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More guns, fewer points, and they're better able to put that firepower where it's needed.

That is not the SW's fault, it is the fault of the guys that wrote a unit has to all fire at the same taget even if they have different weapons.
"Whatchyou doin pointinn to bazooka at a tank fo soldja, get it pointed at dem grunts with de rest of yo platoon!"

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

More guns, fewer points, and they're better able to put that firepower where it's needed.

That is not the SW's fault, it is the fault of the guys that wrote a unit has to all fire at the same taget even if they have different weapons.
"Whatchyou doin pointinn to bazooka at a tank fo soldja, get it pointed at dem grunts with de rest of yo platoon!"

Sure, the core rule might be something that doesn't make total sense, but it's not something that any army but SW's really has an exception to either. It's an SW specific rule that makes their fire support units just that much more capable than equivalents, really for no good reason.

Has anyone who is complaining about split fire long fangs bothered to read the fluff behind that ability?

Hint: It has nothing to do with the hyper senses. If it did then the entire space wolf army would be able to split fire. The fluff reason is because of there age and experience.

Blame the writers who make the stuff up, not the subjects of the rules.
Can understand people being puzzled tbh as there ought to be some form of parity.

Maybe it can be addressed with 6th ed but prolly won't

Normal Devastators can split fire, but they have to combat squad to do it. The reason Long Fangs are annoying is not because they can split fire, but the fact that they can do without any draw backs like regular Devastators

Luke_Prowler wrote:Normal Devastators can split fire, but they have to combat squad to do it. The reason Long Fangs are annoying is not because they can split fire, but the fact that they can do without any draw backs like regular Devastators

What Drawbacks other than prices?

Anpu42 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Normal Devastators can split fire, but they have to combat squad to do it. The reason Long Fangs are annoying is not because they can split fire, but the fact that they can do without any draw backs like regular Devastators

What Drawbacks other than prices?

Combat squads count as two separate kill points, right?

Commisar Wolfie wrote:Hint: It has nothing to do with the hyper senses. If it did then the entire space wolf army would be able to split fire. The fluff reason is because of there age and experience.

I'm not sure if that is truly better...

But thanks for pointing this out, it at least does not read as stupid - now I just think this is something other armies with such experienced warriors should have as well.

[edit] Obviously in a balanced fashion, i.e. potentially requiring other limitations to make it work.

No arguement there. Just tired of seeing people complain about something and not even having it correct.
The long fangs are at least limited in that they can only split fire as long as the squad leader is there.

Commisar Wolfie wrote:Has anyone who is complaining about split fire long fangs bothered to read the fluff behind that ability?

Hint: It has nothing to do with the hyper senses. If it did then the entire space wolf army would be able to split fire. The fluff reason is because of there age and experience.

Right, nobody has said anything to the contrary, but again, why does an army of space vikings apparently have the most experienced and capable heavy weapons troops in the game? Especially over other armies where such troops are far more prominent.

Actually I have read a few posts complaining about split fire and it being because of the hyper sense. All I was doing was pointing out the actual fluff reason for the split fire. I never claimed it was the best reason as to why the space wolves have it or otherwise. Beyond that the previous codex had the exact same rule for the long fangs and I never heard anyone complain about it then. But to answer your question it is because the Space Wolves ARE better then all the other chapters. They stayed true to their primarch instead of bowing down to RB and doing what he wants since he somehow became the new expert on all things.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Normal Devastators can split fire, but they have to combat squad to do it. The reason Long Fangs are annoying is not because they can split fire, but the fact that they can do without any draw backs like regular Devastators

What Drawbacks other than prices?

Combat squads count as two separate kill points, right?

True IF you do break them into Combat Squads [I have done it in the past]
Personaly I would rather have the 4 Meat Shields added to my Long Fangs

Commisar Wolfie wrote:Actually I have read a few posts complaining about split fire and it being because of the hyper sense. All I was doing was pointing out the actual fluff reason for the split fire. I never claimed it was the best reason as to why the space wolves have it or otherwise. Beyond that the previous codex had the exact same rule for the long fangs and I never heard anyone complain about it then.

