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I'm a long time Thousand Sons player, so yeah. Death to the dogs of the False emperor!

Otherwise, as stated, Space Marines who are better for less points.

One thing they are worse at though is their Drop Pods only hold 10 models to SMs 12. It makes sense though since the SWs need the two spaces for the newspapers and dog food.

I blame Administratum propaganda.

From my perspective i think what i dont like about space wolves is the codex. They have one of the most overpowered codex out there. They are cheaper than marines, yet they are better in most every way. They hate psychers but they have some of the best psychers in the imperium. Long fangs being able to split fire is just rediculous. TBH i have no idea how GW allowed such a broken codex to slip through the cracks. That is all.

Void__Dragon wrote:Well, admittedly, it's not "overt" in the fluff, only implied through one part of a story in the Space Wolf codex. Even so, the effect is still present, you don't see the Blood Angels codex talking about how legendary Mephiston was with the ladies before becoming a marine, nor do you see Ultramarines making passes at women.

I guess that's because the authors did not think BA & UM fans would be that fixated on the "manliness" of their Chapter. For the SW, the whole werewolf biker gang theme pretty much calls for a few loose girls to further confirm how oh-so-manly the Wolves are. It's just another aspect that might be deemed "cool" by a lot of people.

But yeah, I kinda expect most of the book's fluff to be written like the Plague of Unbelief blurb; you could say I'm already inoculated. I just have to check the exact wording on if I can somehow still interpret it in a way that would preserve that last bit of "astartesness" about them.
If you remember where approximately that text is to be found, you'd likely save me a couple minutes of reading, though!

Botten3 wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I love their fluff and the idea behind their warrior archetype.

I hate the things the inexplicably get.

5 Heavies in a Fang squad (and splitfire plus a add-on that may have another heavy) for CHEAP!

4 HQs for NO reason whatsoever

Ugh... lots of other things.

Our Plasma Cannons are 5 points more expensive than the norm, and the only break we get in Long Fangs is 5 points less for a heavy bolter

Not sure what codex you're reading but Codex SM Devs stack up like this:

HB are 10 pts more
Missile launchers & Multi-Meltas are 5 pts more
Plasma Cannons are 5 pts more
Lascannons are 10 pts more

Tzeentchling9 wrote:I'm a long time Thousand Sons player, so yeah. Death to the dogs of the False emperor!

Otherwise, as stated, Space Marines who are better for less points.

One thing they are worse at though is their Drop Pods only hold 10 models to SMs 12. It makes sense though since the SWs need the two spaces for the newspapers and dog food.

:: facepaw :: I hope I'm not the only one who caught the pun in the first line.

AchillesFTW wrote:

Imperial Fists have technically have the best/most fluff considering they 'consist' of the Black Templars and Crimson Fists chapters as well.

And the Soul Drinkers! So they actually have traitor fluff as well.

OT, I don't hate the Space Wolves but from a background / fluff perspective their codex makes them look rather ridiculous. Personally I like to pretend the codex fluff doesn't exist, and concentrate instead on their portrayal in A Thousand Sons / Prospero Burns / Battle of the Fang. That trilogy portrays them in a much more (internally) consistent and cooler light imho.

Lynata wrote:I guess that's because the authors did not think BA & UM fans would be that fixated on the "manliness" of their Chapter. For the SW, the whole werewolf biker gang theme pretty much calls for a few loose girls to further confirm how oh-so-manly the Wolves are. It's just another aspect that might be deemed "cool" by a lot of people.

But yeah, I kinda expect most of the book's fluff to be written like the Plague of Unbelief blurb; you could say I'm already inoculated. I just have to check the exact wording on if I can somehow still interpret it in a way that would preserve that last bit of "astartesness" about them.
If you remember where approximately that text is to be found, you'd likely save me a couple minutes of reading, though!

Well, that's exactly what it is. It tries too hard, IMO.

Well, not all of it is insulting in such a way that I can recall, but what's not bad is so boring I almost wished for badness so that it could at least incite some reaction from me.

Is on page 20, at the top. Too lazy to type up exactly what it says.

Oh, but read about on the previous page of the time a company of Wolves travels through the circulatory system of a Chaos-corrupted void whale and blow it up.

I think the fluff is stupid and I think (most of) the models look stupid.
I don't really have any complaints about the codex, honestly; people are always going to whine about something.
But the biggest reason I hate them is simply:
Space marines riding wolves.
And it's not chaos, so they don't even have the excuse of, "but, it's the warp!"

Void__Dragon wrote:Is on page 20, at the top. Too lazy to type up exactly what it says.

Thankyou, that should suffice. Appreciated!

