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Please explain your reasoning clearly, I would like to hear your reasoning.

They are?
THe only reason i could think of would be because theyre marines. Thats about it.

Because different people have different opinions and thus don't always like the same things?

Generally it seems to be their background mostly, they seem all over the place. I'd go in more detail, but this thread will likely show up again next week.

People also seem to hate how rules-wise they're normal marines with a bit of a boost in power at a slightly cheaper price tag. Lots of reasons I guess, but it applies to anything really.

Yet another "Why the Hate" thread.
I agree with Wot Not_U said.
If people must slate
If they really do hate
They are not quite right in the head

I think it's more the current Long Fang/Razorspam/Thunderwolf Calvary netlist business that gets people's blood up. It'll be popular until something else comes along.

Myself, I like Spacewolves, I'm just not a fan of Thunderwolf Cavlary. I just happen to think that the genetically engineered super-human giant with the mechanically augmented tank armour, automatic rifle that shoots guided missiles and the giant sledge hammer that has built in lightning is sufficiently cool without having to ride on a giant wolf. That's just my opinion though, I could be wrong.

Its simple math, space wolves can do anything that any other marine(or otherwise) army can do, but better, for less.

Their points costs, the current meta, also space vikings.

Their recent fluff goes against what I liked about them. They come of as hypocritical wolf viking wolves who firing heavy weapons by smell, instead of just space vikings.

Yeah, its a twofold issue. One is gameplay wise, Space Wolves are arguably the most powerful army, because of their cheap costs and spammy net lists that everyone uses, making it less fun to play against them.

Fluffwise, well, most people think Space Marines riding giant wolves is just a tad too ridiculous, and makes them seem silly.

Edit: I personally don't hate them, and agree with the above posters that most of the people who foam at the mouth at mention of their name are just overreacting.

Botten3 wrote:Please explain your reasoning clearly, I would like to hear your reasoning.

I like them?

But I think it is generally because they have the most marines ( around 12.000 ), bigger fleet ( even from the Segmentum fleet ), some kind of weird faith ( they even battle SoB because of it ) and because they are sometimes dickheads... ( they are compared to furies to )

But come on guys...how can someone hate, crazy, drunk space vikings? They are pure awesome...

every one plays them, their spammy and have stupid fluff :/

And their furies....

@lledway what do you mean spammy net lists? what's that?

I would assume a list found on the net that spams something - in the case of Space Wolves, Long Fangs and Razorbacks.

I like Space Wolves, but that doesn't say much because I actually play them. The main reason that people at my FLGS hate them is because, to quote a friend of mine, "Space Wolves are so powerful and so much better than Marines that they had to be cheaper." A couple of their units are cheaper than their Marine equivalent, and stronger than them. A big source of rage at my store is the fact that Long Fangs can take 5 heavy weapons, and at a far cheaper price than the C:SM Devastator squads.

Botten3 wrote:Please explain your reasoning clearly, I would like to hear your reasoning.

A few reasons

In terms of gameplay? Woefully undercosted units that are inexplicably better than just about everyone else's equivalents and typically cheaper to boot. Rune Priests, Long Fangs, and Grey Hunters primarily. A 10 strong CSM squad with 2 meltas and a Powerfist champ along with an Icon of Chaos Glory (to approximate ATSKNF) is 220pts. A 9 strong GH squad with a meltagun plus a WG sergeant sporting a Combi Melta and a Powerfist is 183pts but also has the incredibly powerful Counterattack USR, all for 37pts less. The CSM squad is similarly equipped with roughly similar Morale status, but lacks the very powerful Counterattack USR and costs ~20% more.

The army list also really incentivizes armies that play more like Iron Warriors or Imperial Guard than what most would normally think of when they think Space Wolves. Most people think bloody combats and mighty heroes when they think of Space Wolves, not armies sporting half a dozen or more tanks, sometimes double digits of tanks, with more long range anti-tank guns than most IG armies that sit there and blast away their opponents with heavy weapons and psychic powers (hooray 15 split fire BS4 krak missiles in just over 400pts!)

It doesn't help that this has made them a massive bandwagon army. At the last Adepticon, the most popular codex in use was Space Wolves, but literally 90% of the "SW" armies present were "counts-as" armies, meaning people using other SM armies with SW rules.

