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Brother Coa wrote:

Maybe not bigger but they can definitively beat it with their fleet.

Are you actually saying the Space Wolves fleet could beat the entirety of the Segmentum fleet? It was stated earlier so I'll just quote it again:

Vaktathi wrote:
Battle Barges aren't designed for ship to ship warfare, they are planetary assault ships. When facing an Imperial Navy Battleship which designed for ship to ship warfare, they are at a distinct disadvantage and must rely on attempting to board their opponents, and at best, they've got half a dozen battlebarges and maybe a dozen strike cruisers and perhaps as many escorts. A Segmentum fleet consists of thousands of Cruisers, Battlecruisers, Battleships and many more escorts.

Space Wolves wouldn't have a chance against even a quarter of a Segmuntum fleet.

Well, personally, I like them. The only reason I don't play them is that I don't enjoy their color scheme. Some people find them ridiculous, but it's all a matter of perspective. Faster than light travel that takes place through imaginationland is okay, I guess, so long as no one is riding a big wolf around. Or saying 'wolf' too much. But magic is perfectly reasonable.

It's all a matter of personal taste. I'm not going to knock anyone else for what they like. (I don't like Eldar, but I don't see a reason to go on anti-Eldar tirades all the time.) If you play Space Wolves, just ignore it.

Vaktathi wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
They have 12 great companies, each one is roughly the size of Space Marine Chapter ( around 12.000 ).

Where on earth are you getting that? The SW codex says that Ragnar's Great Company, as the second mightiest behind Grimnar's, numbers merely 200. So if the mightiest are roughly 200 strong and the others are smaller, perhaps 100-150, then roughly 2,000 Marines sounds appropriate.

Check out the Battlefleet Gothic stats on SM ships versus IN ships, and the numbers involved. They're free from GW on the website.

A typical SM chapter will have 1-3 Battle Barges, 4-12 Strike Cruisers, and about as many smaller Escorts. SM and IN escorts are generally the same vessel types, Strike Cruisers generally will not stand toe-to-toe with IN cruisers (they are designed to get SM's to battle and provide fire support, not destroy enemy starships), and Battlebarges only match IN Battleships because of their very powerful boarding capabilities. You'd need 5-7 SM chapters to rival a Sector Battlefleet.

A Segmentum is huge, comprised of hundreds of Sector battlefleets each of which on average have about 75 capital ships (which actually is a fairly ludicrously low number of ships for the stated area a Sector covers, you'd realistically need tens of thousands to adequately patrol/protect such areas) in addition to probably double or triple that number of escorts. It would take the massed might of the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes to match a single Segmentum Battlefleet, even then I'm not sure it'd be even.


Also, remember that the Ecclesiarchy doesn't exactly have fleets of its own beyond transport vessels (nor are they renowned for battlefield command ability, fervor/fanaticism/devotion yes, but not exactly competent military command capability) and the Sisters of Battle aren't the largest of forces either nor do they command any sort of weapons/training/experience for battles involving siege/aerial/space warfare.

Vaktathi wrote:Check out the Battlefleet Gothic stats on SM ships versus IN ships, and the numbers involved. They're free from GW on the website.

A typical SM chapter will have 1-3 Battle Barges, 4-12 Strike Cruisers, and about as many smaller Escorts. SM and IN escorts are generally the same vessel types, Strike Cruisers generally will not stand toe-to-toe with IN cruisers (they are designed to get SM's to battle and provide fire support, not destroy enemy starships), and Battlebarges only match IN Battleships because of their very powerful boarding capabilities. You'd need 5-7 SM chapters to rival a Sector Battlefleet.

A Segmentum is huge, comprised of hundreds of Sector battlefleets each of which on average have about 75 capital ships (which actually is a fairly ludicrously low number of ships for the stated area a Sector covers, you'd realistically need tens of thousands to adequately patrol/protect such areas) in addition to probably double or triple that number of escorts. It would take the massed might of the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes to match a single Segmentum Battlefleet, even then I'm not sure it'd be even.


Also, remember that the Ecclesiarchy doesn't exactly have fleets of its own beyond transport vessels (nor are they renowned for battlefield command ability, fervor/fanaticism/devotion yes, but not exactly competent military command capability) and the Sisters of Battle aren't the largest of forces either nor do they command any sort of weapons/training/experience for battles involving siege/aerial/space warfare.

