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Dytalus wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Necrons aren't united at all. The codex clearly states this and each Dynasty acts independently of the others while trying to get an advantage over them at best, and at worse they fight each other (and this is very common). All the Dynasties are working to restore themselves to their former glory, yeah, but that entails fighting the other and civil war is common in Tomb Worlds (just see the Zahndrekh entry). Don't be surprised when Tomb Worlds start allying with "lesser" races to fight another Tomb World.

The Zahndrekh entry isn't him fighting actual rebels. He's fighting orks. He just thinks he's fighting the wars of succession, and so he sees everyone as Necrontyr he's fighting against.

I actually meant Imotekh, sorry. His entry states that when he awoke Mandragora was torn apart by civil war between Necron Lords.

daveNYC wrote:

Unfortunately someone now needs to tell the Tau that since they don't have psykers, they're going to have to start using the webway to get around too. At this point with the Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Harlequins, and soon, the Tau running around in there, it must be getting pretty crowded.

You forgot the Demons who like to pour into that webway wherever they can...

SoulGazer wrote: I think this is an issue of one writer taking over for another writer and had different orders from GW to make Necrons less of a threat than Chaos for 6th edition. Essentially, the inertialess drive was too good, so they took it away.

Thought that too.
Fluff in 5th is sometimes stretched across several codices and is most likely consistent, whilst other small blurbs and details one would love to know are done without care.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Since 2nd Edition, every faction's codex has depicted them as the baddest-assest army in the setting, and illustrated that with a list of examples of how they have crushed all their rivals at least once. Frankly, it got boring a long time ago.

Unless the Necrons take-off quite remarkably in sales terms, they will, fluff badassery or not, within month or two, go back to being footnotes for the next few years.

I've almost every dex and none of them do this as much as people think and none as much as Necrons.

The Blood Angel Codex has a bunch of narrow wins, a few defeats, some draws etc. Codex Space Marines also paints a few battles ups and downs. IG was back and forth, Tau was mostly wins that had follow ups in different dexes.

The Necron Codex is simply them beating the s*** out of everyone with ease. Not even GKs got the hot streak of wins like they did.

That's not strictly accurate, I've just flicked through the various Space Marine codices and counted only a handful of outright defeats, all of which are there to build the tragic, grimdark atmosphere which has proven so popular. I can't comment on the Guard, but I would be disappointed if the codex didn't contain tales of futile battles and massive casualties; they're a significant part of what the Imperial Guard are about.

Nonetheless, since I haven't read the Necron codex, I'll cheerfully take you word that its fluff is more hyperbolic than is customary, but given how important the occasional disaster is to building and maintaining characterisation and mood, I would think it rather counter-productive for Games Workshop to have intentionally transformed the Necrons into unbeatable, unstoppable Mary-Sues in the name of making them supposedly 'more characterful'. That they have (or appear to have) done so, suggests to me only that they are desperate to increase the appeal of their hitherto-unpopular space undead.

In any case, I very much doubt that it implies anything for the Warhammer 40,000 universe as a whole, and would wager that the Necrons will return to their neglected state by the time 6th Edition is launched.

Brother Coa wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:It's not even a contest anymore, they have a galaxy map that can make any star they desire go super nova.

This is one of the few things I don't like in new fluff ( this one in particular ). They gave them to much power, in fact they gave them so much power that it is pointless fighting against this particular dynasty. Tau a problem? Blow up 13 suns and problem solved. Tyranids a problem? Blow up 100 Stars and problem solved. Imperium a problem? Blow up 1.000.000+ suns and problem solved.
Good they add that this Dynasty is never going to use the machine and that they fight even Necrons to deny any access of it.

Actually, if the Imperium is a problem, you only have to blow up the Sol system, as that would extinguish the Astronomicon, and effectively change the Imperium from an empire of a billion worlds, to a billion one-world empires. The Imperium is so dependent on the Astronomicon for communication and travel that removing it also removes humanity as any sort of credible threat.

If you buy into the Star Child theory, then this would turn out differently, but hasn't the Star Child theory been practically "Squatted"?

Also, Necron space superiority was always a given when the numbers of vessels involved were close to even, and they only started to suffer losses (i.e. destroyed ships) when the numbers were drastically against them. Their vessels were faster, more maneuverable, more heavily armed (they had weapons that could bypass Void Shields and Holofields), and way, way tougher than anything the other races have. Their Inertialess Drives gave them FTL capability that the other races could not duplicate (or track). Did they really change all that so drastically?

Mustela wrote:I say...

Go ahead and blow up Terra.

Star Child anyone?

Chaos Gods anyone?