Probably because they were more than a third again as expensive for a full missile squad and only had 4 heavy weapons, coupled with the fact that after 3E (and especially after 2E when their book was even more powerful in a metagame sense, topped only by the Eldar who still are feeling the nerfing from 1998) they disappeared from the gaming scene in most places until late 2009 so nobody ever saw them. Just like you didn't see many questions about the LR Exterminator either from IG players who lost access to it for 6 years, because they just weren't taken very often and SW's were a rather rare army.

But to answer your question it is because the Space Wolves ARE better then all the other chapters. They stayed true to their primarch instead of bowing down to RB and doing what he wants since he somehow became the new expert on all things.

Other than a moral victory in their own minds born of a silly sense of self rightousness, how exactly does that make them better than all other chapters? It's still kinda silly that the Vikings-in-Space army has the best long range static fire support infantry unit in the game, especially over other Astartes forces where they play a far greater role.

Vaktathi wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

More guns, fewer points, and they're better able to put that firepower where it's needed.

That is not the SW's fault, it is the fault of the guys that wrote a unit has to all fire at the same taget even if they have different weapons.
"Whatchyou doin pointinn to bazooka at a tank fo soldja, get it pointed at dem grunts with de rest of yo platoon!"

Sure, the core rule might be something that doesn't make total sense, but it's not something that any army but SW's really has an exception to either. It's an SW specific rule that makes their fire support units just that much more capable than equivalents, really for no good reason.

Sit down, get a snack, cause I'm gonna tell ya a cool story bro.

editBTW... This post is not directed directly at the guys I quoted above, your posts just happen to be good a good lead in.

Its obvious that many posters never played against a 3.0 SW army, even fewer have read the old codex, and probably some couldn't even (without google) tell me what the cover looked like. You want to know why the SW units are like they are, its because they have always been this way.

Counter attack. Why do all SW units have counter attack? Because they have always had it. However, it used to be different. It used to allow the wolves to pile in when charged so that all their guys can get their swings in. Sound familiar? Now all armies have the old version of counter attack for free. So GW rewrote it to give it something to do. Its just right now a pretty powerful one. However, I personally expect the +1 attack to be changed to something else not quite so complainable when 6th ed. comes around.

Wolf named items have always existed in the SW codex. Yeah we gained a few but we even lost one, who remembers Wolf Pelts? I sure as hell do, they were awesome. You know what they did... +1 attack when counter attacking. Ring a bell? The SW wargear hasn't changed much. I miss my healing balms and a few other choice items. However, one change that SW got in the new codex that I really do not see any reason for is the change from lightning claw to wolf claw. Yeah the ability changed so a new name was needed, but the change shouldn't have happened in the first place. There is no reason for it. I'm in total agreement with others that it was unnecessary.

Long Fangs. Have always had the ability to split fire. Were always a small unit with no ablative wounds. And cost a ridiculous amount of points. As such, they were rarely used. So they got a modification in the new codex to make them more attractive. Yeah, they might have gone too far, but anyone who has been with GW longer than 4 years knows all about the power pendulum swing.

As for fluff... LF are the grizzled vets of the SW army. They have the most battle experance, some even more than our Wolf Lords. In a normal SM army, devistators are the young guys who managed to graduate out of scout school. Keep them back, let them observe and gain exposure without putting them directly in harms way. Totally different paths the warriors take.

Grey Hunters and BP/CCW/Bolter. Grey Hunters used to be armed with Bolters and CCW, they also had something called True Grit. True Grit doesn't exist anymore. What it used to be was basically you got to treat the bolter as a pistol in HTH, but you didn't get +1 for charging. So they always had two attacks didn't matter if they charged, got charged, or were into their 4th round of combat. The new rules gives them the same 2 attacks in HTH during consecutive rounds, with a small bonus for charging and sometimes when being charged. Was it necessary, well since True Grit doesn't exist, if you gave them just bolter and CCW they would be no better off than tacticals. And GH are not supposed to be tacticals. If you gave then BP/CCW then they are assault marines. But players would bitch because they lost their iconic bolters. I honestly think this was the better choice, also once counter attack gets changed to something else and the newest SM codex brings tactical down to 15 points (plus whatever new army wide special rule shows up), I think a lot of the complaining will go away.