The 50-75 ships already include escorts if i read BFG right. Still, even an escort is a kilometre+ long warship than bristles with weapon batteries and will easily have the firepower to level a city.
Still, a segmentum will have about 200000 planets with between 2000 and 1000 sectors each ( assuming a sector has between 100-200 planets ) which will all have at least 50 warships ( excluding planetary defence vessels ). Thats at least 50000 spaceships, 25 times the maximum number of Spacewolfs

Regarding the op's question, the Spacewolfs had the potential for awsome fluff. What we got was juvenile wish fulfillment which approached the level of realy bad fanfic. These days they seem to have a permanent "get out of jail" card for no matter what kind of nonsense they do, there will be no real consequences.
Abnett's idea of turning the smallest legion into the Emprah's executioners ( wtf? ) is also one of his worse ideas.

Still, the basic idea of Vikings in Space! is still a nice one, it is just the current execution which is severely lacking.

I hate them because of their fluff. First I think their fluff is pretty dumb, Plus I play Dark Angels and them and the Wolves dont really get along to well because of how dumb Leman Russ is. Also I hate the Rocket Launcher spam that Space Wolves have. I think its overkill. Still after a long time after their codex came out Wolves are still extremely tough. They got such a good 'dex its not even funny.

They're furries.
They're a strong codex.

There are a lot of reasons.

I could go on about them being less expensive yet better than other marines, but that's not what really makes me dislike them.

It's their fluff. Canis Wolfborn has been mentioned. Their ttly ossim special snowflake qualities, like firing artillery by smell and rushing forward with the artillery to watch the explosions, they are schizophrenic in their theme, as someone else mentioned earlier. They're blatantly hypocritical (No seriously, I loved the "Space Hipsters" analogy Vaktathi, mind if I use it? ) and ignorant in their views of psykers. Oh, and they somehow are not asexual, apparently, because feth year REAL MEN do wmnz!!! The fluff, similar to their tabletop incarnation, of course treats their equivelants to other marine units as being obviously superior. They have plot armour that is thick even by Marine standards. But you know, I could forgive all of that... If they weren't so incredibly boring. The Space Wolf codex was one of the most boring reads in recent memory, how GW managed to make a concept like "Space Vikings" come off as so dull is insanity... And that's another thing, where exactly is the "viking" aspect? This is more a peeve of mine, what the hell makes them vikings? Because they drink ale and have Nordic names? Viking was a profession, one the Space Wolves do not fit.

Void__Dragon wrote: They're blatantly hypocritical (No seriously, I loved the "Space Hipsters" analogy Vaktathi, mind if I use it? )

I didn't actually come up with it, LoneLictor came up with it in a great post here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/383580.page

LoneLictor wrote:

Oh my god. I just realized something. Space Wolves are hipsters.

"We don't use pyskers, but rather priests who summon the innate power of Fenris. You probably haven't heard of it."

"Yeah, we don't use the Codex Astartes. We even have a 13th Company. You probably haven't heard of it."

"Our geneseed gives us extralong K-9 teeth and more body hair and turns some of us into Wolfren. You probably haven't heard of them."

Some of you are complaining about Rocket Spam, in which I don't do

Vaktathi wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote: They're blatantly hypocritical (No seriously, I loved the "Space Hipsters" analogy Vaktathi, mind if I use it? )

I didn't actually come up with it, LoneLictor came up with it in a great post here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/383580.page

LoneLictor wrote:

Oh my god. I just realized something. Space Wolves are hipsters.

"We don't use pyskers, but rather priests who summon the innate power of Fenris. You probably haven't heard of it."

"Yeah, we don't use the Codex Astartes. We even have a 13th Company. You probably haven't heard of it."

"Our geneseed gives us extralong K-9 teeth and more body hair and turns some of us into Wolfren. You probably haven't heard of them."

Odd, I read that thread and don't recall that post, or the ones preceding it.

Good stuff though.

Oh this reminds me, forgot to mention this, I can't for the life of me figure out why the Space Wolf chapter has not been declared heretics, considering their blatant pagan beliefs and the times they have actually attacked the Imperium.

