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H.B.M.C. wrote:Other than rejecting the very notion of the 'GW hobby'...

As a collective term to include people who play the GW games, people who just paint/collect GW minis,and people who enjoy the fluff and lit, it's perfectly legit.

I know they're evil and all, and you don't like the term because it confuses and corrupts the wee impressionable young'uns, but at least pretend Dakkaites are mature and intelligent enough to know the difference.


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Grot 6 wrote:
I'm Done with them, !@#$ them.

Tired of talking about it...

Heheh. You made a funny.

Yes sir, no one has sculpts that approach GW's standa-

Wait, what's that?

RatBot wrote:Also, on the "$50 for three models!" point:

Yeah, that 50 bucks for three models for the Khador Battle Box is expensive. But it's also enough to get you started with the game and includes quick start rules...

So you're saying a skirmish game with a lower model count is less expensive than a large scale game that uses full armies?

Congratulations, you've proven that small numbers < large numbers.

And I can get over 100 miniatures from Mantic for $65.

You should see the reaction I get from some people when I tried to get them to play 40K and then they found out just how much it'd cost to get started with Tyranids or anything that isn't in the AoBR set. "Oh yeah, just buy the Tyranid, a Hive Tyrant, the Codex, and the Rulebook! It'll only set you back $225! Oh, but you're not done there, you're gonna spend another $300 more at a minimum if you want to play games at the point level most play at."

My point with that post was someone was claiming that "PP charges $50 for 3 models and is therefore no better than GW", except they are because you can play with those three models. If I spend $50 on GW models, that's barely a start. What can I get for that? 20 Orks. 3 Jezzails. 20 Dark Eldar Warriors.

What the hell am I gonna do with just 20 Orks?

I'm keeping my Tau, Dark Angels, and Eldar, but I'm selling my half-finished IG and won't be buying any new product. I just started playing Warmachine at a battle box scale with a friend, and I find that game MUCH more enjoyable. Most local players play 40K, so I will continue playing that, but any new funds from the sell-off of my half-finished IG will go toward a Cygnar WM Army.

Slight correction to my last post.

Orks and Dark Eldar are $29 a box so you can't even get 20 of 'em for $50.

RatBot wrote:
My point with that post was someone was claiming that "PP charges $50 for 3 models and is therefore no better than GW", except they are because you can play with those three models. If I spend $50 on GW models, that's barely a start. What can I get for that? 20 Orks. 3 Jezzails. 20 Dark Eldar Warriors.

When I bought my first car, I went and got a used domestic model. I knew my price range. I would have liked a new, more powerful car, but I couldn't afford the car, the insurance, the gas etc. GW markets to people who want large scale battles. People who don't want to pay for large model counts to play a wargame, can choose WM or Malifaux or Infinity or whatever floats their boat.

The OP's point is still valid. The prices are comparable in some areas between the two companies. The difference is one ruleset needs small numbers of models, the other large numbers. Whether you get more value out of cost per models because the PP rules do not support larger games is a personal choice, based on whether you feel skirmish games are as much fun as large scale games. Saying PP is better value because you need fewer models is like pointing out an economy car is preferable to an SUV or sports car because it's cheaper to run. It's only preferable if you don't want a larger product.

I think this is only because Games Workshop is one of the only companies that actually produces both rules and models for 28mm scale mass combat games (or whatever Warhammer might be considered).

The only other games I can think of that are played at this scale are Mantic's Kings of War and Urban Mammoth's Metropolis. I don't know anything about Metropolis, have never seen it played and don't know if it's even still in production.

Kings of War, though, produces some excellent models (not its elves, before anyone jumps on them). I happen to really like their Undead models, and I can get just under 200 Undead models from Mantic for about $380 if I don't buy any kind of army deal.

Equivalent models from the Vampire Count/Tomb King line would cost $720 (If you buy Tomb King Cavalry) or $900 (if you buy Wight Cavalry which is by all means not exactly spectacular looking). I don't think we can count on the Black Knights going down in price much if they become Finecast, if Blood Knights are any indication.


vs.




I happen to think Mantic's Undead are quite good, and their basic skeletons and zombies are better than GWs. For what reason should all those GW models cost $340 to $500 more than the Mantic ones?

I think that if somehow, some way, more companies began to produce 28mm mass combat rule sets and models, they would pose a serious threat to GW. It's just that they have such a deathgrip on that particular segment. In fact, I have to wonder if competition from other skrimish/space ship/6mm scale games did not play some small part in the demise of Specialist Games. Well, obviously they don't have the same appeal as WHFB and 40K, but I wonder if that's the whole story.


