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Nobody objects to their awesomeness, just their cost methinks. It is not just slightly out-of-line for the game effect, which can happen between codex release or different rules. that turns the munchkin players armies into carbon copy spam.. it is drastically underpriced.

I think my ultramarine vets can split their fire too, they would have white beards too but they shave. The company I play will just import its missile lunchers from Fenris. If that's not cool... then neither is spamming the obvious again and again at the expense of other people's desire to play with me.

Methinks when C:SM gets an update the buzz about SW will be over for all but the core players that would have been SW anyway.

I've always wanted to point at the fluff for Long Fangs and say ," my army includes Dante, the oldest living space marine. Because of his leadership and experience each individual Blood Angel in my army except scouts may aim and fire his weapon independently."

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
And I pointed out that being cheaper is not necessarily a good thing

Sorry, no one should be listening to you anymore. You agree they are better, and then you say being cheaper isn't a positive. That level of insanity doesn't get to participate in discussions.

Hell compare a wolf guard with a fist/combi melta vs the same armed vanilla sgt variant:

Wolf guard - 43pts (+counter attack and acute senses)
Vanilla - 61pts

Oh no I give up an elite slot that I wasnt going to fill anyway. Most of the space wolf elites are underwhelming, unless you want some riflemen dreads in there to compliment the 20+ missile shots.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Normal Devastators can split fire, but they have to combat squad to do it. The reason Long Fangs are annoying is not because they can split fire, but the fact that they can do without any draw backs like regular Devastators

Except at most LF can field 6 models, all valuable and typically within 1-2 wounds they lose their leader and thus their split fire ability anyway. A devastator squad can fill 5 spaces with wound taking bolter marines and yes if they want to they can combat squad.

Long Fangs have their weaknesses but let's just ignore those to prove a point

Kijamon wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Normal Devastators can split fire, but they have to combat squad to do it. The reason Long Fangs are annoying is not because they can split fire, but the fact that they can do without any draw backs like regular Devastators

Except at most LF can field 6 models, all valuable and typically within 1-2 wounds they lose their leader and thus their split fire ability anyway. A devastator squad can fill 5 spaces with wound taking bolter marines and yes if they want to they can combat squad.

Long Fangs have their weaknesses but let's just ignore those to prove a point

Their weaknesses are over-shadowed completely with stupid advantages, but lets just ignore them to prove a point.

iproxtaco wrote:

Kijamon wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Normal Devastators can split fire, but they have to combat squad to do it. The reason Long Fangs are annoying is not because they can split fire, but the fact that they can do without any draw backs like regular Devastators

Except at most LF can field 6 models, all valuable and typically within 1-2 wounds they lose their leader and thus their split fire ability anyway. A devastator squad can fill 5 spaces with wound taking bolter marines and yes if they want to they can combat squad.

Long Fangs have their weaknesses but let's just ignore those to prove a point

Their weaknesses are over-shadowed completely with stupid advantages, but lets just ignore them to prove a point.

What would you do to them?

Increase the points by a few per model? I could understand that but I wouldn't go overboard with the costs.

Remove split fire? Well then I'd wonder why? It'd go against the fluff and it'd make them a poor choice over a predator or a vindicator.

Limit their weapons loadout to 0-2 of each weapon? That'd be a bit ridiculous IMO, it makes tactical sense to have a unit full of the same weapon for range and knowing what to use each squad for.

Most people have problems with the space wolves meta game and the use of transports to pulverise opponents. That isn't the codexes fault. That's the must win at any cost brigades fault.

I hate space wolves because one sunny day in 2002 a puppies player said, "pull my finger"

Kijamon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Kijamon wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Normal Devastators can split fire, but they have to combat squad to do it. The reason Long Fangs are annoying is not because they can split fire, but the fact that they can do without any draw backs like regular Devastators

Except at most LF can field 6 models, all valuable and typically within 1-2 wounds they lose their leader and thus their split fire ability anyway. A devastator squad can fill 5 spaces with wound taking bolter marines and yes if they want to they can combat squad.

Long Fangs have their weaknesses but let's just ignore those to prove a point

Their weaknesses are over-shadowed completely with stupid advantages, but lets just ignore them to prove a point.

What would you do to them?

Increase the points by a few per model? I could understand that but I wouldn't go overboard with the costs.

