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Most because of the Wolfisms.
Wolf Squad, Wolf marines, Wolf Gaks, Wolf Gits, This wolf, I am a wolf, Twilight Wolfs, and Wolf yadayada

Its kinda annoying I liked them as vikings.

Why is it good to be special snowflakes who are oh so special they can get away with blatant heresy and insubordination?

They are not Space Vikings. Drinking ale and slapping Nordic names on everything does not a Viking make.

I don't mind them trying to follow a Nordic theme. That's not really the complaint anyone has made, that I can recall.

Erm...you are confusing me.
They are not Vikings, okay fine.

But it is not the supporters that use this term. There have been several "I hates em coz dey is Space Vikings"?
The term Space Viking in itself is being used pejoratively from what I can see.

As to the first objection, not all of us give a monkeys about a (fictional) bunch of oppressive idiots that the Imperium is.
Personally I also didn't want Chaos either. A faction that is able to stick its fingers up to the Inquisition sounds good to me.
Your light years may vary
Also I like Nordic myth, so why would Space Wolves (who by your own admission have a nordic theme which is okay) be seen as a bad thing?

Edit:Then I see Ash's post above who likes them as Vikings!

Ash
Honestly don't know but there may have been a conscious borrowing from Nordic myth of the berserker tradition. There are stories of a similar kind, except that the wolf replaces the bear in the battle frenzy.

They do a poor job of being Vikings, they are Cartoony vikings at best. They are to Vikings as Meet the Spartans was to 300.

They don't know if they want to be the good guys, the bad guys, the party guys, the prankster guys, or the dark and mysterious guys, but they want to try to be all of them at the same time, and it ends up looking awful.

Which is, basically, exactly what the Vikings were IRL. They were more than just raiders (since they were making retributive raids against Christian colonies for the sack of their own pagan religious sites... rather than just raping and looting for the hell of it), they were also mercenaries, settlers, colonists, explorers, farmers, fighters, and heavy drinkers/party-goers.

RL Vikings were complex, yo.

At least they have more personality then Ultramarines.

Psienesis wrote:Which is, basically, exactly what the Vikings were IRL. They were more than just raiders (since they were making retributive raids against Christian colonies for the sack of their own pagan religious sites... rather than just raping and looting for the hell of it), they were also mercenaries, settlers, colonists, explorers, farmers, fighters, and heavy drinkers/party-goers.

RL Vikings were complex, yo.

Yes, they were complex and many things, but not in such a contradictory and ridiculous way. Vikings would not have rushed after arrows just to see what happened for the lulz in the heat of battle for instance.

Commisar Wolfie wrote:At least they have more personality then Ultramarines.

Which really isn't saying much

Commisar Wolfie wrote:At least they have more personality then Ultramarines.

As much as this pains me, ya, I'll let space wolves live with that much

Ineed2bucks wrote:

Commisar Wolfie wrote:At least they have more personality then Ultramarines.

As much as this pains me, ya, I'll let space wolves live with that much

I think that is where a lot of hate for SW come from. There just isn't much personality in many of the other marine armies. With the exception of color scheme the only difference between marine armies is a blurb or two that say... so and so is good at lightning raids. So and so are masters of fortifications and prolonged sieges, etc. And thats all the attention that they get to help define their chapters. Also IMO, space marine fluff is boring as hell. They suffer from Superman syndrome. They are popular because they are iconic, not because they are actually interesting. They have too much going for them. They are too invincible, too unstoppable, and truth be told way too one dimensional. Its what happens when you are the poster children.

So, some chapters got named. They were given flaws, they were given something to help make them step forward from the other drones. SW just happened to be one and have been blessed with their own codex, as such 20 or so pages has to be filled with something, so they get little stories and a time line. Yeah BA, DA, BT, and GK get it too. But that doesn't help the Crimson Fist player any. And right now, no matter how you look at it, SW are popular. Thank the HH novels and several other time line publications that seem to be somewhat focusing on the Space Wolves at the moment. If DA, Iron Hands, or Salamanders had such current publications I'm sure people would be looking at them with different eyes.