For clarity, this is what I was comparing:
The four-character Mantic pack (Standard Bearer, 2 Necromancers, Revenant King) to GW equivalents
140 Mantic Skeletons to Vampire Count Skeletons (that's 14 boxes, btw)
20 Mantic Revenants to Grave Guard
20 Mantic Revenant Cavalry to Black Knights (or, to throw GW a bone, Tomb Kings Skeletal Horsemen)
4 Mantic Balefire Catapults to Screaming Skull Catapults

That's a 2000 point Kings of War Army. I don't know what kind of army that'd make in WHFB since I don't have the VC book (and, well, the catapults can't be used in a VC army), but either way, Mantic minis are cheaper, whether you want to use them for KoW or WHFB. That could also be used as a Count-As Tomb Kings Army. I think as a VC army this clocks in at something like 2800-3000pts, so if you're playing a 2000 point game, buy some Corpse Carts and say a Varghulf, then buy everything else from Mantic, you'll probably pay half of GW's price for the cavalry, troops and characters.

My local Indepent isnt - hes just chucked in the towel on GW and selling everything GW off half price - chatting to him today , he cites the dramatic sales drop-off since the latest price rise

Im staying with GW games only as long as I enjoy them and dont need to spend stupid sums to continue - Im looking at you Fantasy rulebook at such an insulting price that I sold off most of my Fantasy

Ebay is my new friend for GW Product.
I will still buy paints from them/brushes. But as for new miniatures...no thanks.

Prices are far to steep for my wallet now. :(

I have seen many ranges that make great models but nothing beats the fluff for 40K. I Just love the back story too much.

Dynamix wrote:My local Indepent isnt - hes just chucked in the towel on GW and selling everything GW off half price - chatting to him today , he cites the dramatic sales drop-off since the latest price rise

Im staying with GW games only as long as I enjoy them and dont need to spend stupid sums to continue - Im looking at you Fantasy rulebook at such an insulting price that I sold off most of my Fantasy

Now, that's interesting.

I wonder how many independents will be doing this in the next few months to a year. This is really more important outside of the UK, where independent retailers are much more numerous.

But why are people still discussing GW prices ver' other companies? At this point in time, surely it's a case of "it is what it is"?

I don't get why people feel a need to convince those that chose to spend their coin at GW that they're "wrong" or misguided to do so.

I think the defacto stance should be that each Dakkite is intelligent enough to decide for themselves what they spend their money on and the value of the products they buy....if not, the old saying, "A fool and his money are easily parted" comes into force

Does the stuff FFG does with their RPG books count as staying with the GW hobby?

I fully admit I don't know why it bothers me. I will say even taking into account the vast number of miniatures you need for a GW game, they're ridiculously expensive. Your madness may vary.


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BrookM wrote:Does the stuff FFG does with their RPG books count as staying with the GW hobby?

I would say that, using the GW definition of a "Games Workshop Hobbyist" ("Someone who is involved in the Games Workshop Hobby collects large numbers of miniatures, paints them, modifies them, builds terrain and war games with them in our imaginary universe." - Games Workshop, "About Us" http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=9600007), then no, it does not, even if you believe that GW is somehow a distinct hobby. Again, your and others' madness may vary.

Then I'm the feth out for the time being. Only way they're getting money from me now is through BL.

RatBot wrote:I fully admit I don't know why it bothers me. I will say even taking into account the vast number of miniatures you need for a GW game, they're ridiculously expensive. Your madness may vary.


I'm guessing the markup for our colonial cousins is ridiculous? I don't mind the prices here, I get 20% off because of a staff bonus, but I'd quite happily pay the £20 or so IF I really liked the look of the model. I don't think I'd pay £30/£40 for the same stuff though, and there are the paints on top..

stubacca wrote:
I'm guessing the markup for our colonial cousins is ridiculous? I don't mind the prices here, I get 20% off because of a staff bonus, but I'd quite happily pay the £20 or so IF I really liked the look of the model. I don't think I'd pay £30/£40 for the same stuff though, and there are the paints on top..

Find an Australian and ask them. Their response should be... enlightening, to say the least.

I'll take a look. I think my Space Marine Army, if I bought it now, would cost something like $540 USD, which is about 330 GBP according to google.

Looking at GW UK... it'd cost about 330 GBP to buy it directly from GW UK so... no. Equivalent prices might differ slightly on a unit-to-unit basis, but it looks like an entire army is roughly the same in the UK as it is in the US.

For comparison:

That Mantic army at about $380 USD equals about 230 GBP.
GBP price from Mantic directly would be 230 GBP.

The equivalent GW models would be around 440 to 550 GBP when converted from dollars and I doubt the price from GW UK directly would be much different.


Aussies, on the other hand, get right-out bent over the table. There's a rabid squirrel, a lead pipe, and a fire hose involved. It's messy.