Bloodclaws - used to cost 13 points and could bring 3 P-fists onto the table for stupid cheap. I know that most older SW armies had 2-3 units of BC and maybe one unit of GH (because they got ridiculously expensive). But like the long fangs. The GW pendulum swing is always in motion, so this is now what we got. I'd love to still be able to take a unit of 15 and get 9 P-fist swings on the charge. Those days are over however. Those of you who never faced it can count your blessings.

Multiple HQs - The old codex required that you take 1 HQ for every 750 points of army roster. So at 1501 you had to take 3 HQs. Giving the current SW codex 4 HQs isn't that big of a deal, its just that some people will abuse and spam that option. Sorry for those of you who have to play against it.

Rune Priests - We've always been able to have them. However they used to be HTH combat monsters with just a single power. But welcome back oh pendulum swing. They now are fairly meh in HTH but do their killing with powers. Are the powers over the top, depends on what is on the other side of the table. But people focus on what they hate. However as for fieldability, nothing has changed. Every SW army I or my friends ever made has a Rune Priest in it. Nothing has changed, no reason to not take one now.

Scouts - Not that anyone is complaining about them, but our scouts are experanced Grey Hunters. Not the young pups of other Chapters. They have always had behind enemy lines... something of a novelty that has been lost with the addition of outflanking and even other armies now having the ability to come in on the opposite board edge. They are what they have always been.

So seriously, the Wolves are now, how they always have been. Maybe a little bit better in some areas than SM, worse in others. However, they do accomplish one thing. They play totally different than the normal SM codex. So in that regard the codex is a huge success. As for bandwagoning. With the release of the GK codex, I've not seen any counts as GK armies using SW rules. If the Chaos codex wasn't so udderly bland of options you wouldn't see any chaos counts as SW codex. I think most people who use normal marines and are counts asing right now are emulating the BA codex because there is nothing in it you can't field.

Now, if you still want to hate, feel free to hate. But at least be smart about it and know how the army your hating on has progressed so you just pull stuff out of thin air that is totally wrong and unfounded.

Jayden63 wrote:
Sit down, get a snack, cause I'm gonna tell ya a cool story bro.

So they've always had it, we all know that. They don't need to also be cheaper for it. They used to be more expensive for being better than regular Space Marines, they still should be.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:
Sit down, get a snack, cause I'm gonna tell ya a cool story bro.

So they've always had it, we all know that. They don't need to also be cheaper for it. They used to be more expensive for being better than regular Space Marines, they still should be.

I'd love to be able to run 10 TH/SS termies for 400 points instead of 630.

Point savings are where you spam them. Cheap and effective units can be found in every codex. The WAAC guy knows how to spam them. Those of us who genuinely play for the fun of the game run skyclaws and what not.

I understand all those points. SW's had many of these things in the last book. Nobody is debating that or claiming they are new. However the issue is that the army effectively just ends up being "Space Marines...but BETTER!" (silly in and of itself and the cause of much of the hate, why do they need to be just plain better man for man than say, an Imperial Fist or a a Raven Guard marine, who don't spend as much time doing ridiculous stuff and drinking and whatnot?), and coupled with insanely low pricing and how much better 5E counterattack is (which, for all intents and purposes has primarily been an SW specific rule being available only to maybe half a dozen units outside of SW's if that, so it's hard not to see they didn't realize what they were doing with that ability) means that unless one just *needs* some of the more niche units from other marine books (thunderfire cannons, defilers, etc) it's very hard not to make the jump to Space Wolves, they've become *the* bandwagon army of the last two years.

As to how they play, they actually, if anything, almost exactly like Undivided CSM armies, but with more guns and Razorbacks, kinda like what Iron Warriors wish they could be I could swap my CSM army over to C:SW and change...half a dozen non-tank models I think, and end up with what largely looks like a fairly standard SW tournament force, but have more points to play with, more guns, and better special rules (no, I'm not actually advocating doing this). Much of the army feels like they took C:CSM, took out the Cult units and Chaos-y stuff, and slapped in the loyalist equipment/rules and added a couple extra for good measure and cut the cost by 15%. They took the best parts of both C:SM and C:CSM, trimmed the fat, cut the cost and added sprinkles basically. It doesn't help that the competitive builds the army incentivizes play very far from what most would imagine SW armies as. Most don't imaging half a dozen or more tanks and a force lavishly equipped with enough heavy weapons to make IG jealous and incredibly potent psyker support when they think of Space Wolves. But that's what's popular and *that* is what the codex incentivizes.

