Are you staying with the GW hobby?

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**RatBot**

I also think it's worth pointing out that everyone uses Privateer Press as an example, but there are other companies. For example, Mantic sells sets of 20 plastic models for $25 USD, which is a full 10 bucks cheaper (and four to ten more models) than most GW basic troop kits.

I've said it once and I've said it again; look at the price for a full, tournament-ready army. At retail price you won't spend less than 600 bucks on a GW army. A Privateer Press army will run you $250, $300 at most. Other games are even less.

So if you're collecting models just to collect models, then GW isn't the most expensive (It's just the second-most expensive). If you're collecting to play the game, then it's the most expensive company out there.

**ryzouken**

RatBot wrote: A Privateer Press army will run you $250, $300 at most.

I'm looking at a 35 point Ravyn list (Retribution of Scyrah) that clocks in right around $150, not including paint and glue, from secondary sources. Obviously I'd have to bodge my list around a bit depending on what tournaments I was interested in attending, but for a basic army, $150 beats the socks off GW.

In contrast, my 1500 point SW army costs upwards of $500 or so, for the hybrid mech list I'm eyeballing. My triple land raider list was cheaper, but only marginally so (it still hit $300)

As far as the title: mreh. The SW codex update killed my Blood Claw based army pretty hardcore. I'll have to do some paint stripping and bodging if I want to play again, but given the crappy rules GW puts out, I'd rather drop $150 for the Ret army.

**RatBot**

Also, on the "$50 for three models!" point:

Yeah, that 50 bucks for three models for the Khador Battle Box is expensive. But it's also enough to get you started with the game and includes quick start rules.

Now lets say I want to start playing WHFB. Oh, hey, Tomb Kings! I love ancient Egypt, I wanna play those guys. What's the best way to get started?

Well, I should pick up a Battalion Box. Neato, I've got 40 Skeleton Warriors, 8 Horsemen, and 3 Chariots. $130. Oh, but I don't have a general. So I'm going to pick up a Tomb Prince for $15.25. Sweet.

But how do I play this game? Guess I need the rulebook. Hm, the main rulebook is $74.25. Well, let's see if I can get an Island of Blood rulebook off of eBay. Cheapest one I found is $15. All right, now I need the Tomb King Army book, and that's $41.25.

So, to get started with Warhammer Fantasy, with a Tomb King army, I need to spend about $200, just to have everything I need to play. If I for whatever reason can't get an IoB book from eBay, then it's more like $260. This will give me somewhere near 500pts. I'd be looking at another $400+ to get that up to 2000.

Get started with Warmachine, any army at all? $50. Bring that up to 50 points which is the highest point value played at any tournament, plus rulebook and faction book, another $250 or so.

Oh, I forgot the Liche Priest for the Tomb Kings, so add another $15.25.

**infinite_array**

RatBot wrote:Also, on the "$50 for three models!" point:

Yeah, that 50 bucks for three models for the Khador Battle Box is expensive. But it's also enough to get you started with the game and includes quick start rules.

Now lets say I want to start playing WHFB. Oh, hey, Tomb Kings! I love ancient Egypt, I wanna play those guys. What's the best way to get started?

Well, I should pick up a Battalion Box. Neato, I've got 40 Skeleton Warriors, 8 Horsemen, and 3 Chariots. $130. Oh, but I don't have a general. So I'm going to pick up a Tomb Prince for $15.25. Sweet.

But how do I play this game? Guess I need the rulebook. Hm, the main rulebook is $74.25. Well, let's see if I can get an Island of Blood rulebook off of eBay. Cheapest one I found is $15. All right, now I need the Tomb King Army book, and that's $41.25.

So, to get started with Warhammer Fantasy, with a Tomb King army, I need to spend about $200, just to have everything I need to play. If I for whatever reason can't get an IoB book from eBay, then it's more like $260. This will give me somewhere near 500pts. I'd be looking at another $400+ to get that up to 2000.

