to pick and choose the worst of a range. The Razorgor isn't the "standard" for GW's quality, just like the Elves aren't necessarily the "standard" for Mantic's quality and you're quite aware of that fact. Resorting to trotting out the Razorgor anytime the mention of "sculpting standards" crops up just reeks of pettiness.

I don't play the games, I only collect/like painting the 40k stuff.

I've played Space Hulk in the late 80s/early 90s, I've played Dawn at War, so I've got a vague interest in Games Workshop.

I don't mind the prices at the minute, but I have definitely noticed a disenchantment amongst longer serving collectors/players. A lot of people baulk at the cost of plastic when metal figures were a lot cheaper.

To be honest, I'm quite happy to spend £20 on a Tau Fire Warrior squad because I know how long it'd take me to paint them to a decent standard (decent for my skill level anyway)

ryzouken wrote:Do I have a responsibility to do so? No, but I will absolutely do it because my opinion has value to me and I believe that same opinion will have value to others as well.

That's where half the worlds problems come from......not so much the part where you believe your opinion has value, but in assuming others believe it has value as well.

Don't get me wrong, it's not unreasonable to vent your spleen about an issue, or alternatively, share your joy in finding something you really like, but there's a fine line between "mentioning" your recommendations, or brow beating someone with your "valuable" opinion.

It should be enough to say in a single post, "I've found this great game and you can find it here at: www.greatgame.com"after that, it's down to the individual what they do. On here, we have post after post going back and forth over the twiching corpse of GW good and evil decision making......perhaps I've said too much

Kanluwen wrote:
Clearly, someone has tried.



It's not hard to pick and choose the worst of a range. The Razorgor isn't the "standard" for GW's quality, just like the Elves aren't necessarily the "standard" for Mantic's quality and you're quite aware of that fact. Resorting to trotting out the Razorgor anytime the mention of "sculpting standards" crops up just reeks of pettiness.

Then there is captain cortez, mr "I have 4 joints in my powerfist", nagash, chaos dwarves, Finecast.....

GW has some great minis. GW also has some real dogs out there. To say no one is up to GW standards is not only foolish, but disengenious as well. There are tons of other minis that are as good, or better then GW. Just as there are other minis that are bad or worse then GW. we can trot off examples pro and against all day,

The pettiness was started long before me.

my 'Hobby' is games , wargames , RPG's , Video Games , Airsoft , Board Games...

I dont over enthuse about GW , for the models I think there overpriced but you can't argue that there the market leaders in variety , currently I am reqworking a load of old marines, but my next project is a Modern Warfare Game using GW parts and some extra market afters , its about the imagination , the 40k Universe has lots of aspects I like , some I truly despise , I dont like there rules , I want a lot simpler ideas.

I am more into skirmish games at the present, Crooked Dice for me , but I wont discount GW in the future.

I am looking forward to Mantic's Warpath , I wont say I wont use the models and ideas for something else.

You just have to get out there and develop what YOU want.

Kanluwen wrote:
Clearly, someone has tried.



It's not hard to pick and choose the worst of a range. The Razorgor isn't the "standard" for GW's quality, just like the Elves aren't necessarily the "standard" for Mantic's quality and you're quite aware of that fact. Resorting to trotting out the Razorgor anytime the mention of "sculpting standards" crops up just reeks of pettiness.

Then there is captain cortez, mr "I have 4 joints in my powerfist", nagash, chaos dwarves, Finecast.....

GW has some great minis. GW also has some real dogs out there. To say no one is up to GW standards is not only foolish, but disengenious as well. There are tons of other minis that are as good, or better then GW. Just as there are other minis that are bad or worse then GW. we can trot off examples pro and against all day,

The pettiness was started long before me.

Delephont wrote:

ryzouken wrote:Do I have a responsibility to do so? No, but I will absolutely do it because my opinion has value to me and I believe that same opinion will have value to others as well.

That's where half the worlds problems come from......not so much the part where you believe your opinion has value, but in assuming others believe it has value as well.

Don't get me wrong, it's not unreasonable to vent your spleen about an issue, or alternatively, share your joy in finding something you really like, but there's a fine line between "mentioning" your recommendations, or brow beating someone with your "valuable" opinion.

It should be enough to say in a single post, "I've found this great game and you can find it here at: www.greatgame.com"after that, it's down to the individual what they do. On here, we have post after post going back and forth over the twiching corpse of GW good and evil decision making......perhaps I've said too much

Half the world's problems come from people believing their opinion matters? Really? That view is so alien to my understanding of the world that I can't even being to scratch the surface of it. It's also hilariously hypocritical; In your opinion, people believing their opinions have value is the basis for half the world's problems. Ergo, it would be better if people would not believe their opinions have value to others, and therefore keep their opinions to themselves unless they're just venting. So your world changing opinion, by your own statement, has no value to others, and should therefore be discarded as random venting.

And you chose to share your opinion, that opinions have no value to others, on a message board intended to share opinions among other goals.

My brain is sufficiently boggled by your statement that I'm going to retire from this thread. I've said my piece on the original topic anyway.

ryzouken wrote:

Delephont wrote:

ryzouken wrote:Do I have a responsibility to do so? No, but I will absolutely do it because my opinion has value to me and I believe that same opinion will have value to others as well.