But at the moment, SW are the going flavor and have just had a lot of attention paid to them weather they deserve it or not.

Well I think SM are colorful enough, ultramarines though are stale, and I like the flaw for BA, it makes them more unique and more human, not being perfect and all.

I love their fluff and the idea behind their warrior archetype.

I hate the things the inexplicably get.

5 Heavies in a Fang squad (and splitfire plus a add-on that may have another heavy) for CHEAP!

4 HQs for NO reason whatsoever

Ugh... lots of other things.

I think the self-crippling adherence to established doctrines and standards gives the Ultramarines way more personality than the Space Wolves and their supposed drawbacks could ever have.

Their geneseed defect works pretty much like vampirism in Twilight in that it just makes their fans like them even more, and of course gives them supercool abilities making them even more "cool" in battle, because being a Space Marine isn't cool enough these days.

I think the true philosophical tragedy lies in what the Ultramarines are often accused of - sacrificing their humanity in order to serve mankind. Being a Space Marine isn't a part-time job. At least it shouldn't be.

Just my two bolt shells, of course.

And for the records, I also liked them as Vikings, once.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I love their fluff and the idea behind their warrior archetype.

I hate the things the inexplicably get.

5 Heavies in a Fang squad (and splitfire plus a add-on that may have another heavy) for CHEAP!

4 HQs for NO reason whatsoever

Ugh... lots of other things.

The five heavies wouldn't be an issue if the guns were a tad more expensive. The unit concept itself gets a pass because for every guy you kill your loosing your chance for split fire or a heavy weapon. Also all codex marine lists can split fire their devistators as long as they combat squad them. Yeah yeah its more points... about 64 or so but you also get a BS5 shot out of it and 6 ablative wounds.

The 4 HQs is not surprising at all. The old 3rd ed codex required one HQ for every 750 points. So you needed 3 to field 1501 or greater points. Also in the codex itself it says flat out that SW army is fluffy designed to be lead by several heros. Kinda hard to do with only 2 HQ options. Maybe what they should have done was stick with two HQ options but make the Wolf Lord and Iron Priest not count as one of the two HQ choices. I'd love it if we had a way to still take a Ven dread as an HQ without being forced to take Bjorn.

The main hate for the four HQs is that you can take 4 Rune Priests. Maybe they should have had the 0-1 tag attached. But SW was put out in a time where the design philosophy was to not restrict army composition options.

All I have to say to those who call them "spammy" is that most (if not all) competitive lists out there today spam some sort of unit.

Most people hate them because they are cheap efficient marines. However, they lack some things that most marines have. Combat squads, combat tactics, attack bike units, cheap terminators, and drop pods cannot carry dreads. Sure minor things in some peoples eyes but they die just like any other marines.

They're not hated, not by me anyways.

I didn't know they told the Inquisition off, but if they really did, then that's super awesome. The Inquisition is a bunch of gits with their murder of millions to punish a few amongst the many many innocent. I know the Sisters of Battle aren't any better, but that's what custom fluff is for. ^_^

My friend was once interested in them. He's a newb to 40k, and still has yet to put together all of his AoBR stuff he got in January or February of this year, much less play his first game. But he loves the background, and he loves the Space Wolves for how laid back and independent they are.

Myself, I haven't really been interested in their background yet. I remember making my first 10-man Assault Squad from an older Space Wolves kit and a bag of 10 jump packs, waaaay back in 3rd edition. Just because it was cheaper than buying a pair of 5-man Assault Squad kits. More recently, I've used a wolf head from the Space Wolves Pack kit to customize a Chapter Master I built for that friend I mentioned earlier, as a birthday present, though he will never have it in his possession. I used the rest of the kit to make some Honor Guard which might also double as Vanguard Veterans in a pinch. So yeah, I like a lot of their minis. ^_^

Jayden63 wrote:

The five heavies wouldn't be an issue if the guns were a tad more expensive. The unit concept itself gets a pass because for every guy you kill your loosing your chance for split fire or a heavy weapon.