Get started with Warmachine, any army at all? $50. Bring that up to 50 points which is the highest point value played at any tournament, plus rulebook and faction book, another $250 or so.

Oh, I forgot the Liche Priest for the Tomb Kings, so add another $15.25.

And those are all US prices. What if you're a beginning player in Canada? Or, god forbid, Australia?

**RatBot**

infinite_array wrote:

And those are all US prices. What if you're a beginning player in Canada? Or, god forbid, Australia?

Hell, I'll field that right now.

In Canadian Dollars:

Tomb King Battalion - $140
Full size Rulebook - $90
Tomb King Army Book - $49.50
Tomb King - $19

Total: $300 CAD

In USD: $315

In Australian Dollars:

Tomb King Battalion - $180
Full size Rulebook - $124
Tomb King Army Book - $69
Tomb King - $26

Total: $399.

This is about $435 USD.

Don't know How much Warmachine Starter boxes cost in Canada and Australia, but I'm willing to bet it's a helluva lot less than the above.

But of course, this is a perfectly reasonable price. After all, these are the finest toy soldiers in the world and it is a privilege to participate in the Games Workshop Hobby (TM), which is clearly superior to and distinct from the wargaming hobby in many profound and obvious ways, am I right?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, Privateer Press Battle boxes retail for $55 CAD, which is about $58 USD.

A Tomb King Warsphinx, which is $49.50 USD (50 cents less than a PP Battlebox) is $59.50 in Canada. This is $63 USD.

So, to recap:

$50 USD Privateer Press Product=$55 CAD
$50 USD GW Product=$60 CAD

lolwut

**Delephont**

Well the majority of people (according to the poll) are content to carry on with GW

Personally I think that's great! And, it proves that the GW business model is in fact correct, another win!

I think it's awesome that people love the games in their current form, and the rules and the miniatures. It shows me that my decision to leave GW is probably more to do with me than any real wrong doing on GW's part.

I think this is a very positive outcome guys!

**DrK36**

As most of my friends and myself play 40k and fantasy, I don't really see a reason to not continue with the hobby. However, like several others on here, I do not/refuse to buy directly from GW. My FLGS always has 20% off all GW product, and they're a lot nicer then the folks at GW shops.

**RatBot**

Oh, hey, I found an Australian website selling PP battleboxes for.... $50 AUD. ($55 USD).

So.

Back on topic, it's 44% still buying GW product new, 42% not (second hand model sales do not necessarily directly benefit GW unless the person who is selling the models uses that money to buy new GW models from GW or other stores, and there's certainly no guarantee of that), and 8% other (who may or may not still be buying so) it's a fairly slim majority.

I personally don't think that's great, but at the end of the day it doesn't affect me. I am confident that someday GW will price all these people out of the market as well. On that day, I promise I will try really, really, really hard to not say "I told you so".

**Breotan**

RatBot wrote:Also, on the "$50 for three models!" point:

Yeah, that 50 bucks for three models for the Khador Battle Box is expensive. But it's also enough to get you started with the game and includes quick start rules.

Pay $100 and you and your friend can each have starter armies for Warmachine. Or, for that same money you can get a 40k/WFHB starter containing TWO armies with a lot more models , dice & templates, and a pocket rulebook with all the rules not just quickstart ones. See what I did there?

So, which is the better deal, GW or PP? Well, you can look at it two ways, the total cost of building a tournament competative army versus the cost of buying any given box of models in relation to what the box contains. Yes, a GW army will certainly have a larger total cost in money for a full 2000 point army than whatever the equivelent Warmachine army setup is, BUT... Privateer Press sells you significantly fewer models for your money as well. Mind you, I'm not advocating for either company here, I'm saying they're both expensive. Unless you live in Australia. Yea, GW pretty much shot themselves in the foot with that one.