So sure, it's a little different from C:SM, but lets not forget that pre- oct2009 that the average C:SM army was already going full mech and min/max razorbackspam already as well, SW's just did it better and swapped ironclads and land raiders for Long Fangs and Rune Priests.

Fluff side, there's the issues of game balance with the army. Game balance aside, there's issues with the armies fluff of not quite being able to make up its mind of what it wants to be, some atrocious writing, and a feeling of "we're different, but different can't just mean different, it means it also has to be *BETTER*!". It basically feels like they're trying too hard, and trying to be too many things. When such a state exists, of course there will be e-hate.



In all honesty, I've yet to see more than one unit of any "-claw" unit in an SW army since 2009 (and even then, *only* bloodclaws IIRC), wherever these "fun" players are, I wish I saw them more often.

no reason to not take one now.

Whenever one can say this about a non-troops unit, something is wrong.


All this said, I'd really like to love the SW's, I really really would. If they really did the "vikings in space" thing well, as opposed to simply tacking something norse sounding onto everything that doesn't have some sort of Wolf moniker and thinking that Vikings=drunk pranksters, they'd be awesome. In all honesty, the Carcharodons (space sharks) and in some ways even the Black Templars fit the Viking mold better than the SW's. Sure the SW's have the imagery of Vikings, but it's the other chapters that maraud their way through space from small bases and spend most of their time on ships and seeking out new enemies and realms.

Botten3 wrote:Please explain your reasoning clearly, I would like to hear your reasoning.

Pet Dander, there is no Allegra in the 41st Millennium

Its obvious that many posters never played against a 3.0 SW army

That comment cuts both ways. Those of us who DID play against them back in the day are probably more than a little annoyed.

Half of my old group in Texas ran that codex, pre-update. Lots of longfangs, even then...because cover was not quite so abundant, and vehicles were just slightly more delicate than they are now. Hordes of chainfist WG and IC led blood claws with powerfists and PWs falling out their wolfy-wolfs, and back then? I was cool with it.

Why might this be, one would ask? Well, these bloodclaws were also generally marching into the teeth of a whole bunch of lasplas squads backed up by devastators and terminators of both the "Stab it!" and "Shoot it with the assault cannon with the OLD rending rules!" variety....and to boot, there was no LRC for them to hide in at the time.

However, they nerfed my tacticals, assault cannons, and devastators. Kinda ticked off, frankly. Now I content myself to running the opposition over with a land raider and having the TH/SS jump up and down on their head, followed by attaching the bodies to the land speeders with rope and having them do donuts over the battlefield so the sternguard can get some target practice on the trailing metal kites...But watching the old staples (One of which you can't exactly just NOT buy, or have a realy viable alternative to for most situations...) get nerfed into the ground -that- hard, followed by GW apparently realizing its mistake (to varying extents...) in successive MEQ codices? Yea, quite aggravating.

Commisar Wolfie wrote:Has anyone who is complaining about split fire long fangs bothered to read the fluff behind that ability?

Hint: It has nothing to do with the hyper senses. If it did then the entire space wolf army would be able to split fire. The fluff reason is because of there age and experience.

What a load of nonsense.

What all that age and experience that all the other Marine chapters' veterans must obviously lack because they um... are all noob-marines compared to the grizzzlly old drunken viking furry guys??

There's no way to excuse it, or the vast undercosted overpowered, flexibile "nyah nyah my list is awesome because it can't not be" , cheaper cheaper cheaper power power power, the way people don't actually HAVE to attempt to fulfil their sagas or take pride in each man's individuality (a point strongly emphasized in the fluff, just conveniently not the rules) in how they are armed (just suggestion.. and of course an unspoken rule if they are riding Thunderwolves - but that itself is just another form of munchkinism) or the overpowered psykers or well.. most of it...

it sold books and toys to munchkins (and the ocasional true fan who does not play the same tired oveused net list, my heart goes out to you as you suffer the enmity caused by your munchkin comrades-in-arms and the horribly thought out rules set they were thrust to spoon up like an overful bowl of stupid awesomeness.

Vaktathi wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

More guns, fewer points, and they're better able to put that firepower where it's needed.