It's odd that an army of viking space berzerkers however has the most heavily armed, most flexible and most adaptive heavy weapons squad in the game in a configuration that couldn't be better for min/max armies.

Also all codex marine lists can split fire their devistators as long as they combat squad them. Yeah yeah its more points... about 64 or so but you also get a BS5 shot out of it and 6 ablative wounds.

70pts more for BA's, 90pts more for C:SM, and they have 1 less Heavy Weapon. When you're talking about fire support units, the ablative wounds don't matter quite as much, and the cost increase is huge. 2 full BA dev squads with missile launchers is 420pts for 8 heavy weapons. 3 full LF squads with missile launchers is 420pts for 15 heavy weapons, double the firepower for the same number of points and able to engage 150-300% more targets.

The main hate for the four HQs is that you can take 4 Rune Priests. Maybe they should have had the 0-1 tag attached.

Or rather just not made them the best psyker HQ's in the game

J Mac wrote:

Most people hate them because they are cheap efficient marines. However, they lack some things that most marines have. Combat squads

not as advantageous given the nature of SW units and Long Fangs still get the primary benefit of that.

combat tactics

Much less useful on troops that have twice as many attacks plus Counterattack

attack bike units

Not a huge loss. Something sure, but not really a "space wolf"-y thing in the first place.

cheap terminators

They have the *cheapest* loyalist terminators in the game, second only to CSM termi's, with more options and Counterattack+ATSKNF. The only thing they can't do is spam TH/SS termi's effectively.

and drop pods cannot carry dreads.

Methinks you need to re-read the SW codex, because reading it in front of me it sure looks like they can put dreads in drop pods.

Sure minor things in some peoples eyes but they die just like any other marines.

while being cheaper, fightier, and generally more capable for fewer points with more (and usually cheaper) options.

Vaktathi wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

The five heavies wouldn't be an issue if the guns were a tad more expensive. The unit concept itself gets a pass because for every guy you kill your loosing your chance for split fire or a heavy weapon.

It's odd that an army of viking space berzerkers however has the most heavily armed, most flexible and most adaptive heavy weapons squad in the game in a configuration that couldn't be better for min/max armies.

Funny how long fangs are the aged vets of the SW army (fluff wise). The headlong berzerker charge into combat stuff is for the youngsters. The old grizzled guys tend to like to keep things at range and have been doing it long enough that they know what to bring and how to use it. Wow... a unit that fits its fluff. I conceded that the weapons were under priced. What more do you want?

Also all codex marine lists can split fire their devistators as long as they combat squad them. Yeah yeah its more points... about 64 or so but you also get a BS5 shot out of it and 6 ablative wounds.

70pts more for BA's, 90pts more for C:SM, and they have 1 less Heavy Weapon. When you're talking about fire support units, the ablative wounds don't matter quite as much, and the cost increase is huge. 2 full BA dev squads with missile launchers is 420pts for 8 heavy weapons. 3 full LF squads with missile launchers is 420pts for 15 heavy weapons, double the firepower for the same number of points and able to engage 150-300% more targets.

Ablative wounds do matter. Take two wounds away from LF and your down two heavies leaving only 3 to fire. Those same two losses against normal devi squad and you still four guns firing. Hell take 6 wounds against a devi squad and you still have four heavies firing, while the LF squad has gone the way of the Squat. It all depends on how you build your army. Right now SMU is a very viable build. Maybe it wont be such a good idea when 6th ed rolls around. Who knows. SM can get 18 missile launches in FA from speeders, SW can only get 6. It rather depends on where you want to spend your points.

And again... I conceded that the weapons in a LF squad were under priced. What more do you want?

The main hate for the four HQs is that you can take 4 Rune Priests. Maybe they should have had the 0-1 tag attached.