Dytalus wrote:Necron ships were always squishy, mainly due to the Imperium's love affair with stupidly big guns (nothing screams , DIE YOU BASTID like a gun with a barrel the size of your car). Their power came from how difficult they were to target and the fact that their weapons were far, far better than Imperial weapons. If a Tomb Ship was ambushed, I don't doubt a Battle Barge (one of the most powerful ships in the Imperium) would be capable of bringing its shields down.

This is frankly not true by any stretch of the word.

Necron ships are the most durable in the setting, their incredible durability is repeatedly emphasized in the old codex and BFG, at least.

Their only real flaw was that there was so damn few Necron ships in any Naval battle. In most other regards though, they dominated the space scene.

English Assassin wrote:Nonetheless, since I haven't read the Necron codex, I'll cheerfully take you word that its fluff is more hyperbolic than is customary, but given how important the occasional disaster is to building and maintaining characterisation and mood, I would think it rather counter-productive for Games Workshop to have intentionally transformed the Necrons into unbeatable, unstoppable Mary-Sues in the name of making them supposedly 'more characterful'. That they have (or appear to have) done so, suggests to me only that they are desperate to increase the appeal of their hitherto-unpopular space undead.

Don't worry about beef. I actually think the codex is well done and well written. I'm not so sure about the fluff turns they've taken and some of the retcons but the codex itself isn't just a huge block of fluff about how necrons are unstoppable. Far from it. There are defeats in their codex. Ignore the trolls that are trying to convince people otherwise.


On another note...

It never says necrons have no FTL travel outside of the webway. The story kind of suggested to me that they only built those gates in order to take the fight to Old Ones just hiding in the webway and hoping the don't get caught. I think the Necrons obviously must still have some sort of FTL travel outside of the webway, thus Inertialess Drives.

BrainDeleted wrote:Don't worry about beef. I actually think the codex is well done and well written. I'm not so sure about the fluff turns they've taken and some of the retcons but the codex itself isn't just a huge block of fluff about how necrons are unstoppable. Far from it. There are defeats in their codex. Ignore the trolls that are trying to convince people otherwise.


On another note...

It never says necrons have no FTL travel outside of the webway. The story kind of suggested to me that they only built those gates in order to take the fight to Old Ones just hiding in the webway and hoping the don't get caught. I think the Necrons obviously must still have some sort of FTL travel outside of the webway, thus Inertialess Drives.

What losses are in the codex? Other than a few vague comments about the Orks giving Imotekh some trouble (Not enough to make him described as undefeated mind you) and the Black Templars destroying Imotekh's flagship, what losses are really there?

Uh, only the codex actually states that without the Dolmen Gates, the Necrons would be fethed and unable to travel the galaxy.

Void__Dragon wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:Don't worry about beef. I actually think the codex is well done and well written. I'm not so sure about the fluff turns they've taken and some of the retcons but the codex itself isn't just a huge block of fluff about how necrons are unstoppable. Far from it. There are defeats in their codex. Ignore the trolls that are trying to convince people otherwise.


On another note...

It never says necrons have no FTL travel outside of the webway. The story kind of suggested to me that they only built those gates in order to take the fight to Old Ones just hiding in the webway and hoping the don't get caught. I think the Necrons obviously must still have some sort of FTL travel outside of the webway, thus Inertialess Drives.

What losses are in the codex? Other than a few vague comments about the Orks giving Imotekh some trouble (Not enough to make him described as undefeated mind you) and the Black Templars destroying Imotekh's flagship, what losses are really there?

Uh, only the codex actually states that without the Dolmen Gates, the Necrons would be fethed and unable to travel the galaxy.

Haha NO! No No No NO!

That isn't right at all. I could understand the web way being breached as a tactical maneuver to rob the old ones of their superior maneuverability, but as the SOLE way of transportation?

Now that pretty ing bull . They are necrons dammit. They shouldn't have to use the warp.

Well, at least the codex pointed out that they had no psykers and needed to force their way into the webway. That takes some of the sting off...but not enough

Void__Dragon wrote:What losses are in the codex? Other than a few vague comments about the Orks giving Imotekh some trouble (Not enough to make him described as undefeated mind you) and the Black Templars destroying Imotekh's flagship, what losses are really there?

Uh, only the codex actually states that without the Dolmen Gates, the Necrons would be fethed and unable to travel the galaxy.

OK.

1) The Lazar Blockade - A tomb world is destroyed by the Silver Skulls. Actually, the codex says "obliterated"
2) The Dissolution of Burr - Fire Lords destroy a Necron Overlord on Burr.
3) The End of WAAAGH! 'Eadcrumpa - The newly awakened tomb world of Suranas is no match for the Orks so they give them some big guns in order to survive. (Yes, this kills the orks later but only because the orks break the guns open. Hardly can be claimed as a victory for the 'crons. It's just a result of ork hilarity.)