That is not the SW's fault, it is the fault of the guys that wrote a unit has to all fire at the same taget even if they have different weapons.
"Whatchyou doin pointinn to bazooka at a tank fo soldja, get it pointed at dem grunts with de rest of yo platoon!"

Sure, the core rule might be something that doesn't make total sense, but it's not something that any army but SW's really has an exception to either. It's an SW specific rule that makes their fire support units just that much more capable than equivalents, really for no good reason.

Tau have an exception in the form of Commander Shadowsun.

Chaos Daemons have an exception with one of their Tzeentch upgrades IIRC.

And all armies have an exception when it comes to Spearhead games.

SOFDC wrote:
However, they nerfed my tacticals, assault cannons, and devastators. Kinda ticked off, frankly. Now I content myself to running the opposition over with a land raider and having the TH/SS jump up and down on their head, followed by attaching the bodies to the land speeders with rope and having them do donuts over the battlefield so the sternguard can get some target practice on the trailing metal kites...But watching the old staples (One of which you can't exactly just NOT buy, or have a realy viable alternative to for most situations...) get nerfed into the ground -that- hard, followed by GW apparently realizing its mistake (to varying extents...) in successive MEQ codices? Yea, quite aggravating.

Welcome to CSM World. A change in Studio mindset and BAM! Your codex suuuucks!


Space wolves have had a Cheesy gak codex since the first one (THE first codex) in 2nd edition. For no reason at all (except for JJs "Gray Marines" perhaps).

yeenoghu wrote:

Commisar Wolfie wrote:Has anyone who is complaining about split fire long fangs bothered to read the fluff behind that ability?

Hint: It has nothing to do with the hyper senses. If it did then the entire space wolf army would be able to split fire. The fluff reason is because of there age and experience.

What a load of nonsense.

What all that age and experience that all the other Marine chapters' veterans must obviously lack because they um... are all noob-marines compared to the grizzzlly old drunken viking furry guys??

There's no way to excuse it, or the vast undercosted overpowered, flexibile "nyah nyah my list is awesome because it can't not be" , cheaper cheaper cheaper power power power, the way people don't actually HAVE to attempt to fulfil their sagas or take pride in each man's individuality (a point strongly emphasized in the fluff, just conveniently not the rules) in how they are armed (just suggestion.. and of course an unspoken rule if they are riding Thunderwolves - but that itself is just another form of munchkinism) or the overpowered psykers or well.. most of it...

it sold books and toys to munchkins (and the ocasional true fan who does not play the same tired oveused net list, my heart goes out to you as you suffer the enmity caused by your munchkin comrades-in-arms and the horribly thought out rules set they were thrust to spoon up like an overful bowl of stupid awesomeness.

Read the codex and you'll see that is the reason given behind the ability. Did I ever say that it was a valid reason as to why the space wolves can and regular marines can't. No I didn't. Although codex marines maynot split fire because of something in the codex astartes, I don't know. I was simply pointing out the fluff reason behind the split fire ability as not being the hyper sense smell thing that people were saying it was. Also I believe that the devastators of codex chapters are not the veterans of their armies that the long fangs are. Remember that there is no first company of veterans like codex chapters and that Wolf gaurd are not that numerous.

You also have three classes of Space Wolf Players
1] Old School [and new players can fall under this catagory] that are playing Space Wolves beouce of the ability to costimize [both list and models] and could care less about SPAMing your opponent to deeath, they just want to go out there and have your opponent go "Thats a cool looking army!".

2] WAAK Players who only see the rules and plays SPAM becouse he can feield a bucket of Metla/Missle Launcher List no matter how boring it is. These are the ones who are currently bringing the hate on us.

3] The Hybrid, this is me I usaly field 2 Pack of Grey Hunters with 2 Pladma Guns and one Pack of Long Fangs with Missle Lanchers. The Rest of my list is filled with the cool stuff, Lone Wolves, Characters, Wolf Scouts and such. i usaly ty to theme my list, and keep them "Fluffy".

I think if more players used option 1 or 3 there would be a lot less hate.

Anpu42 wrote:You also have three classes of Space Wolf Players
1] Old School [and new players can fall under this catagory] that are playing Space Wolves beouce of the ability to costimize [both list and models] and could care less about SPAMing your opponent to deeath, they just want to go out there and have your opponent go "Thats a cool looking army!".