In terms of fluff? Much of it is so silly/ridiculous it borders on bad Twilight internet fanfic status (firing artillery by smell...then rushing forward with said artillery to watch the explosions), then there's the naming conventions (the Wolf King Canis Wolfborne, Lord of the Wolfkin of the Wolf Guard of the Space Wolves, wielding his Wolfclaws while mounted upon his mighty Wolf, bearing the Wolf Tail Talisman and Wolf Tooth Necklace and hero of the saga of the Wolfkin etc ad nauseum). Additionally, their fluff is all over the place in multiple contradictory ways, and it just doesn't mesh well. They want them to be everything. They try to be the Rough Guys with a Heart of Gold, the Emperor's Executioners, Space Vikings, Werewolves, Drunken Rascals, Merciless Space Berzerker Butchers, Space Pranksters and Wise Star Men all at the same time and it just comes together in the absolute worst way.

Not to mention that the rampant hypocrisy in some of their fluff regarding Psykers, which as another poster put in it another thread, basically made them Space Hipsters (Psykers are bad, we don't use them and neither should you, we have Rune Priests that are *nothing* like Psykers, they harness the native power of Fenris, you've probably never heard of it...)

The SW's of course *have* to be better than other marines to differentiate themselves. They of course don't have devastators, they have Long Fangs which are *so* much more wise and experienced (and have more guns, cost fewer points, and can split fire). They don't have Tac Marines, they have Grey Hunters (which are cheaper than normal marines but have more options/flexibility and have much cheaper upgrade options in addition to more standard wargear and Counterattack and are much more min/maxable). There's really nothing the SW's lack, and much of the stuff they share with other SM's is simply better just for the sake of being different, in a gigantically hipster way.

If GW would fix the costs/abilities, stop equating *different* with needing to be *better*, design the army so that it incentivizes armies that don't look like IW gunlines, and decide *what* they want the SW's to actually be, they might not be so bad. As is, they come off as gigantically hypocritical, contradictory, confused, inconsistent and grossly exaggerate in terms of fluff, and on the table are simply "Marines...but BETTER!"

Brother Coa wrote:
I like them?

But I think it is generally because they have the most marines ( around 12.000 ), bigger fleet ( even from the Segmentum fleet ), some kind of weird faith ( they even battle SoB because of it ) and because they are sometimes dickheads... ( they are compared to furies to )

Where on earth are you pulling those insane numbers and fleet sizes from? Certainly not any SW codex or BL book I've read. They're nowhere near that size.

But come on guys...how can someone hate, crazy, drunk space vikings? They are pure awesome...

Because they aren't really Space Vikings, and the crazy drunk part is there pretty much just there peripherally for comedic relief and makes them look silly instead of badass?

Brother Coa wrote:

Botten3 wrote:Please explain your reasoning clearly, I would like to hear your reasoning.

I like them?

But I think it is generally because they have the most marines ( around 12.000 ), bigger fleet ( even from the Segmentum fleet ), some kind of weird faith ( they even battle SoB because of it ) and because they are sometimes dickheads... ( they are compared to furies to )

But come on guys...how can someone hate, crazy, drunk space vikings? They are pure awesome...

They don't number around 12,000 and their fleet is not bigger than the Segmentum Fleet.

juraigamer wrote:Their points costs, the current meta, also space vikings.

I wouldn't mind if they were actually space vikings. Now they're just space pups with a dash of viking. Everything is wolf this, wolf that, yiff yiff yiff. For a second there, I almost thought Mat Ward named the wargear.

NB: Furies = Erinyes the "Kindly Ones" who have snakes for hair, leathery wings and chase after chaps like Orestes seeking vengeance.

Furries = Dressing up as an animal.

Space Wolves don't dress up in cossies afaik so maybe they are closer to furies that furries after all.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:NB: Furies = Erinyes the "Kindly Ones" who have snakes for hair, leathery wings and chase after chaps like Orestes seeking vengeance.
Furries = Dressing up as an animal.
Space Wolves don't dress up in cossies afaik so maybe they are closer to furies that furries after all.

I was not aware that there was a difference. And how do you know space wolves don't cosplay the skin of their dead dogs while doing naughty things in their dorms of the battle fortresses?

I don't think that they're overpowered...some units are grossly undercosted but they use up slots for which there is little competition (Heavy Support). Long Fangs are really no different than Vendettas in that you're well served to max out your FOC slots on one undercosted unit. The rest of their units, the upgrades add up VERY quickly.