**RatBot**

Breotan wrote:
RatBot wrote:Also, on the "$50 for three models!" point:

Yeah, that 50 bucks for three models for the Khador Battle Box is expensive. But it's also enough to get you started with the game and includes quick start rules.
Pay $100 and you and your friend can each have starter armies for Warmachine. Or, for that same money you can get a 40k/WFHB starter containing TWO armies with a lot more models , dice & templates, and a pocket rulebook with all the rules not just quickstart ones.

So, which is the better deal, GW or PP? Well, you can look at it two ways, the total cost of building a tournament competative army versus the cost of buying any given box of models in relation to what the box contains. Yes, a GW army will certainly have a larger total cost in money for a full 2000 point army than whatever the equivelent Warmachine army setup is, BUT... Privateer Press sells you significantly fewer models for your money as well. Mind you, I'm not advocating for either company here, I'm saying they're both expensive. Unless you live in Australia. Yea, GW pretty much shot themselves in the foot with that one.

But what if I don't want to play High Elves or Skaven? Or in the case of AoBR, what if I don't want Space Marines or Orks? It's true that PP doesn't have starter sets for the Retribution of Scyrah, Mercenaries, or Minions, but there's a $50 starter set for the other 8 factions, and each of these armies is legal. For another 10 to 20 bucks you can bring those up to 15pts which is generally the smallest points value played in Warmachine. Technically the High Elf army in IoB and the Space Marine army in AoBR aren't even useable. You need 1500 points to use the Prince on the Griffin, and IoB doesn't really come close. As for AoBR, the Space Marine player either has only one troop choice or can't use the flamer and missile launcher.

**ryzouken**

Breotan wrote:
RatBot wrote:Also, on the "$50 for three models!" point:

Yeah, that 50 bucks for three models for the Khador Battle Box is expensive. But it's also enough to get you started with the game and includes quick start rules.
Pay $100 and you and your friend can each have starter armies for Warmachine. Or, for that same money you can get a 40k/WFHB starter containing TWO armies with a lot more models , dice & templates, and a pocket rulebook with all the rules not just quickstart ones.

So, which is the better deal, GW or PP? Well, you can look at it two ways, the total cost of building a tournament competative army versus the cost of buying any given box of models in relation to what the box contains. Yes, a GW army will certainly have a larger total cost in money for a full 2000 point army than whatever the equivelent Warmachine army setup is, BUT... Privateer Press sells you significantly fewer models for your money as well. Mind you, I'm not advocating for either company here, I'm saying they're both expensive. Unless you live in Australia. Yea, GW pretty much shot themselves in the foot with that one.

Sure, we get less models. But then, we need less models. We don't have to buy, for example, 30 ork boyz to have a full size unit, we only have to buy 10 models. Guess what that means? Less spent on glue and paint, less time expended assembling and painting, less spent on foam for carrying our models to and fro... sometimes less is more, particularly since pull and pluck foam isn't the cheapest thing on the planet.

I will note, despite the above, GW did not price me out of "their hobby." They wrote me more or less out of it with garbage rules and pisspoor rules support. I can deal with sky high prices for stuff by buying from the secondary market where possible. Shoddy rules that never really get fixed? A far larger failing. PP's WM/H is SO much clearer and robust.

Best part of WM/H: my 10 meter tall machine of war doesn't stand around for 3 turns with its mechanical thumb up its butt when engaged by an enemy model. It picks up the offender and (2 handed) throws them the hell out of the way! Too bad my 40k Dreadnought throws like a girl, apparently.

Hmm... I wonder how many models would constitute the most swarmy 35 pt WM/H army one could make... off the top of my head I can hit 50 models with Cryx (Bane Thralls and McThralls)...hmm...

**Cottonjaw**

Because I want to play in sanctioned tournaments, I will continue to purchase GW product, and/or convert other models companies within the "51%" rule.