2] WAAK Players who only see the rules and plays SPAM becouse he can feield a bucket of Metla/Missle Launcher List no matter how boring it is. These are the ones who are currently bringing the hate on us.

3] The Hybrid, this is me I usaly field 2 Pack of Grey Hunters with 2 Pladma Guns and one Pack of Long Fangs with Missle Lanchers. The Rest of my list is filled with the cool stuff, Lone Wolves, Characters, Wolf Scouts and such. i usaly ty to theme my list, and keep them "Fluffy".

I think if more players used option 1 or 3 there would be a lot less hate.

Agreed. I faced a SW player that was built on 5 x grey hunter, 1 x wolf scout and 1 x long fang. It was disgustingly difficult to beat! The problem of course is that it required a tactically sound general to play it correctly. The #2 of the world lead to disgust when you see 15 missile launchers for the umteenth time.

If tears were oil, this thread alone could end the United States dependency on foreign oil!

Jayden did a pretty good breakdown on what Space Wolves were and what they have become. All that continued afterward was more,

"Well my codex can't do the same thing!! WAAAAAHHHH!"

However, lets expand on what Jayden points out and even actually look at the continued comparisions between the Wolves and Space Marine. Wait for it......here it comes......

IT IS A CRAP COMPARISON CONSIDERING THE AGE OF THE SPACE MARINE CODEX!!!

Anyone miss that? If you want a true comparison look to the Blood Angels codex and the Grey Knights codex. When you are facing Assault Marines as troops, DoA, and discounted fast tanks, suddenly Counterattack and Acute Senses are not the big scary monster in the closet. When you have squads full of NFW, Hammerhand, and offhand storm bolters. suddenly having a bolt pistol/bolter/ccw is not overpowered.

But hey, whiners gonna whine, haters gonna hateand, and neither will pay attention to probably anything I just wrote so let's continue with the faulty comparison;

Space Wolves: Grey Hunters; Leadership 8

Leadership 8: Yea, that spiffy Counter-attack everyone keeps complaining about, is tested on that nice leadership 8. But hey, so is pinning, morale checks to shooting, and morale checks to losing assault.

Grey Hunters do not get a nifty little sergeant in the pack to boost leadership. Grey Hunters need to get a Wolf Guard pack leader to get that leadership boost which costs 3x, since you have to buy them in 3's and also costs a Elite FOC slot.

This also plays into army composition as well. A SM tactical squad is 9+1, full geared with special and heavy weapon. No problem fitting in their transport or combat squading and still having half the unit able to run in a transport. Grey Hunters are 10. If we drop one member to get a Wolf Guard and fit in a transport, we lose a special weapon. We can't combat squad, so there is never 10+1, splitting up and still allowing a transport.

This leads into the next point;

Space Wolves: Grey Hunters: No Combat Squads

When Space Wolves want to play the MSU Razorspam game they use up one FOC Troop choice as well as the Elites FOC slot to add the Wolf Guard for one Razorspam MSU unit.

Well Space Marines get their nifty Combat Squads which allows them to have their MSU unit, Sergeant, +4 and also have their heavy weapon combat squad sitting in cover, either home objective sitting or providing additional long range missile fire.

Break it down;

The difference between 3 Wolf Guard with 3 Grey Hunter Razorspam MSU and 3 Combat squaded, SM Tactical Razorspam MSU is 261 pts. That 261pts is an additional 15 Space Marines, split up into 3 additional non-FOC Troop choices, and 3 missile launchers.

That same 261pts to the Space Wolves players is the saving from having to use a Elites FOC slot, having less bodies, and having less heavy weapon support.

And you are going to whine and cry about Counter-attack, Acute Senses, and bp/bolter/ccw?

Since there is so many tears about Long Fangs, lets look at them next;

Space Wolves: Long Fangs versus Devastators:

6x Long Fangs w/5x ML costs 140pts.

10 Devastators w/4x ML costs 230pts.

Back to the wonder of Combat Squads, the Devastators can now fire at two separate targets, JUST like the Long Fangs, albeit with 1 shot less.

The first casualty on the Devastators does not effect their ability to deliver long range fire one bit. The first casualty on the Long Fangs eliminates Spilt Fire. The second casualty on Devastators does not affect long range fire. The second casualty on the Long Fangs and they have now had their long range fire reduced by 20%. This does not include whatever value can be placed on losing Split Fire on the initial casualty.