Remove split fire? Well then I'd wonder why? It'd go against the fluff and it'd make them a poor choice over a predator or a vindicator.

Limit their weapons loadout to 0-2 of each weapon? That'd be a bit ridiculous IMO, it makes tactical sense to have a unit full of the same weapon for range and knowing what to use each squad for.

Most people have problems with the space wolves meta game and the use of transports to pulverise opponents. That isn't the codexes fault. That's the must win at any cost brigades fault.

Increase their points. If it's going to be so much better, at least make it more expensive by a significant margin. Not everything in the codex needs 101 reasons why they're so awesome compared to their Codex marines equivalent.
And yes, it is the damn codices fault for allowing such over-powered options in the first place. Or more correctly, it's Phil Kelly's fault.

6 pages on why space wolves are overpowered.

Please continue, my fellow Dakkanese.

terranarc wrote:6 pages on why space wolves are overpowered.

Please continue, my fellow Dakkanese.

We're Dakkanaughts...

purplefood wrote:

terranarc wrote:6 pages on why space wolves are overpowered.

Please continue, my fellow Dakkanese.

We're Dakkanaughts...

I refuse to label you all as Dramanaughts despite the accuracy.

terranarc wrote:

purplefood wrote:

terranarc wrote:6 pages on why space wolves are overpowered.

Please continue, my fellow Dakkanese.

We're Dakkanaughts...

I refuse to label you all as Dramanaughts despite the accuracy.

You'd be one too. One of us, one of us, one of us.

iproxtaco wrote:

terranarc wrote:

purplefood wrote:

terranarc wrote:6 pages on why space wolves are overpowered.

Please continue, my fellow Dakkanese.

We're Dakkanaughts...

I refuse to label you all as Dramanaughts despite the accuracy.

You'd be one too. One of us, one of us, one of us.

Join us...

Ravenous D wrote:Hell compare a wolf guard with a fist/combi melta vs the same armed vanilla sgt variant:

Wolf guard - 43pts (+counter attack and acute senses)
Vanilla - 61pts

Oh no I give up an elite slot that I wasnt going to fill anyway. Most of the space wolf elites are underwhelming, unless you want some riflemen dreads in there to compliment the 20+ missile shots.

One will only be getting the more than 18 ML shots if you add Wolf Guard with Cyclones to the LF... Thus giving up an Elite slot.

One will only be getting the more than 18 ML shots if you add Wolf Guard with Cyclones to the LF... Thus giving up an Elite slot.

Or take land speeders. You could theoretically have 33 missiles flying across the board a turn before a single missile equipped elite choices gets set down on it. (Excluding HK missiles.)

My wolves run with WG sergeants. With the loss of one elite slot (Which is truly horrible, as the elites rack for SW have so many options that warrant spending the points on over troops/FA/HS....) I put a sergeant in my GH and LF packs, and if I decide I want to bump the WG pack up to 10 to give me a few terminators to put in a pod or a raider (Which I tend to do anyway..) oh dear...I have two cyclone slots made availible in the process! I am truly chewing my elite slots up at an incredible rate!

What would you do to them?

Increase the points by a few per model? I could understand that but I wouldn't go overboard with the costs.

Not a darn thing, were I in charge of GW. I would reduce the devastator costs accordingly, or, give them an equivalent special rule. Perhaps a signum that is actually useful? (Reroll cover saves ala null zone, ignore cover, BS5 for all heavy weapons, what have you.) because ....in a lean list, dumping 80 more points per squad for a ghetto version of split fire, adding kill points to your list, and somewhat academic durability is a bit hilarious.

Wow this page got out of hand fast! lol I just wanted to hear some reasoning on why they are renowned as a very OP army. I now see your points, thanks everyone

Kijamon wrote:
Except at most LF can field 6 models, all valuable and typically within 1-2 wounds they lose their leader and thus their split fire ability anyway. A devastator squad can fill 5 spaces with wound taking bolter marines and yes if they want to they can combat squad.

At about 65% more points and with fewer guns.

Long Fangs have their weaknesses but let's just ignore those to prove a point

If you'd bothered to actually read the thread and the arguments, you'd see this has already been addressed. The super cheap cost, split fire ability, and extra weapon combine to make a greater fire support unit, especially for turn 1 alpha strikes, than Devastators are.