Void__Dragon wrote:Oh this reminds me, forgot to mention this, I can't for the life of me figure out why the Space Wolf chapter has not been declared heretics, considering their blatant pagan beliefs and the times they have actually attacked the Imperium.

That's the biggest problem, imho. The lack of consequences.

It's completely okay that they've bashed a few Imperial and Ecclesiarchy heads, sport some of the most obvious geneseed mutation of the entire Astartes, or routinely say "lolno" to the Inquisition - but at some point you'd have to think there would be consequences. But there are none. Ever.

Lynata wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Oh this reminds me, forgot to mention this, I can't for the life of me figure out why the Space Wolf chapter has not been declared heretics, considering their blatant pagan beliefs and the times they have actually attacked the Imperium.

That's the biggest problem, imho. The lack of consequences.

It's completely okay that they've bashed a few Imperial and Ecclesiarchy heads, sport some of the most obvious geneseed mutation of the entire Astartes, or routinely say "lolno" to the Inquisition - but at some point you'd have to think there would be consequences. But there are none. Ever.

I think it is because they are the original Legion chapter, actually the one of few who hold the Imperium together in times after the heresy. As that is - they hold the very hard word toward everything in the Imperium.
Trying to declare them as heretics and traitors is the same as trying to declare Imperial Fist or Ultramarines heretics and traitors - it just can't go because that chapters have a heavy mane on themselves.

But the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists haven't attacked friendly forces.

Imperial Fist fired upon Imperial navy when Ultramrines suggest codex Astartes.
And what would happened if HLoT decide to take direct control over Ultaramar?

They only need reason and for now the Imperium only wanted to sniff around Space Wolves, imagine what would happened in they decide to investigate Rock...

Lynata wrote:That's the biggest problem, imho. The lack of consequences.

It's completely okay that they've bashed a few Imperial and Ecclesiarchy heads, sport some of the most obvious geneseed mutation of the entire Astartes, or routinely say "lolno" to the Inquisition - but at some point you'd have to think there would be consequences. But there are none. Ever.

I think you're probably right, it's one of the more annoying bits of the fluff, that they are such special snowflakes they can get away with whatever they damn-well please.

Brother Coa wrote:I think it is because they are the original Legion chapter, actually the one of few who hold the Imperium together in times after the heresy. As that is - they hold the very hard word toward everything in the Imperium.
Trying to declare them as heretics and traitors is the same as trying to declare Imperial Fist or Ultramarines heretics and traitors - it just can't go because that chapters have a heavy mane on themselves.

You're thinking of the Ultramarines. What the hell did the Space Wolves do to hold the Imperium together?

And oddly enough, the Imperial Fists were being declared traitors by Roboute Guilliman for their refusal to accept the Codex Astartes... Something the Space Wolves also refused. Yet were never called out on.

coolyo294 wrote:But the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists haven't attacked friendly forces.

Dark Angels have. Anything happen to them? NOPE

Void__Dragon wrote:You're thinking of the Ultramarines. What the hell did the Space Wolves do to hold the Imperium together?

Like almost everyone else - send their Marines across the galaxy to help defend the Imperium. And answer to distress call for any major event ( Armageddon, Cadia )

And oddly enough, the Imperial Fists were being declared traitors by Roboute Guilliman for their refusal to accept the Codex Astartes... Something the Space Wolves also refused. Yet were never called out on.

SwiftLord14 wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:But the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists haven't attacked friendly forces.

Dark Angels have. Anything happen to them? NOPE

Do you have a source for this happening with it's not in secret because they want to hide their terrible truth?

They arent hated, they are overpowered (well thats is what people voted on poll), but overall I dont hate em, and i dont really like em

iproxtaco wrote:

SwiftLord14 wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:But the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists haven't attacked friendly forces.

Dark Angels have. Anything happen to them? NOPE

Do you have a source for this happening with it's not in secret because they want to hide their terrible truth?

"The Chapter leadership will go to great lengths to ensure that this knowledge does not reach the Imperium at large, even at times going so far as to disobey direct orders from Inquisitors and cause overly curious individuals to "disappear"."

So if you start to dig around Rock - they dig you, in the sky... Only problem is none has ever caught them in that.

Botten3 wrote:Some of you are complaining about Rocket Spam, in which I don't do

well we arent talking about you are we?