Void__Dragon wrote:Oh, but read about on the previous page of the time a company of Wolves travels through the circulatory system of a Chaos-corrupted void whale and blow it up.

XD Will do!

@Vaktathi

cheap terminators

They have the *cheapest* loyalist terminators in the game, second only to CSM termi's, with more options and Counterattack+ATSKNF. The only thing they can't do is spam TH/SS termi's effectively.

Sorry I forgot to specify assault terminators. The only kind of good (i use this term loosely) terminators in the game! A twin wolf claw terminator cost 63 pts! 23 pts over a normal assault terminator. Plus, they may be cheaper base, but they cannot deepstrike like every other terminator.

oh and not having attack bike squadrons in any marine army, is very disadvantageous. they are practically the only two wound/model unit in the codex, not to mention at T5 packing some serious firepower.

Space wolves also have no way of getting in your face as quick as possible other than drop pods.

J Mac wrote:
Sorry I forgot to specify assault terminators. The only kind of good (i use this term loosely) terminators in the game!

Eh, they can be used to good effect. Load them with combi-weapons and mix of CC upgrades and they're solid, just like CSM termis. Also, the big thing with TH/SS termi's is the SS more than anything, if you've got just a couple guys in the squad with those to absorb AP2 shots you still get much the same effect thanks to wound allocation.

A twin wolf claw terminator cost 63 pts!

are they? I don't have the book in front of me, I thought a pair was cheaper.

Plus, they may be cheaper base, but they cannot deepstrike like every other terminator.

Unless they're intending to shoot stuff, that's not a huge loss (since you'd never DS a pure CC unit anyway), and they can still take drop pods so unless you're trying to take more than 5 it shouldn't be an issue.

oh and not having attack bike squadrons in any marine army, is very disadvantageous. they are practically the only two wound/model unit in the codex, not to mention at T5 packing some serious firepower.

Given how rarely I see attack bikes these days (I don't think I've faced one this year actually) in any book, and I can't recall the last time I faced an entire squad of them (e.g. more than one in a unit), it's hard to see it as a huge loss.

Space wolves also have no way of getting in your face as quick as possible other than drop pods.

They have the same methods that every other marine army has except for stormravens that most SM armies don't have either. They've got Rhino's, Razorbacks, three Land Raider variants, and Drop Pods just like every other Marine army.

Because they are marines, but with hygiene issuses.

As Cartman says,

"Mm, your tears are so yummy and sweet! Oh, the tears of unfathomable sadness! My-yummy!"

Seriously, the only valid complaint I see out of anything is the amount of wolf related crap in the codex. That could have been toned down. However, the rest of what I have seen in the last four pages has just been whining from haters wanting to hate.

That's funny. You're either insufferably arrogant or you just didn't bother to read anything at all and relied on fanboy loyalty to make a comment. Seriously, accept that your special snowflake twilight wish fulfillment army part 2 isn't to everyone's tastes or move along and stop bothering everyone with pretentious bollocks.

iproxtaco wrote:That's funny. You're either insufferably arrogant or you just didn't bother to read anything at all and relied on fanboy loyalty to make a comment. Seriously, accept that your special snowflake twilight wish fulfillment army part 2 isn't to everyone's tastes or move along and stop bothering everyone with pretentious bollocks.

That is funny since practically every post in this is about fanboisim for their own army not being special snowflakes per the canon while the canon is more and more pointing that the Wolves were indeed special snowflakes.

And really, yet another Twilight reference? Considering that there were a vast amount of Space Wolves players before the new codex came out, second highest winning percentage behind Blood Angels in 3rd edtion, the Wolves are hardly a Twilight wish fulfillment. From their popularity on other forums such as the Bolter & Chainsword (highest forum count) long before that movie series ever came out, the Wolves are hardly a Twilight wish fulfillment.

What the Wolves have become is a wish fulfillment for min/max players, counts-as, and army hoppers such as yourself, if you are as your avatar indicates, "Goatboy". However even that has diminished as more and more players leave the Wolves codex behind to hop on the next FOTM codex or find out that copying Wolves netlists is not a guaranteed win.

But hey, who am I to stop the whining of players too caught up in their own chapters lacking of personality or "specialness"? That is the basis of what all the complaints arise from.

Did I strike a nerve? Might want to get some cream for that sore butt.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:But hey, who am I to stop the whining of players too caught up in their own chapters lacking of personality or "specialness"? That is the basis of what all the complaints arise from.

Do you really think that none of the complaints about imbalance of the codex (which is what a number of posters in this thread argue) have no merit?