Again, there is a reason you rarely see Devastators in SM armies, and almost never 3, while 3 units of Long Fangs are Tournament Standard.

Kijamon wrote:

What would you do to them?

Increase the points by a few per model? I could understand that but I wouldn't go overboard with the costs.

They're grossly undercosted, lets be honest. Even at an additional 5ppm (making a 5x ML squad 170pts) they'd still be probably the most cost effective infantry fire support unit in the game. Tossing another 15 to account for the split fire ability to get 185pts would probably be the most reasonable answer. Then they're still very effective, and more cost effective first turn alpha strike units than Devastators (and still far and away more cost effective and survivable point for point than say, IG Heavy Weapons Squads which are 180pts for 6 BS3 T3 5+sv Ld7 missile launchers that are vulnerable to ID) but they wouldn't be spammable in the same way they are now, especially at lower level points games (1500 and under).

Remove split fire? Well then I'd wonder why? It'd go against the fluff and it'd make them a poor choice over a predator or a vindicator.

Fluff abilities like that change all the time, and it's difficult to believe that losing split fire alone is going to make them a poor choice. 5 BS4 missiles for 140pts is far more firepower than you can get out of any other SW HS choice.

Limit their weapons loadout to 0-2 of each weapon? That'd be a bit ridiculous IMO, it makes tactical sense to have a unit full of the same weapon for range and knowing what to use each squad for.

Or it'd provide and incentive to configure squads specifically to utilize split-fire and cut down on spam.

Most people have problems with the space wolves meta game and the use of transports to pulverise opponents. That isn't the codexes fault. That's the must win at any cost brigades fault.

Lets not lie here, a broken unit is the codex's fault. If it wasn't broken, there wouldn't be anything for the WAAC crowd to use.

I think GK are far more broken. And while I haven't read GK fluff, I have suffered an ignoble defeat (500pt armys, I got one kill. The HQ) at their hands. I HAVE read SW fluff and I have to agree that while I don't care about how the chapter plays per-se, I DO care that there is an incredibly gay army prancing around on doggies and with a mutation to their geneseed so self evident that the Inquisition, Codex Astartes, and a good portion of the Imperium of Man should have wiped them out long ago...

Long live the fighters of Ultramar!!

Grimtuff wrote:One will only be getting the more than 18 ML shots if you add Wolf Guard with Cyclones to the LF... Thus giving up an Elite slot.

Yeah, except that the SW player can take a Wolf Guard unit with the Cyclone terminator AND the melta/fist 'sergeants' in one unit, and then split them among the squads. Thus NOT giving up an Elite slot.

I don't understand how some people just can't see the facts. A grey hunter, over a tactical marine, has the bp/ccw making him better in assault, counter attack making him better in assault, and acute senses which doesn't do much even if it is a night fight. A grey hunter squad, over a tactical squad, can take 1 special at 5 men, and 2 specials at 10, can take a wolf standard greatly increasing their effectiveness for one key phase for only 10 points, and take a wulfen marine to greatly increase the squads effectiveness for 15 points. They also usually add a wolf guard, who has the same benefits as the grey hunters over a regular sergeant, with even more options.

From all of that, it should be obvious to anyone that grey hunters are superior to tactical marines. Don't tell me that they shouldn't be compared, because they are the main troops choice of two marine codices where there is a ton of overlap and most stuff is just the same.

So now, we have the fact that grey hunters are better than tactical marines, and that it is a fair comparison to make. So why in God's name are they one point cheaper? The sergeant equivalent is 15 points cheaper! How can anyone sit here with a straight face and say that's acceptable?

Someone earlier said something about not comparing them to C:SM because it is older, which was then pointed out to be an exaggeration as C:SM isn't even a year older. That person also said, compare them to Blood Angels who get assault marines as troops. So lets do that:

9 Grey Hunters, 1 meltagun, 1 wolf standard, 1 mark of the wulfen, with a wolf guard who has a combi-melta/powerfist, in a rhino. 243 points.

10 BA Assault Marines, 2 meltaguns, sergeant with Infernus pistol and powerfist, no jump packs, in a rhino. 265 points.

First off, the BA have to replace their pistols to get the special weapons, so they lose an attack. EVEN on the charge, the MORE expensive BA squad will LOSE to the Grey Hunters.