Brother Coa wrote:Like almost everyone else - send their Marines across the galaxy to help defend the Imperium. And answer to distress call for any major event ( Armageddon, Cadia )

That's kind of not what I meant. Of course they fight for the Imperium. EVERY Space Marine chapter does.

Brother Coa wrote:That was before they shake hands. Dorn didn't want for another civil war ( now for stupid reason ) and decided that this was probably for the best.
But I bet that they have some secret agreement for Guiliman and Imperium to overlook Space Wolves and Black Templar numbers...

And Dorn accepted the Codex Astartes. The Wolves did not, but no one cared. I guess because they're Space Wolves.

The Black Templar numbers are far beyond Codex Astartes allowance, but the key difference is the Black Templars do not engange in blatantly heretical or traitorous behavior. The Space Wolves do.

iproxtaco wrote:

SwiftLord14 wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:But the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists haven't attacked friendly forces.

Dark Angels have. Anything happen to them? NOPE

Do you have a source for this happening with it's not in secret because they want to hide their terrible truth?

In the Space Wolf Books. Ragnar and his peoples were running after them to see why they were there and being all sneaky and they opened fire on them. Hitting but not killing another Wolf Blade.

I don't like them coz I is Dark angel.


..Nah seriously though, I just don't like their fluff...same reason I don't really like Blood Angels. Having giant genetically altered spacemen isn't enough so they have to make them space vikings and space vampires? they just took the whole thing too far for me...

considering their blatant pagan beliefs and the times they have actually attacked the Imperium.

Two very good reasons to like SW's

Why is Space Vikings bad, when you have Space Knights/Templars/Romans etc?

I can understand some of the raw codex hate. Things seem undercosted. But IMO the IG codex does it worse with Vendettas, Plasma vets, chimeras etc.

However, people like to compare like to like. So they compare them to Codex marines (because the wolves are supposed to be marines). Never mind the what 3 yr age difference. They compare it to the Chaos codex which is 4 years old.

Never mind that since the IG codex every codex (except nids) has been stronger than the Marine and Chaos codex. The wolves are no more OP than IG, BA, GK, and even DE (when played right) to an extent. In fact I feel that the latter codex are quite on par with power. It just sucks for the other 11 codexs that have all come before them. (nids really do get the raw deal on this one)

Fluff... well thats totally a personal taste. You either like that the wolves are not autonomous marine drones like every other chapter presents, or you hate them because they are in fact different than your own pet chapter of marines and should be similar.

As for differences and seemingly contradictions in fluff. Well, there is more than 1 writer for GW fluff and since GW cant afford even an editor, how the hell can anyone expect them to keep someone on staff to make sure things stay congruent. Different writers have different interpetations on how the Wolves should be... and write to what they like, often not seemingly to both looking too deep into what someone else has already written.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

SwiftLord14 wrote:

coolyo294 wrote:But the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists haven't attacked friendly forces.

Dark Angels have. Anything happen to them? NOPE

Do you have a source for this happening with it's not in secret because they want to hide their terrible truth?

"The Chapter leadership will go to great lengths to ensure that this knowledge does not reach the Imperium at large, even at times going so far as to disobey direct orders from Inquisitors and cause overly curious individuals to "disappear"."

So if you start to dig around Rock - they dig you, in the sky... Only problem is none has ever caught them in that.

Good job reading my qusetion , but BrotherOmas has provided. Since it's against the Space Wolves, and didn't kill anyone, I can see why they weren't hunted down. Not a good thing to do, far from it, but nothing compared to the insubordination the Space Wolves show.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

considering their blatant pagan beliefs and the times they have actually attacked the Imperium.

Two very good reasons to like SW's

Why is Space Vikings bad, when you have Space Knights/Templars/Romans etc?

Why is it good to be special snowflakes who are oh so special they can get away with blatant heresy and insubordination?

They are not Space Vikings. Drinking ale and slapping Nordic names on everything does not a Viking make.

I don't mind them trying to follow a Nordic theme. That's not really the complaint anyone has made, that I can recall.

I would like to point out that the space wolves are not the most numerous Space Marine chapter.

That title is reserved for the Black Templars, numbering an estimated 5-6000 marines.