That's where half the worlds problems come from......not so much the part where you believe your opinion has value, but in assuming others believe it has value as well.

Don't get me wrong, it's not unreasonable to vent your spleen about an issue, or alternatively, share your joy in finding something you really like, but there's a fine line between "mentioning" your recommendations, or brow beating someone with your "valuable" opinion.

It should be enough to say in a single post, "I've found this great game and you can find it here at: www.greatgame.com"after that, it's down to the individual what they do. On here, we have post after post going back and forth over the twiching corpse of GW good and evil decision making......perhaps I've said too much

Half the world's problems come from people believing their opinion matters? Really? That view is so alien to my understanding of the world that I can't even being to scratch the surface of it. It's also hilariously hypocritical; In your opinion, people believing their opinions have value is the basis for half the world's problems. Ergo, it would be better if people would not believe their opinions have value to others, and therefore keep their opinions to themselves unless they're just venting. So your world changing opinion, by your own statement, has no value to others, and should therefore be discarded as random venting.

And you chose to share your opinion, that opinions have no value to others, on a message board intended to share opinions among other goals.

My brain is sufficiently boggled by your statement that I'm going to retire from this thread. I've said my piece on the original topic anyway.

Thats's not quite what I mean't......but you're right about the hypocrisy, I stand accused and admit my guilt.

Of course websites like this are all about opinions, my point was that we can talk till the cows come home, but we argue and get agitated when people disagree with our "righteous" stance because we believe we are right and they are wrong. Put another way, I can tell you my opinion, but I shouldn't automatically assume that you would value that opinion.....why would you? Who am I to you that I should sway your won opinion in any way?

You know what I like Warhammer 40k its a fun game.
Do GW make some dumb mistakes Yes, but they have not made the game not fun to play. So I will playing this game for some time.

In the end its about do you have fun when you are playing if you do I hope you say around if not you do got other games to play.

I'm definitely one for second hand bargains, I only really get FW stuff new (for some reason it seems to cost more on e-bay than it does new - no idea why?). Whilst GW does get a lot of bad press and they've obviously pissed off a lot of people - they still make some nice stuff (esp. the Forge world stuff - and yes they do also make some crap) so whilst they still make things I like - I'll still buy.

carmachu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Clearly, someone has tried.



It's not hard to pick and choose the worst of a range. The Razorgor isn't the "standard" for GW's quality, just like the Elves aren't necessarily the "standard" for Mantic's quality and you're quite aware of that fact. Resorting to trotting out the Razorgor anytime the mention of "sculpting standards" crops up just reeks of pettiness.

Then there is captain cortez, mr "I have 4 joints in my powerfist", nagash, chaos dwarves, Finecast.....

"Finecast" isn't a model. It's a business decision that affects models. Has it worked out? Not really.

Nagash is a model older than some of the players here, and still manages to be better than those Drakon Riders.

GW has some great minis. GW also has some real dogs out there. To say no one is up to GW standards is not only foolish, but disengenious as well.

Please reread my post. I did not say that GW is the end all, be all of models. I said that trotting out the Razorgor anyone brings up the "sculpting standard" for GW reeks of pettiness.

There are tons of other minis that are as good, or better then GW. Just as there are other minis that are bad or worse then GW. we can trot off examples pro and against all day,

Which isn't what you said. You, like every other person with a seeming 'vendetta' against GW trotted out the Razorgor to try to refute Breotan's post about GW's sculpting standard being noticeably higher than the majority of companies out there that are producing cheaper models.

The pettiness was started long before me.

Then grow up and don't resort to a "Well he started it" style of argument. We know that GW has some bad models, but when someone says "the sculpting standard" it applies(pretty clearly) to the standard of sculpts. Not every model range produced by GW is a Dark Eldar, nor is every model range produced by GW a Razorgor. The fact of the matter is though that by and large, GW is the company with a noticeable sculpting standard that consistently draws people in.

I think I simply just resent the whole "GW Hobby" thing because it's basically a marketing ploy intended to sort of wall new players, people who don't know any better. I always just kinda scratch my head when someone says something like "I'm done with the hobby, I'm gonna play (insert non-GW miniatures game here)" or when someone says the hobby as a whole is "ruined forever" because of GW.

I don't know. The whole thing smacks of (a much milder version of) "thoughtcrime is double plus ungood, citizen" to me. Then again, I also go out of my way to not say "Kleenex" when I mean "tissues" or "Xerox" when I mean "photocopy".

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if people are gonna stick with GW,I suppose, I just don't understand why people would want to continue to support a company that blatantly thinks so little of its customers, especially now when there are so many options.

Kanluwen wrote:
"Finecast" isn't a model. It's a business decision that affects models. Has it worked out? Not really.

Nagash is a model older than some of the players here, and still manages to be better than those Drakon Riders.

Only in your mind. Shall we keep going in the GW line? I can find plenty of more dogs. Just as I can find really good ones/

GW has some great minis. GW also has some real dogs out there. To say no one is up to GW standards is not only foolish, but disengenious as well.