And thus it plays out that when the first Devastator with a missile launcher is finally removed and their long range fire is reduced by 50%, the Long Fang pack will lost 60% of their long range fire, discounting the value placed on losing Split Fire on the first casualty.

The kicker is that is only one of the Devastator combat squads. The other Devastators are still firing two missile launchers and still have 3 bolter SM with them to absorb wounds. The original Devastator pack is still firing at 75% (1 left in one combat squad, 2 left in the other) while the Long Fang pack is now down to 40%. 90pts to remain at 75% long range fire efficiency? That is a bargain.

And again, you still want to whine about Counter-attack, Acute Senses, and bp/bolter/ccw?

As I first mentioned, make a valid comparison instead of just crying about what the older SM codex lacks in in view of the Wolves codex. Hell even the fluff comparison is a not valid when you compare the SW codex to the new fluff being presented in the BA and GK codices.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Jayden did a pretty good breakdown on what Space Wolves were and what they have become. All that continued afterward was more,

"Well my codex can't do the same thing!! WAAAAAHHHH!"

Please read the thread before responding. No one rational is complaining that Space Wolves are better than Space Marines, they're complaining because Space Wolves are better, but also cheaper.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Jayden did a pretty good breakdown on what Space Wolves were and what they have become. All that continued afterward was more,

"Well my codex can't do the same thing!! WAAAAAHHHH!"

Please read the thread before responding. No one rational is complaining that Space Wolves are better than Space Marines, they're complaining because Space Wolves are better, but also cheaper.

Vak does twice on this page alone and he seems pretty rational when he isn't crying about the Space Wolves and tries to make a comparison between them and Space Marine Tactical squads.

And I pointed out that being cheaper is not necessarily a good thing when the extra points spent open up options the Space Wolves do not get.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
"Well my codex can't do the same thing!! WAAAAAHHHH!"

if you equate discussion and comparison with "waaaahhh"

IT IS A CRAP COMPARISON CONSIDERING THE AGE OF THE SPACE MARINE CODEX!!!

You mean, less than a year older than Codex: Space Wolves?

Anyone miss that? If you want a true comparison look to the Blood Angels codex and the Grey Knights codex. When you are facing Assault Marines as troops, DoA, and discounted fast tanks, suddenly Counterattack and Acute Senses are not the big scary monster in the closet.

GH's are noticeably better than Assault Marines lets not try and say otherwise. Descent of Angels is of highly situational utility and means little in the popular mechanized armies. The Fast tanks are a factor yet, but not *that* big. The bigger thing with BA's is Baals as FA units and Blood Talons able to carve through entire Ork mobs in one round of CC (hooray no-retreat!). BA's can't pack in the firepower and dumbers that SW's can, which is what makes the real difference in power level between the two.

When you have squads full of NFW, Hammerhand, and offhand storm bolters. suddenly having a bolt pistol/bolter/ccw is not overpowered.

These are of marginal utility against many foes, they don't mean much against tanks or weeny infantry. They mean lots when fighting other Space Marines, but they aren't cheap and die like other marines, meaning it's easier to destroy them as there are fewer of them. They also don't have the same array of fighting vehicles that most other marine chapters have and limited (though admittedly strong) options for long range firepower (basically just rifleman dreads).

Space Wolves: Grey Hunters; Leadership 8

Leadership 8: Yea, that spiffy Counter-attack everyone keeps complaining about, is tested on that nice leadership 8. But hey, so is pinning, morale checks to shooting, and morale checks to losing assault.

Yeah, so those abilities are going off nearly 75% of the time, and most units will have an Ld9 Wolf Guard sergeant attached so it's sorta moot. You'll notice basic Tac marines are also Ld8.

Grey Hunters do not get a nifty little sergeant in the pack to boost leadership. Grey Hunters need to get a Wolf Guard pack leader to get that leadership boost which costs 3x, since you have to buy them in 3's and also costs a Elite FOC slot.

rarely an issue as few armies don't take at least 3 and Elite slots in SW armies aren't exactly in huge demand or competition.