**RatBot**

Also, $100 for two semi-useless starter armies or... well, I'll just leave this here:

http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Getting-Started/Battlesets/Product/Mhorgoths-Revenge-Fantasy-Battleset.html

IoB: 74 minis + rules + dice + measuring sticks + templates for 99 USD with the High Elves not actually being usable.

AoBR: rules, dice, measuring sticks, templates, but only 47 minis. Same price though.

or how about 106 minis + rules + dice for $65 USD, both armies 100% useable.

There's going to be a two-player Warmachine starter set coming out in September. It will be the same price as the AoBR/IoB sets, except it will contain two 15 point armies that are 100% legal and contain a full mini rulebook, dice, and rulers. If you want to play Khador and your friend wants to play Menoth, it will be a great deal (in fact, it'll be better than buying the Khador and Menoth battleboxes seperately since it'll have dice, full rules, and an extra unit for each army). A better deal than either IoB or AoBR. If you don't want to play Khador or Menoth, it'll still be cheaper to get started with another Warmachine faction than it'll cost to get started with another Warhammer faction.

**PapaSmurf**

Trying to get rid of the majority of my GW stuff, still play occasionally but refuse to pay the ridiculous prices they are now asking. Glad I stopped working for them before the fiascos of the spring and early summer - all of which has taken me from a strong supporter to absolute disgust.

reaffirm HMBC - it is NOT the GW hobby, bloody inbred snaggle toothed defectives

cheers

Papasmurf

**dave_salmon**

Comming to Dakka brought me inspiration and worry in equal measure if I'm honest.

Seeing how many of such a large wargaming community are reacting to the way GW are continuing to operate worried me more than a little bit considering I'm only really now getting in to the GW side of the hobby properly after years of dabbling.

To stay I'll be 'sticking with the GW side of the hobby' isn't really accurate, rather I'll cautiously continue to wade in to the GW end of the hobby proper and attempt to ride out the storm hoping my investment (More time and effort than money tbh) isn't wasted.

I'll continue with the GW side of the hobby, buying second hand and drastically discounted stuff from eBay but also look in to other systems in the rest of the TT hobby world (Just bought my first Dust model).

EDIT: Clarified that I meant the GW side of the hobby and not that I thought GW IS the hobby.

**filbert**

dave_salmon wrote:Comming to Dakka brought me inspiration and worry in equal measure if I'm honest.

Seeing how many of such a large wargaming community are reacting to the way GW are continuing to operate worried me more than a little bit considering I'm only really now getting in to the hobby properly after years of dabbling.

To stay I'll be 'sticking with the hobby' isn't really accurate, rather I'll cautiously continue to wade in to the hobby proper and attempt ride out the storm hoping my investment (More time and effort than money tbh).

I'll continue with the hobby, buying second hand and drastically discounted stuff from eBay but also look in to other systems (Just bought my first Dust model).

I really wouldn't worry too much. Even if (and its a very big if) every single current 40K player stopped buying GW stuff right this very day, the large majority of them would still continue to play the game so you needn't worry about buying into a dead game.

Even if GW somehow contrived to go bust, I think it is fair to say the IP would be snaffled up fairly sharpish. So one way or another, GW games are around to stay.

The key point that keeps getting reiterated here is that many will stop buying GW products but that doesn't equate to stopping playing GW products.

**darkPrince010**

Man, the more I look at Mantic, the more I see GW prices as they should be rather than how they are. I still prefer to buy from cheaper sources and/or proxy (50 dwarves for $15? Yes please!: http://www.em4miniatures.com/acatalog/Copy_of_Fantasy.html ).

GW still has high quality figures, quite possibly higher quality than Mantic (not going to open that can of worms), but their prices that they charge are obscene, and I agree are probably stifling some possible new gamers from entering the hobby.

**infinite_array**

darkPrince010 wrote:Man, the more I look at Mantic, the more I see GW prices as they should be rather than how they are. I still prefer to buy from cheaper sources and/or proxy (50 dwarves for $15? Yes please!: http://www.em4miniatures.com/acatalog/Copy_of_Fantasy.html ).