Space Wolf Spwolf Marwoles of the Adwolf Astarwolf wielding a boltwolf, chainwolf, and boltwolf pistwolf get counterwolf and are simply better than codex Space Marines for a lower price. Longwolf Fangwolf Devawolves get Misswolf Launchwolves for fewer points than SM, and can split their fire, due apparently to their Enhwolf Senswolves.

They get four Headquarwolf choices, can spam Razorwolves with Lascawolves and Plaswolves on the cheap, and have some of the best Psywolves (sorry, Ruwolf Priewolves) in the game, able to cast Psywolf Powolves that are incredibly unbalanced (JOTWW?).

When one army has the some of the best armor, best anti-tank, best assault, and best shooting units, all for the lowest price, is it any surprise that people switch to them?

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
However, the rest of what I have seen in the last four pages has just been whining from haters wanting to hate.

Then you obviously didn't do much reading of said pages

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
That is funny since practically every post in this is about fanboisim for their own army not being special snowflakes per the canon

Really? It reads to me more like it's more like they're just complaining about special snowflake sillyness in general.

while the canon is more and more pointing that the Wolves were indeed special snowflakes.

Which makes for stupid fluff that turns people off.

Considering that there were a vast amount of Space Wolves players before the new codex came out

Yeah, they all mysteriously started playing again in October 2009. Before that, I played against a grand total of perhaps 2 SW players in 3 total games in the preceding 3 or 4 years of consistent weekly play (2-5 games a week) and tournaments/events every month or two, in multiple different metro areas and states.

second highest winning percentage behind Blood Angels in 3rd edtion,

And you'll notice they changed several core rules as a result of these armies And that power level probably had something to do with that popularity.

From their popularity on other forums such as the Bolter & Chainsword (highest forum count) long before that movie series ever came out, the Wolves are hardly a Twilight wish fulfillment.

Most would agree, but with the quality of the SW fluff as it is, it doesn't read too far off, which is why the comparison is often made, though it isn't unique to SW's either.

What the Wolves have become is a wish fulfillment for min/max players, counts-as, and army hoppers

And you wonder why people dislike an army that caters to min/max powergames, counts-as and army hoppers...? Why is that a mystery? It also doesn't help that the codex greatly incetivizes army builds that play about as far from what most would imagine as SW armies as one can get, more appropriate to Imperial Fists or the Imperial guard than an army of supposed Space Vikings.

However even that has diminished as more and more players leave the Wolves codex behind to hop on the next FOTM codex or find out that copying Wolves netlists is not a guaranteed win.

Only in the last couple of months since GK's, and even then, the SW's still probably only went down 1 spot in tournament attendance to 2nd. At Adepticon earlier this year, SW's were by far the most popular single faction. Yes, 90% (38 of 43 were counts as), but that also explains a lot about why people dislike the army.

But hey, who am I to stop the whining of players too caught up in their own chapters lacking of personality or "specialness"? That is the basis of what all the complaints arise from.

Probably because you're super butthurt and didn't bother to actually read the complaints before hitting "post"?

better than regular marines... cost less, counterattack is lame LAME so they are better at shooting than most marines , somehow cost less... oh and JotWW is broken... oh targeting my nob in a squad of boys... might as well just take the whoe squad with it.

Fluff: I personally like the Space Vikings idea, and don't mind minor dark/pranking/partying/traitor or whatever fluff aspects, as long as they pick one or two and heavily focus on them (Otherwise, SW will become more "dark" than DA...).

Also, kill the Wolf^n spam throughout the codex! Kill it with fire! I think they could probably remove 4 our of every 5 references to Wolf, and still get the Wolf-tie-in message across to Hellen Keller.

Crunch: As per everybody above. They are overcosted for what they do, and several significant parts of their army defies their fluff.
Long fangs and their snowflake rules? Fine. Cheap Long Fangs that allow you to pump out more firepower than any other SM codex on a per-point basis, and bringing firepower on an IG level to the table (Seriously?...)? Not fine.
Having a limited number of psykers with a good power or two? Fine. Having a cheap psyker you can take four of in a single list with (arguably) the best set of psychic powers in the game atm? Not fine.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
That is funny since practically every post in this is about fanboisim for their own army not being special snowflakes per the canon while the canon is more and more pointing that the Wolves were indeed special snowflakes.

Yes, none of the posts mentioned how Space Wolves are better than regular Space Marines while also being cheaper...

Has anyone mentioned how spacey and wolfy they are?? Man I just can't stand it!!

Skriker

DarknessEternal wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
That is funny since practically every post in this is about fanboisim for their own army not being special snowflakes per the canon while the canon is more and more pointing that the Wolves were indeed special snowflakes.