It doesn't matter who you compare them to. They can either be powerful but expensive, average both in ability and cost, or weak but cheap. Powerful and cheap should never be an option.

I don't particularly care about the current incarnation of SW's; but how can anyone complain about their fluff in a universe where Orks can exist. It's inconceivable that anything in the SW codex can offend reason more than the slowed concept of Orks in space.

I know this is Dakka, so let the flaming begin.

It just had to be said.

I think that is because certain things have been set in stone in the 40K universe. Orks are ridiculous, yes, but they have always been there, doing the silly things they do. Space Wolves used to be slightly different Space Marines, with a few odd traditions and some special abilities. They were still, however, the noble and proud warriors of the Emperor who went to battle in much the same manner as all of the other marines.

By changing this, and adding ridiculous stuff like a heavily armored super soldier who rides to battle on a giant wolf, they gave people a reason to complain. Marines riding giant wolves is a stupid, silly concept. Orks were always silly, they're supposed to be funny. Space Wolves are not.

Doomsdave wrote:I don't particularly care about the current incarnation of SW's; but how can anyone complain about their fluff in a universe where Orks can exist. It's inconceivable that anything in the SW codex can offend reason more than the slowed concept of Orks in space.

I know this is Dakka, so let the flaming begin.

It just had to be said.

Well, Orks are honestly usually treated like fodder, for one.

Why do you find the idea of Orks in space ridiculous?

I wasn't gonna sift through 6 pages to find if I am original or not, but I hate Space Wolves for their appearance. I don't think power armor and crazy hair belong together. I like the rules, even if a few cry OP, and I love ALL mythology, including Norse (Arjak, Lukas, Fenris, etc), but I don't feel power armor and wild hair mix. I think a lot of the models look goofy and gacky. The trinkets on the armor look overdone and gaudy, and they don't impress me. As said though, I like the book, and I look forward to Phil's writing of the Black Templar codex. Just add to it buddy, leave my weapon costs alone I like 6pt plasma, 2 wound Techmarines with access to bikes, stormshields and servo harnesses, and 20pt TMLs and ACs.

As long as he doesn't put Black Templars on giant, genetically modified barded horses... oh lord.

True, but I am hoping for power lance options for the bikers. It would be fluffy from a knight perspective, and the lances already exist in the Eldar codex. So there is no reason not to. But yeah, genetically modified barded horses...no. However, fantasy DOES have MECHANICAL horses for Empire.... *thoughtful face*

Doomsdave wrote:I don't particularly care about the current incarnation of SW's; but how can anyone complain about their fluff in a universe where Orks can exist. It's inconceivable that anything in the SW codex can offend reason more than the slowed concept of Orks in space.

I know this is Dakka, so let the flaming begin.

It just had to be said.

Because the Orks aren't taking themselves seriously. Everything about the Orks is upfront with its sillyness in a way that fits the setting, it's not trying to portray its sillyness as anything but sillyness. The SW's try to pass off the same sillyness as "Serious GRIMDARK Hero" stuff, so it comes off looking like bad internet fanfic.

Vaktathi wrote:

Doomsdave wrote:I don't particularly care about the current incarnation of SW's; but how can anyone complain about their fluff in a universe where Orks can exist. It's inconceivable that anything in the SW codex can offend reason more than the slowed concept of Orks in space.

I know this is Dakka, so let the flaming begin.

It just had to be said.

Because the Orks aren't taking themselves seriously. Everything about the Orks is upfront with its sillyness in a way that fits the setting, it's not trying to portray its sillyness as anything but sillyness. The SW's try to pass off the same sillyness as "Serious GRIMDARK Hero" stuff, so it comes off looking like bad internet fanfic.

Fair enough. I see the 40K universe as one big saturday morning cartoon (populated by cardboard cut-outs for "characters") designed to sell "action figures" anyway. And that's OK & can be fun. It just seems silly to demand serious and thoughtful fluff from a universe that can contain Orks.

I suspect, often because they get their arse handed to them by a SW player, so they suddenly hate Space Wolves.

Gop wrote:I suspect, often because they get their arse handed to them by a SW player, so they suddenly hate Space Wolves.

So? While that might be true, that doesn't make our complaints any less valid.