Or rather just not made them the best psyker HQ's in the game

Why do people keep saying this when there is no mathhammer way to prove it right? Its just perceived opinion. They are no better than any other LD10 psycher when casting spells. They don't know more spells than any other psycher, they can't cast more spells than any other psycher (that can buy an upgrade to cast more than 1 spell). Even their psychic defense isn't better than the few table wide hoods or rune of warding that are still around (the extra 11% sucess rate is moot when you can hide in the corner and stop a spell from anywhere on the table. I've never ever seen a single model from an all jump pack army or DE army die to JOTWW. Where does this notion that they are the best come from. I'll take a farseer with its unit boosting abilities over a RP any day.

Sure minor things in some peoples eyes but they die just like any other marines.

while being cheaper, fightier, and generally more capable for fewer points with more (and usually cheaper) options.

Welcome to the new army design philosophy that started with IG codex. When DA gets redone you will see 13 point basic marines at the normal trend.

Jayden63 wrote:
Funny how long fangs are the aged vets of the SW army (fluff wise). The headlong berzerker charge into combat stuff is for the youngsters. The old grizzled guys tend to like to keep things at range and have been doing it long enough that they know what to bring and how to use it. Wow... a unit that fits its fluff. I conceded that the weapons were under priced. What more do you want?

It's not necessarily just about the price, but for an army that, on the whole, is supposedly about vicious vikings in space, why are their heavy weapons troops so much more experienced and capable than those from other armies that place a much greater emphasis on such troops?

Ablative wounds do matter.

I didn't say that they didn't, only that they didn't matter as much for back field fire support units as, sitting all the way at the back of the board like they typically do, it's more difficult for the enemy to bring them under fire.

Take two wounds away from LF and your down two heavies leaving only 3 to fire. Those same two losses against normal devi squad and you still four guns firing. Hell take 6 wounds against a devi squad and you still have four heavies firing,

Totally valid points, however if they *are* making use of those combat squad abilities, then each unit is less capable and less durable than a long fang squad.

SM can get 18 missile launches in FA from speeders, SW can only get 6. It rather depends on where you want to spend your points.

Two things. First, that's over 800pts worth of speeder. Second, looking at the SW codex, unless I'm totally missing something in this unit entry, so can SW's.

Why do people keep saying this when its wrong? They are no better than any other LD10 psycher when casting spells. They don't know more spells than any other psycher, they can't cast more spells than any other psycher (that can buy an upgrade to cast more than 1 spell).

Because they some of the most powerful spells in the game, Counterattack, Acute senses for psychic shooting attacks (living lightning and it's unlimited range in particular makes this nifty), better force weapons (they get that nifty "wound daemons on a 2+ ability), more options and a mathematically better psychic nullification than a psychic hood against other Ld10 units?

Even their psychic defense isn't better than the few table wide hoods or rune of warding that are still around

It's better than any psychic hood that isn't Dark Angels, and it's not like you see a whole lot of DA librarians.

I've never ever seen a single model from an all jump pack army or DE army die to JOTWW.

That's not their only excellent power (when you've seen a unit of carnifex's get killed by one power, or power klaws routinely sniped from within mobs, etc, it gets silly). There's also Living Lightning (unlimited range transport popper, Yes please!), cover provision, and excellent board control from Tempest's Wrath and Hurricane. All truly excellent powers. The only lame power is Geki/Freki and possibly thunderclap (though not bad against hordes when lacking a Flamer)

I'll take a farseer with its unit boosting abilities over a RP any day.

Farseer's have great abilities too, but serves a different role, support rather than offensive power, but as a total package, it's very hard to see where a Runepriest isn't a better buy all around most of the time, and cheaper.

Welcome to the new army design philosophy that started with IG codex.

it's hard to divine any consistent design philosophy here that IG started. It's not like Nids got hugely better, certainly not their basic infantry units, BA's still aren't a match in terms of points per effectiveness for SW's, rather it's the armor spam ability and widespread availability of Fast that really makes that army. It's hard to say anything on DE given how incredibly outdated they were.

Lynata wrote:I think the self-crippling adherence to established doctrines and standards gives the Ultramarines way more personality than the Space Wolves and their supposed drawbacks could ever have.

Their geneseed defect works pretty much like vampirism in Twilight in that it just makes their fans like them even more, and of course gives them supercool abilities making them even more "cool" in battle, because being a Space Marine isn't cool enough these days.