That's just skimming the little timeline thing, I don't have time to read through anything else.

Imotekh is hardly undefeated...It says no matter how hard he tries, he can't beat orks. Or rarely can. Also, he lost his flag ship to a BT ambush. Losing your flagship in anything other than a major battle (Usually after it's fought heroically already) is what we call a humiliating failure.

BrainDeleted wrote:OK.

1) The Lazar Blockade - A tomb world is destroyed by the Silver Skulls. Actually, the codex says "obliterated"
2) The Dissolution of Burr - Fire Lords destroy a Necron Overlord on Burr.
3) The End of WAAAGH! 'Eadcrumpa - The newly awakened tomb world of Suranas is no match for the Orks so they give them some big guns in order to survive. (Yes, this kills the orks later but only because the orks break the guns open. Hardly can be claimed as a victory for the 'crons. It's just a result of ork hilarity.)

That's just skimming the little timeline thing, I don't have time to read through anything else.

Imotekh is hardly undefeated...It says no matter how hard he tries, he can't beat orks. Or rarely can. Also, he lost his flag ship to a BT ambush. Losing your flagship in anything other than a major battle (Usually after it's fought heroically already) is what we call a humiliating failure.

1. They destroyed a Tomb World, only to then be trapped and forced into a gruelling campaign for their haste.

2. True, but the Imperials still lost two planets to the Necrons.

3. That's not really a loss. Considering it means that their anti-tank weaponry does in fact have enough energy to obliterate entire planets. It's a Necron Overlord being savvy and intelligent enough to avoid a battle he isn't ready for, and then an extreme showcase of the power of Necron technology.

Uh, it certainly does not say that. He can't win "lasting victories," but he has never been defeated by them. Though you are right, he is not described as undefeated in general, just having yet to be defeated by Helbrecht.

It certainly doesn't say he's undefeated to orks. If he was undefeated, then he'd win a lasting victory...Be wiping the floor with them every time he saw them. Not winning a lasting victory = Losing battles.

BrainDeleted wrote:It certainly doesn't say he's undefeated to orks. If he was undefeated, then he'd win a lasting victory...Be wiping the floor with them every time he saw them. Not winning a lasting victory = Losing battles.

Not necessarily.

Draigo can't win a lasting victory against Chaos.

Mind telling me what battles he's lost?

Oh, I guess the orks instantly coalesce back into existence as soon as he is done smearing them into a bloody pulp? Or he's a complete idiot and doesn't know how to get rid of their spores?

If he won every battle he fought against the orks, he would win a lasting victory against them....Since the orks would never be able to take back what he won from them. Therefor it is a lasting victory...Ugh, do I really have to argue this with you?

...He's just lost battles to their unpredictable and chaotic style of combat, the opposite of his logical method of warfare. That's what it reads as...arguing otherwise is foolish...At least IMO. I understand your rage against the codex as a Necron veteran but please don't make a silly argument out of bitterness.

BrainDeleted wrote:Oh, I guess the orks instantly coalesce back into existence as soon as he is done smearing them into a bloody pulp? Or he's a complete idiot and doesn't know how to get rid of their spores?

If he won every battle he fought against the orks, he would win a lasting victory against them....Since the orks would never be able to take back what he won from them. Therefor it is a lasting victory...Ugh, do I really have to argue this with you?

...He's just lost battles to their unpredictable and chaotic style of combat, the opposite of his logical method of warfare. That's what it reads as...arguing otherwise is foolish...At least IMO. I understand your rage against the codex as a Necron veteran but please don't make a silly argument out of bitterness.

Rage? I am perfectly calm. As a matter of fact, I'm actually almost fond of Imotekh, him being in concept at least how I'd imagine your typical Deceiver-aligned Necron Lord would act, though his name is all kinds of lame.

That said, I'm not sure what or why I was arguing before, so I'll concede that he's probably lost if nothing else battles against the Orks, and obviously has more trouble against them than anyone else.

I'm not really entirely convinced that they are as invincible as Beef says, mind you. I do think the Celestial Orrery is completely ridiculous though, a faction with technology that ludicrously powerful shouldn't be able to be threatened by the Imperium, or anyone else.

Void__Dragon wrote:
What losses are in the codex? Other than a few vague comments about the Orks giving Imotekh some trouble (Not enough to make him described as undefeated mind you) and the Black Templars destroying Imotekh's flagship, what losses are really there?

Silvers Sculls with help from 4 Space Marine chapters destroy an entire Tomb World. Lazar system I think it was called.

Thanks for this thread...

Now I gotta get my hands on a codex to read some of it.

However, it is my belief that the newer codexes will balance these changes.

Tau and Chaos due soonish.