GW still has high quality figures, quite possibly higher quality than Mantic (not going to open that can of worms), but their prices that they charge are obscene, and I agree are probably stifling some possible new gamers from entering the hobby.

You know what? As a fan of Mantic and what they're doing, I'll admit - I, personally, think that GW has higher quality models.

I do not believe, however, that they are so much more higher quality to elicit such an inflated price. I would happily start up a Dwarf or Undead Mantic army - no $70+ dollar rulebook, no idiotically numbered boxes (who fields units of multiples of 16?), and a company that seems to actually care about it's customers.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd much rather play a game with quality rules (as an example, my increasing interest in 15mm and 6mm scale miniatures) than derp around with quality models.

I hope that Mantic releases a 'Empire-esque' army. I'd happily pick up a few boxes, if only to paint.

**darkPrince010**

Exactly. Unless the pay for the model designers bump up the price by $5 per box or more, even the raw volume of plastic and number of sprues is approximately the same. I really would like to support GW, but their stuff is so

expensive that I cannot financially justify it, and it makes me sad.

**marielle**

H. said there's no such thing as a GW Hobby, someone agreed, and then you countered with that it was "perfectly possible to be a wargamer and never spend a single penny on anything other than GW products" as being justification for there being a "GW Hobby". I offered other alternate situations trying to use that same logic, attempting to illustrate via reductio ad absurdum that there's only a "GW Hobby" because you call it a "GW Hobby." To which you offered the intellectual equivalent of "nuh-uh!" At this point was when I reiterated my point, emphasizing the absurdum portion, and then to which you tell me I'm making assumptions, I feel threatened, and that I'm not capable of thinking.

Yeah and I pointed out that I hoover with my Dyson. To which you used long words to avoid engaging with the conversation, before finishing with a rhetorical flourish of offence...

I don't have a GW hobby - though you, for the purpose of building a strawman arguement, assumed I do - but if someone does, or wishes to describe it as such, then it is not for me or anyone to tell them that they don't.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Re: the Australian prices debate

I found this rather interesting - http://www.fighting15sshop.co.uk/faqs-13-w.asp

Obviously it is the process working in the opposite direction.

**studderingdave**

not touching the PP vs. GW deadhorse anymore. people who still argue it need to move on.

i play WHFB on a pretty constant basis, but i dont buy models from GW. if i felt the need to add something, i go to bartertown or ebay.

**RatBot**

marielle wrote:
H. said there's no such thing as a GW Hobby, someone agreed, and then you countered with that it was "perfectly possible to be a wargamer and never spend a single penny on anything other than GW products" as being justification for there being a "GW Hobby". I offered other alternate situations trying to use that same logic, attempting to illustrate via reductio ad absurdum that there's only a "GW Hobby" because you call it a "GW Hobby." To which you offered the intellectual equivalent of "nuh-uh!" At this point was when I reiterated my point, emphasizing the absurdum portion, and then to which you tell me I'm making assumptions, I feel threatened, and that I'm not capable of thinking.

Yeah and I pointed out that I hoover with my Dyson. To which you used long words to avoid engaging with the conversation, before finishing with a rhetorical flourish of offence...

I don't have a GW hobby - though you, for the purpose of building a strawman arguement, assumed I do - but if someone does, or wishes to describe it as such, then it is not for me or anyone to tell them that they don't.

You may not have claimed to have a "GW Hobby" but you did say that it exists, and then said that playing only GW games=GW Hobby. You are confusing branding and marketing with facts. If you play GW games, you are still participating in the wargaming hobby, just a specific part of it. If I were to play only Malifaux and nothing else, am I participating in the "Wyrd Games Hobby"? No, I'm participating in the wargaming hobby, I just only play Malifaux.