I think the true philosophical tragedy lies in what the Ultramarines are often accused of - sacrificing their humanity in order to serve mankind. Being a Space Marine isn't a part-time job. At least it shouldn't be.

Just my two bolt shells, of course.

And for the records, I also liked them as Vikings, once.

Their adherence is in no way crippling whatsoever. The only way that the Ultramarines managed to 'kill' 'Alpharius' was by breaking the traditions they hated the Alpha Legion for breaking.

I miss the days when it was more believable that Russ drank the Emperor under the table than Russ blasting the Emperor from afar with a ridiculous amount of heavy squads firing by smelling him.

They are the best at:

Close fire support -Bolters and Specials everywhere, counter attack means they don't care who assaults

Assault- Plenty of character support (4HQs) and Uber-Grit on Tactical types

Psychics- most useful powers in the game, may have 4, better gear to put on them

Firepower- 15 Heavies that take out 6 targets for cheaper than anybody else can take 10. Plus piles of Razorbacks as well.

Hmm... what else is there to 40k?


The reason they seem so OP to me? The amount of people who play them, even more, the amount of people who "counts-as" them using whatever they actually used to play.

Fleas man, fleas.

other than that I haven't seen a lot of SW hate out there. It has moved on as codex creep continued to BA and then GK.

Durza wrote:Their adherence is in no way crippling whatsoever. The only way that the Ultramarines managed to 'kill' 'Alpharius' was by breaking the traditions they hated the Alpha Legion for breaking.

And that doesn't feel like a sort-of pyrrhic victory to you?

Of course that's just my perception, undoubtedly tainted by personal preferences like most of us, but I could think that the UM's adherence occasionally makes them rather hamstrung by their own rules and unable to adapt to difficult/new situations. The SW just jump from situation to situation and win by default due to werewolves, fleets of Battle Barges and plot armour, regardless of whether they're fighting Chaos, xenos or the Imperium. And as if that wasn't enough to grant them the mary-sue tag, when the battle is over they don't lead the monastic lifestyle that is common for Astartes, but rather they revert to space bikers with castles who just scared anyone into not daring to look at them whilst simultaneously being oh-so-heroic and revered. At least that's what the stuff I've read makes them look like.

Very much agreed about the drinking part, though. In a way, I feel as if the space opera-style just had more class than what is often considered "cool" these days. :I

Lynata you forgot the wenches. Because asexuality isn't for real men.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Erm...you are confusing me.
They are not Vikings, okay fine.

But it is not the supporters that use this term. There have been several "I hates em coz dey is Space Vikings"?
The term Space Viking in itself is being used pejoratively from what I can see.

As to the first objection, not all of us give a monkeys about a (fictional) bunch of oppressive idiots that the Imperium is.
Personally I also didn't want Chaos either. A faction that is able to stick its fingers up to the Inquisition sounds good to me.
Your light years may vary
Also I like Nordic myth, so why would Space Wolves (who by your own admission have a nordic theme which is okay) be seen as a bad thing?

Edit:Then I see Ash's post above who likes them as Vikings!

Ash
Honestly don't know but there may have been a conscious borrowing from Nordic myth of the berserker tradition. There are stories of a similar kind, except that the wolf replaces the bear in the battle frenzy.

Okay. Nothing really to say about allegedly people hating them by virtue of them being "Space Vikings."

See here's the thing, me liking the Inquisition has nothing to do with why I dislike the Space Wolves defying them... It's the fact that they get away with that and other examples of outright heresy without anyone seeming to care. It's that they could, like Dorn, tell Guilliman to shove his book up his ass... Only unlike Dorn, no one seemed to care. The Imperial Fists were being declared traitors for refusing the Codex Astartes. Apparently, the Space Wolves are so supar kewl that they can get away with it, by virtue of their kewlness. Which is the real problem. There is no valid reason for the Space Wolves not being called out on that crap. Not like the Dark Angels, who are at least subtle in their insubordinance.