It's just me. I think 540 USD (which is a bit cheap for a GW army, average seems to be 600 USD) for an entire army (not including rules) is not a reasonable price, especially when literally every other miniatures game on the planet is about 100 to 400 USD for a full army includingrules, even the one other game that approaches Warhammer in scale.

I tend to look at games in regard to barrier to entry and "big picture", and in both cases, Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are the worst when it comes to pricing. If you're looking at it as a collector of models, the type of person who sees a model kit and says "hey, these are cool, it'd be fun to paint these" then Warhammer does have an edge over Privateer Press, but that's about it.

BrookM wrote:Then I'm the feth out for the time being. Only way they're getting money from me now is through BL.

So you're not even going to buy books written and made by a completely separate company... but you will buy BL?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrookM wrote:Then I'm the feth out for the time being. Only way they're getting money from me now is through BL.

So you're not even going to buy books written and made by a completely separate company... but you will buy BL?

No, no. He asked if the FFG RPG books are part of the GW hobby, got a 'no', and then said that the only way GW will then be getting his money will be through the Black Library.

Which is nice, I think. With Space Marine/Kill Team/Dawn of War, Deathwatch/Dark Heresy, and GW Specialist games, it's still possible to be engrossed in the 40k universe without paying GW directly.

RatBot wrote: Equivalent prices might differ slightly on a unit-to-unit basis, but it looks like an entire army is roughly the same in the UK as it is in the US.

US and UK, yes, but their prices are noticeably higher in other European countries and Canada, and Australians pay roughly 100% more.

Well, yeah, we all know that. I sort of assumed he meant America when he mentioned colonial cousins as he quoted my post.

But if you include other former British Colonies, like Canada and especially Australia, we find truly, truly outrageous prices. I shudder to think of the price in AUD of the GW equivalent of all those Mantic miniatures up there.

Actually, I just looked it up. $1200 AUD, or $1300 USD. Or they could get that KoW stuff for about $350 AUD, since they'd be able to order from Mantic directly, so they'd pay in GBP, USD, or EUR. Something like $12 AUD shipping at most plus conversion fees if any.

L. O. Fething. L.

I'm sticking with GW.

Nothing else really captures my imagination like Warhammer and 40k and all its bastard Specialist offspring. Its as simple as that.

Kudos to anyone that finds happiness with another company/system, but the ones that I tried are just not my cup of tea.

I will still buy GW stuff, but not nearly as often. Its not my fault I can't afford to buy as much as before, they brought it upon themselves.

Canada gets it in the rear end for GW Prices.
Our dollar is better, but our prices are a few dollars more.

I just bought the 4 chapter masters off ebay, $30 american with Shipping...Which turns out to be $28.30 CDN...

OR go buy it brand new off of gw.com...$50


Where do you think I am going to spend my dollaz?

infinite_array wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrookM wrote:Then I'm the feth out for the time being. Only way they're getting money from me now is through BL.

So you're not even going to buy books written and made by a completely separate company... but you will buy BL?

No, no. He asked if the FFG RPG books are part of the GW hobby, got a 'no', and then said that the only way GW will then be getting his money will be through the Black Library.

Which is nice, I think. With Space Marine/Kill Team/Dawn of War, Deathwatch/Dark Heresy, and GW Specialist games, it's still possible to be engrossed in the 40k universe without paying GW directly.

Yes, this.

I voted "other" because I honestly can't see why I wouldn't "stay with the gw hobby."

I'm in this hobby because I love the 40K universe and setting, not because it's the best game or has the best models.

sgtSixkilla.
Most people on dakka love the 40k/WHFB background.
However, many prefer to use alternative rules and minatures.

If you use the 40k/WHFB as the setting ,(if you own the books with it in, you can use it!)
Then other rule sets often deliver more gameplay using less rules!
But your experiance and opionions may vary.

And you can use the minatures you prefer too....Unless you only play in a GW store.

Why not take the best bits of 40k/WHFB and replace the worst bits ?

Then you have your own hobby, rather than the 'GW hobby (tm)'.

Over the last two years I've been moving away from GW products. All my spraypaints, primers, varnishes, dullcote, paints, brushes, glue and tools are now from other suppliers.

My intent was to shop in GW for minis only. But with the combination of Finecast, Increased price hikes, generally unfair working practices and my own personal distaste for sales tactics and Gaming Centres, I have recently decided to jack it all in.

I will continue to play, as I have two armies and rulebooks etc., but I will not be buying from GW in the future. I will buy OOP and second-hand minis from eBay, but will not even be buying from Wayland or Maelstrom, as this supports GW. I will effectively be embargoing them until such a time as I feel my hobby requirements are met.

It may seem churlish, but I am churlish so there you are.