Games Workshop defines the Games Workshop Hobbyists thusly, pulled straight from their "About Us" section: "Someone who is involved in the Games Workshop Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain and war games with them in our imaginary universe."

I mean, I have argued this several times, and people like you just don't seem to get it. What in that sentence is different from any other game? Someone who plays Malifaux collects miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain, and war games with them in an imaginary universe. Someone who plays Dystopian Wars collects miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain, and war games with them in an imaginary universe. Someone who plays historical games like De Bellis Antiquitatis, Rapid Fire!, Force on Force, Hail Caesar!, and yes, Warhammer Historicals like Warmaster Ancients and Kampfgruppe Normandy collects miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain, and war games with them, albeit in a less-imaginary universe (though if you're doing something like Vikings vs Babylonians, that probably qualifies as an 'imaginary universe.

Games Workshop is not a distinct hobby. It is not separate from the wargaming hobby. Is is part of the wargaming hobby. If you play only Games Workshop games, that means you are part of the WARGAMING hobby, but are only interested in one particular brand in the wargaming hobby.

I mean, Christ in a fething sidecar, I'm beating my head against a wall here.

**marielle**

You may not have claimed to have a "GW Hobby" but you did say that it exists, and then said that playing only GW games=GW Hobby. You are confusing branding and marketing with facts. If you play GW games, you are still participating in the wargaming hobby, just a specific part of it. If I were to play only Malifaux and nothing else, am I participating in the "Wyrd Games Hobby"? No, I'm participating in the wargaming hobby, I just only play Malifaux.

Games Workshop defines the Games Workshop Hobbyists thusly, pulled straight from their "About Us" section: "Someone who is involved in the Games Workshop Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain and war games with them in our imaginary universe."

I mean, I have argued this several times, and people like you just don't seem to get it. What in that sentence is different from any other game? Someone who plays Malifaux collects miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain, and war games with them in an imaginary universe. Someone who plays Dystopian Wars collects miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain, and war games with them in an imaginary universe. Someone who plays historical games like De Bellis Antiquitatis, Rapid Fire!, Force on Force, Hail Caesar!, and yes, Warhammer Historicals like Warmaster Ancients and Kampfgruppe Normandy collects miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain, and war games with them, albeit in a less-imaginary universe (though if you're doing something like Vikings vs Babylonians, that probably qualifies as an 'imaginary universe.

Games Workshop is not a distinct hobby. It is not separate from the wargaming hobby. Is is part of the wargaming hobby. If you play only Games Workshop games, that means you are part of the WARGAMING hobby, but are only interested in one particular brand in the wargaming hobby.

I mean, Christ in a fething sidecar, I'm beating my head against a wall here.

I don't see why it matters so much to you - just as I don't see why you say 'people like you'.

What you are choosing to ignore - deliberately in my opinion - is that GW is a separate case (and before you leap up and down I would include PP and Battlefront in this catagory) because despite ostensibly being a wargame, it is - they are - different.

A good example is on this forum, someone today asked about 25mm WW1 figures. As this is a period I am interested in I offered a list of manufacturers they might like to consider (regretfully ommiting the rather fine Woodbine figures sold by Gripping Beast). The post following mine was someone suggesting they might consider Death Korps of Krieg figures. Only someone institutionalised inside the the corporate bubble of what I call the 'system game' would think these figures of any use or relevance - seeing as they are 4 times the price, out of period and fairly limited, since they could only really supply one side.

But shouting at people, trying to deny their hobby - beofre reeling off a list of rule sets - is not going to make the slightest difference. If anything it is just going to alienate people and reinforce their view that Death Korps of Krieg are the epitome of wargame figures, Warmahordes is an intellectual game and it's fine to goosestep around with an SS badge on your bag made by a company with a perchant for dodgy lawsuits.

I find it odd that you - who appear so concerned about the wider hobby - should choose to pick on the this part of my previous post (the cliched option) than the rather more interesting link dealing with the question of exchange rates and the realities doing business across national boundaries - allowing for economies of scale.