This also plays into army composition as well. A SM tactical squad is 9+1, full geared with special and heavy weapon. No problem fitting in their transport or combat squading and still having half the unit able to run in a transport. Grey Hunters are 10. If we drop one member to get a Wolf Guard and fit in a transport, we lose a special weapon. We can't combat squad, so there is never 10+1, splitting up and still allowing a transport.

The tac squad rarely gets a whole lot of use out of its Heavy, lets be honest. Additionally the Wolf Guard sergeant is noticeably cheaper than a Marine sergeant (whcih contribute 30pts to squad cost instead of 18) and has significantly cheaper upgrade options, with combi-weapons being half the cost and powerweapons 5pts off as well, in addition to having more options in total.

Space Wolves: Grey Hunters: No Combat Squads

When Space Wolves want to play the MSU Razorspam game they use up one FOC Troop choice as well as the Elites FOC slot to add the Wolf Guard for one Razorspam MSU unit.

While it might be cool, as close range assault/shooty units or min/max razorspam units, not a huge loss. You're either going to play them like CSM units (which don't want to split up as they're assault oriented) or you're taking a small unit anyway.

Well Space Marines get their nifty Combat Squads which allows them to have their MSU unit, Sergeant, +4 and also have their heavy weapon combat squad sitting in cover, either home objective sitting or providing additional long range missile fire.

Which is cool and all, and can definitely be useful, but again, of limited value given the GH's wargear, options and abilities.

The difference between 3 Wolf Guard with 3 Grey Hunter Razorspam MSU and 3 Combat squaded, SM Tactical Razorspam MSU is 261 pts. That 261pts is an additional 15 Space Marines, split up into 3 additional non-FOC Troop choices, and 3 missile launchers.

That same 261pts to the Space Wolves players is the saving from having to use a Elites FOC slot, having less bodies, and having less heavy weapon support.

This is a bit disingenous as you're only looking at FoC slots, which rarely get totally filled, especially with SW's. Those points could buy you another min/max GH Razorback unit and Predator.

And you are going to whine and cry about Counter-attack, Acute Senses, and bp/bolter/ccw?

Given how much more powerful they make those units...yup.

6x Long Fangs w/5x ML costs 140pts.

10 Devastators w/4x ML costs 230pts.

Back to the wonder of Combat Squads, the Devastators can now fire at two separate targets, JUST like the Long Fangs, albeit with 1 shot less.

1 shot less, 90pts more, no Counterattack, no Acute Senses (makes a difference for Night Fight games)

The first casualty on the Devastators does not effect their ability to deliver long range fire one bit. The first casualty on the Long Fangs eliminates Spilt Fire. The second casualty on Devastators does not affect long range fire. The second casualty on the Long Fangs and they have now had their long range fire reduced by 20%. This does not include whatever value can be placed on losing Split Fire on the initial casualty.

Right, the Devastators are hardier. Nobody is saying this isn't true.

However, given the much greater first turn alpha strike capability (which is *huge* in 40k), the smaller points costs allowing for more firepower and units elsewhere, and the fact that units like Devastators and Long Fangs often don't come under attack quickly against many opponents, it's very difficult to say that the Devastators are anywhere near on par.

The kicker is that is only one of the Devastator combat squads. The other Devastators are still firing two missile launchers and still have 3 bolter SM with them to absorb wounds. The original Devastator pack is still firing at 75% (1 left in one combat squad, 2 left in the other) while the Long Fang pack is now down to 40%. 90pts to remain at 75% long range fire efficiency? That is a bargain.

And yet, you see Devastators in Marine armies...how often?

Infrequently at best, certainly not routinely 3 of them. You're way over-emphasizing the survivability aspect here.

Often by the time an enemy can engage these units, they've already done their job.

And again, you still want to whine about Counter-attack, Acute Senses, and bp/bolter/ccw?

Again, yes.

And I pointed out that being cheaper is not necessarily a good thing when the extra points spent open up options the Space Wolves do not get.

there's relatively little that SW's don't get that other Marine books do barring specialty niche units like Sanguinary Guard and thunderfire cannons. They still get all the basic vehicles and weapons, and in fact generally each of their units typically has as many or more options than equivalents.

The only one I see whining and crying in here is you, Tyr.

Any valid point you might make is overshadowed by the bile you're spewing on top of it. Perhaps its because deep down inside he knows we're right.

Methinks he doth protest too much...?