Aren't the wenches there just for eye-candy and resting flagons of beer upon? I believe all the references to Space Wolf sexcapades of epicness are from their pre-Marine days.

Psienesis wrote:Aren't the wenches there just for eye-candy and resting flagons of beer upon? I believe all the references to Space Wolf sexcapades of epicness are from their pre-Marine days.

One story in the codex mentions a Space Wolf making a pass at some random woman.

Granted, this random woman turned out, as did everyone else there, to not be human, and the Space Wolves were never seen again, but it's the thought that counts.

Fluff reasons aside (and those are numerous), they are just the favored poster child of GW. Every version of their army has been among the most powerful armies of its edition, if not the top army. They are supposed to be this army with a disdain of psykers and deepstrike, with an emphasis on hand to hand. Well, they got the emphasis on hand to hand (yay Long Fangs with Counter Attack and able to have two Power Weapons wtf?) with the most undercosted core unit in the game, that is capable of going toe to toe with the most elite units in the entire game. Thats acceptable, if a little unbalanced. But then they also got the most efficient long range firepower around, wide access to drop pods to give them safe reliable deep strike, and the best psyker in the entire game (offensively, defensively, and cost effectiveness).

This isn't exactly new, as the pamphlet Wolf codex was incredibly good right up until the moment it got rendered obsolete. Of course it was the NEW wolf book that did that....

Even this blatant brokeness I could tolerate, but in an era where every other book has had its options mostly dumbed down, they retained all of their customization and wargear options. Terminator Armor and Coward Shields for Everyone! Meanwhile, Dark Eldar got their options stipped down and even the versitile GKs have inquisitors that can no longer ever have anything resembling an invulnerable save.

Plus Jaws can eat the peanuts out of my poo.... It autowins against so many armies that were already at a disadvantage to begin with....

Void__Dragon wrote:Lynata you forgot the wenches. Because asexuality isn't for real men.

True.

That said, for the time being I've chosen to regard them basically as "eyecandy" as Psienesis put it, for I want to believe that the Space Wolves are at least biologically like other Marines (minus the furry mutation) even though they don't act like it. Call it "damage limitation" if you will.

I'd probably have to take a read through that Codex now, though, for I've made it a personal policy to bow down before GW canon no matter what. :I

SlaveToDorkness wrote:I love their fluff and the idea behind their warrior archetype.

I hate the things the inexplicably get.

5 Heavies in a Fang squad (and splitfire plus a add-on that may have another heavy) for CHEAP!

4 HQs for NO reason whatsoever

Ugh... lots of other things.

Our Plasma Cannons are 5 points more expensive than the norm, and the only break we get in Long Fangs is 5 points less for a heavy bolter


However I love the 4 HQ choices

They're Space Marines, but better and cheaper for no discernible reason.

Lynata wrote:True.

That said, for the time being I've chosen to regard them basically as "eyecandy" as Psienesis put it, for I want to believe that the Space Wolves are at least biologically like other Marines (minus the furry mutation) even though they don't act like it. Call it "damage limitation" if you will.

I'd probably have to take a read through that Codex now, though, for I've made it a personal policy to bow down before GW canon no matter what. :I

Well, admittedly, it's not "overt" in the fluff, only implied through one part of a story in the Space Wolf codex. Even so, the effect is still present, you don't see the Blood Angels codex talking about how legendary Mephiston was with the ladies before becoming a marine, nor do you see Ultramarines making passes at women.

It's a pretty boring read. Seriously.

It kinda makes sense smelling something foreign and then blasting it to pieces, but storywise . . . its slowed.


Also I feel like the most bland chapter is the IronHands. At least the Ultramarines get a bunch of named characters . . . the Ironhands don't even have a specific set of tactics.

The Black Templars are the biggest chapter, but the Ultramarines can call upon other chapters of their ilk. I give the "Biggest" chapter award to the Ultramarines.

Imperial Fists have technically have the best/most fluff considering they 'consist' of the Black Templars and Crimson Fists chapters as well. Honestly I feel like Ultramarines should have something better other than being good at running away.