**Ma55ter_fett**

Until the locals switch to warmahordes...

**RatBot**

Well, perhaps I'm misunderstanding that link entirely, but it looks like a British company that imports Australian miniatures and sells them at a price people think is too high. But that makes sense; the Pound has weakened against the AUD, so it costs them more to import the product, so they need to adjust their prices.

In fact, they say "What Fighting 15s' charges is therefore very much decided by the exchange rate." That's perfectly fair and how things should be run.

Perhaps GW should do something like that with regard to Canadian and Australian pricing, except they can't because there's no reason for them to be charging so much in those countries other than pure greed.

If anything, this furthers the point that GW is screwing Australians hard.

Not sure what your point is unless it's "GW is giving Australians the finger", which we already knew.

**victorpofa**

For now I intend to keep buying for new projects, but I will not be touching Finecast for a good while. I have to use mail order and their quality control is poor. My single FLGS can't afford to be playing swap games with their distributor to replace miscasts, and I refuse to pay shipping to return defective product from internet retailers.

I am also getting into Malifeaux and Dystopian Wars plus I picked up the BattleTech box and have some Monsterpocalypse forces so GW exclusive I am not.

**cadbren**

I'm not buying them from GW stores anymore. We pay a third more for vehicle kits and even more for infantry compared to the UK. I don't believe that freight accounts for a third of the price.
For example, a marine tac squad from the UK site is £23.00, that equates to about 46 of our dollars, so why are they being sold for $73 here? That is about £36.5 for a tac squad, daylight robbery! To make matters worse the average hourly pay is less here than in the UK too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Before any confusion arises, I'm from New Zealand, not Australia.

**nkelsch**

What do you call someone who reads GW books and plays GW video games but doesn't play or collect 40k or fantasy... I suppose if you like anything GW related you are a generic war gamer hobbyist?

This is the fundamental flaw in people who believe all hobbies are generic and brands or fictional universes or brands that cross media lines have zero impact on hobbies.

Liking batman doesn't make you a comic book collector hobbyist. Buying transformers toys and videos and comics don't make you generic toy collector...

There is a GW hobby. For many people if it isn't GW they have no interest because they like the universe and follow GW past mini collecting and wargaming.

**Delephont**

Think of the positive side to all of this. When someone, inevitably, becomes disenchanted with the GW Hobby, they will not be put off the Wargaming Hobby, as the two are obviously different

GW has set up a level of "dis-association" which, given their "practices" works in the favour of the wider aspect of wargaming.....in short, quality companies like Corvus Belli, PP, et al, won't be tarred with the same brush as GW......happy days gents!

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

nkelsch wrote:What do you call someone who reads GW books and plays GW video games but doesn't play or collect 40k or fantasy... I suppose if you like anything GW related you are a generic war gamer hobbyist?

This is the fundamental flaw in people who believe all hobbies are generic and brands or fictional universes or brands that cross media lines have zero impact on hobbies.

Liking batman doesn't make you a comic book collector hobbyist. Buying transformers toys and videos and comics don't make you generic toy collector...

There is a GW hobby. For many people if it isn't GW they have no interest because they like the universe and follow GW past mini collecting and wargaming.

That still does not mean that GW is the totality of Wargaming.

If you only collected Transformers, transformers are toys therefore you are a toy collector
Collecting transformers is part of a wider hobby.
What your logic is claiming is that you would, in this analogy, be saying that collecting Transformers IS THE collecting hobby.

Such an attitude is worrying. It becomes narcissistic and unwilling to acknowledge reality other than that constructed by the subject.
There is still a hobby beyond the confines of a single gaming system whether your monogamers are aware of it or not.
They are not the problem with this attitude however.

The problen is that GW are doing there best to assure such people that there is no other god but the one true god.
They have come to believe in their own hype and act according to a false premise.