It's not hate for me at all, I just think that the Wolfen Wolf of the Wolfy Wolf nomenclature is a bit Herpen Derp of the Herpity Derp.

iproxtaco wrote:and their fleet is not bigger than the Segmentum Fleet.

They can beat it, though. Segmentum Pacificus Navy got nothing on the Wolves and their fleet of Battle Barges.

As far as the naming convention is concerned, though, one must cut them some slack - at least as far as wargear is concerned. This just seems to be a general trend amongst GW to make it easier to identify Chapter-specific weaponry and equipment and is not limited to the SW.
Of course that doesn't make some of those titles sound any better.

Lynata wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:and their fleet is not bigger than the Segmentum Fleet.

They can beat it, though. Segmentum Pacificus Navy got nothing on the Wolves and their fleet of Battle Barges.

Battle Barges aren't designed for ship to ship warfare, they are planetary assault ships. When facing an Imperial Navy Battleship which designed for ship to ship warfare, they are at a distinct disadvantage and must rely on attempting to board their opponents, and at best, they've got half a dozen battlebarges and maybe a dozen strike cruisers and perhaps as many escorts. A Segmentum fleet consists of thousands of Cruisers, Battlecruisers, Battleships and many more escorts.

They have 15 IIRC, most are not Battle Barges.

Potentially awesome fluff fluffed out to atmosphere choking levels.

No more Lupus Wolfsteethfangfurson, please.

Vaktathi wrote:Battle Barges aren't designed for ship to ship warfare, they are planetary assault ships. When facing an Imperial Navy Battleship which designed for ship to ship warfare, they are at a distinct disadvantage and must rely on attempting to board their opponents, and at best, they've got half a dozen battlebarges and maybe a dozen strike cruisers and perhaps as many escorts. A Segmentum fleet consists of thousands of Cruisers, Battlecruisers, Battleships and many more escorts.

Yes, well, tell that to whoever wrote the Plague of Unbelief background. :(

I very much agree with your assessment, as I too believe these are the rules of the setting, but as usual the SW seem to be an exception from these rules.

Hrm, is that a book or a Chapter Approved story? I don't recall too much on the plague of unbelief aside from the mention in the Eye of Terror codex, though that could be a deficiency on my part. That said, yeah, a lot of GW authors don't exactly make much attempt at consistency

Vaktathi wrote:Hrm, is that a book or a Chapter Approved story? I don't recall too much on the plague of unbelief aside from the mention in the Eye of Terror codex, though that could be a deficiency on my part. That said, yeah, a lot of GW authors don't exactly make much attempt at consistency

4 wasted pages in the 2E SoB Codex, of all things. Lexicanum actually has a copy of that story here, if you want to give it a read. Goes to show that it's not always just BL that is exaggerating things - I guess I'll just chalk it up to a very thick plot armour. :S

And how do you know space wolves don't cosplay the skin of their dead dogs while doing naughty things in their dorms of the battle fortresses?

It isn't written in the fluff afaik. Though it is possible in the dark grim world of 40K
But I am as pure as the driven snow of Fenris so my mind is incapable of such lewd thoughts.
*butter not melting in gob*

iproxtaco wrote:
They don't number around 12,000 and their fleet is not bigger than the Segmentum Fleet.

They have 12 great companies, each one is roughly the size of Space Marine Chapter ( around 12.000 ).

Maybe not bigger but they can definitively beat it with their fleet.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
They don't number around 12,000 and their fleet is not bigger than the Segmentum Fleet.

They have 12 great companies, each one is roughly the size of Space Marine Chapter ( around 12.000 ).

Maybe not bigger but they can definitively beat it with their fleet.

Wrong. Each Great Company does not number around the the size of an entire Chapter. They have more in total, not that much.

Brother Coa wrote:
They have 12 great companies, each one is roughly the size of Space Marine Chapter ( around 12.000 ).

Where on earth are you getting that? The SW codex says that Ragnar's Great Company, as the second mightiest behind Grimnar's, numbers merely 200. So if the mightiest are roughly 200 strong and the others are smaller, perhaps 100-150, then roughly 2,000 Marines sounds appropriate.

Maybe not bigger but they can definitively beat it with their fleet.

No, they can't. They have at tops twenty vessels designed for planetary assault and escort (likely fewer), a fraction of which are Battle Barges and perhaps half are Strike Cruisers (which are lighter/smaller/less heavily armed than IN Cruisers), they aren't going to take on even a sector battlegroup with that (which usually numbers 75 or so vessels designed for fighting other starships)