Yes, none of the posts mentioned how Space Wolves are better than regular Space Marines while also being cheaper...

THANK YOU! Every one is saying it but no one is explaining how!!! Our devastators have no advantages except for cheaper heavy bolters

Having another heavy weapons guy allowing you to pump out more FP for lesser prices. Having arguable the best psycher in the game. Having cheaper vehicles and transports. That's something right there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Having another heavy weapons guy allowing you to pump out more damage for lesser prices. Having arguable the best psycher in the game for a more or less cheap for his abilities price. Having cheaper vehicles and transports. That's something right there.

Botten3 wrote:
THANK YOU! Every one is saying it but no one is explaining how!!! Our devastators have no advantages except for cheaper heavy bolters

You missed the sarcasm, because many people pointed out how Space Wolves are better and and cheaper than vanilla Marines.

Every Long Fang option is cheaper than the Space Marine option.

Grey Hunters are cheaper than Space Marines, but they have an additional close combat weapon, Counter-Attack, and Acute Senses.

Where they aren't explicitly cheaper, they are better.

Wolf Guard are 7 points cheaper than veteran Space Marines and many of their options are cheaper as well (power weapons, etc).

Characters can buy Eternal Warrior and Toughness 5 (which is one of the only cases in 40k where bonus Toughness counts for instant death). Rune Priest powers make Space Marine powers look like puke. Long Fangs are the only unit in the game that can split their fire, this coming from their sergeant who is 10 points cheaper than a Space Marine sergeant.

SW counterattack is one of the most OP traits in the game. Admittedly it is not automatic but unlike other marines, SW want to get within 12". Unloading a rhino is no big deal for them. They can disembark, plant two bolter shots into you and still get two attacks in HTH.

Add to that the overly cheap long fangs and the powerful rune priests and I understand why the dislike.

Botten3 wrote:
THANK YOU! Every one is saying it but no one is explaining how!!! Our devastators have no advantages except for cheaper heavy bolters

Read back over the thread, it's been covered, but just in case:

Long Fangs:
5 instead of 4 heavy weapons with split fire ability and a dirt cheap cost? 5 C:SM Devastators with 4 ML's is 150pts, 6 Long Fangs with Counterattack and a Split Fire ability and 5 ML's are 140pts (so 10pts cheaper with more guns that can engage more targets) and the sergeant equivalent can take a plasma/melta/flamer as well and not just a combi.

More guns, fewer points, and they're better able to put that firepower where it's needed.

Lets look at Grey Hunters. They have a CCW to go with the rest of their wargear, plus Counterattack, making them significantly better in CC than a Tac Marine. A squad of GH's with 9 dudes with a meltagun plus a 10th Wolf Guard sporting a powerfist and a combi-melta is 183pts with 2 attacks each, 3 on the charge or when charged. An SM tac squad is 210 with a multi-melta, a meltagun, and a combi-melta/powerfist sergeant. So the GH's don't get the heavy weapon (not that anyone would take them on the assualt oriented GH's anyway, not much of aloss), but are 15% cheaper with significantly more close combat capability, not to mention have access to more powerweapons/upgrades than the Tac squad does.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:As Cartman says,

"Mm, your tears are so yummy and sweet! Oh, the tears of unfathomable sadness! My-yummy!"

Seriously, the only valid complaint I see out of anything is the amount of wolf related crap in the codex. That could have been toned down. However, the rest of what I have seen in the last four pages has just been whining from haters wanting to hate.

Hey man, you need a hug or something? Because if it'll make you feel better about that butthurt, Kaelis Ra knows I will take one for the team and give you a hug.

You seem to think that Space Wolves being special snowflake Mary Sues is just peachy because... The canon points to them being so? Well, yeah, hence why people dislike their fluff.

They can disembark, plant two bolter shots into you and still get two attacks in HTH.

3. 1+BP/CCW+Counter-attack. This is before popping the wolf standard to make a bit more certain that they hit, and wound. Oh, and reroll around half of the failed armor saves they make.

My gripes with the SW, in order from least annoying to most annoying:

Canis Wolf McLupinebane of the 2142352th Wolf company, Master of Wolves, Wolfer of the wolf wolf, rider of thunderwolves, one who carries the mark of the wulfen, and wolfs the wolf wolf at any further opportunity in service of the great wolf. <CENSORED> people, even the maligned "boring" vanilla codex wasn't this samey.

Longfangs, Grey hunters, Rune priests, Wolf guard everywhere, for reasons already stated repeatedly by this thread. What in the name of the Emperor were they thinking? Oh, wait, it was "Sell all those wolf models! NOW!" ...the same reason my Carnifex now sucks and I own 3 trygon.