AvatarForm wrote:
Tau and Chaos due soonish.

Black Templars, then Tau, then everyone else...

Void__Dragon wrote:
The Celestial Orrery? That's the most ridiculous thing in the codex. It means that at any given time, if all else fails, the Necrons need just press a button and all of the sudden Terra has been destroyed, enveloped by the sun going supernova. That's beyond ridiculous. I find it incredibly ironic as well, considering that most of the bitching concerning the Necrons when they were released is that they were seen as too powerful and unstoppable. Now they can destroy Terra with the press of a button. But that's not overpowered at all, lol...

Calm down.

If you read the description properly, it says that it makes the star go critical before it's time, not immediately. The Sun has another few million years worth of existence, so even if the Orrery halved that to 2 million years, that is still 5 times longer than the IoM has been in existence. Again, for the Necrons, 2My is no big deal, but remember, they want people alive to experiment on them to see if they make acceptable hosts...

Sol is actually good for another five billion years before it goes red giant, though in about a billion years it will heat up enough to make Earth unlivable. It also doesn't have enough mass to go supernova.

On the subject of the magic galaxy map, there's no point in making a weapon that destroys your enemies in two million years. If you want them dead so badly that you're willing to use that weapon, and deal with the side effects and cleanup, then you probably want them dead now, not a million years from now.

Necrons do have FTL it says at the start of the codex says they used torch ships. The only reason the old ones where winning is due to Webway is faster then FTL travel, If your using FTL you can't go in a straight line to the location you want to go to as there will be planets / stars in the way. With the webway being on a different plane that was not a problem.

The Webway is faster than faster than light? Ok then.

iproxtaco wrote:The Webway is faster than faster than light? Ok then.

Even faster then light you have to follow physics, gravity, things in the way etc. The web way can be moved, reshaped and follows less laws of physics. Ofc Webway will be faster. Also they used Webway to beat the Old ones, if they could beaten them with FTL they would of no?

Well, sort of? The problem is that the old ones could just sort of camp out in the webway if things went badly for them in real space. That's why you have to penetrate the webway to beat them. It's not because of the webway being faster than them.

daveNYC wrote:On the subject of the magic galaxy map, there's no point in making a weapon that destroys your enemies in two million years. If you want them dead so badly that you're willing to use that weapon, and deal with the side effects and cleanup, then you probably want them dead now, not a million years from now.

While true, there's no telling if the Necrons actually have the technology to instantly destroy stars. All we know is that the Celestial Orrery can make stars go supernova millenia before they should.

Bassline wrote:Also they used Webway to beat the Old ones, if they could beaten them with FTL they would of no?

If I recall correctly, they managed to enter the Webway towards the end of the war, which suggests that they were winning the war prior to the Dolmen Gates (and as such, they almost certainly were able to move faster-than-light.)

What? If they had FTL travel, then why does it say under the paragraph on Dolmen Gates that without the webway, they are forced to rely on slow voyaging stasis ships.

Because Mat Ward had one of his idiot fits and wrote down something really, really stupid. It's a big middle finger to Battlefleet Gothic or anything it has released on the Necrons. Personally, it's a bit of fluff I'm ignoring. Necrons still have Inertialess FTL.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:What? If they had FTL travel, then why does it say under the paragraph on Dolmen Gates that without the webway, they are forced to rely on slow voyaging stasis ships.

1. Fans are making up the rules of the Galaxy Map. Lulz @ that. On the subject of it blowing stars it is never mentioned that they have ANY limitations on the device. If they want a star gone, they wipe it out on the map and it explodes in real time millions of years before it should.

2. The Necrons have FTL aka the World Engine, Imotehk escaping Helbrechts ambush, Winning a war against a race that had the Webway, and Ana traveling numerous Tomb worlds across the galaxy in the span of the 41st. None of which would be possible unless they had a competitive means of FTL travel. In the case of the Tau, the Codex addresses slower FTL travel, in this case, fans are looking too much into it.

BrainDeleted wrote:

Codex: Necrons wrote:Such an act cannot be performed without consideration, however, as each star destroyed in this fashion upsets the fundamental forces of the galaxy, setting off a catastrophic chain reaction.

Limitation.

Also, it doesn't say in real time. Just says "long millennia before its destined time "

iproxtaco wrote:Because Mat Ward had one of his idiot fits and wrote down something really, really stupid. It's a big middle finger to Battlefleet Gothic or anything it has released on the Necrons. Personally, it's a bit of fluff that crushed me. Necrons don't have Inertialess FTL anymore.

This is so true



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrainDeleted wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:

Codex: Necrons wrote:Such an act cannot be performed without consideration, however, as each star destroyed in this fashion upsets the fundamental forces of the galaxy, setting off a catastrophic chain reaction.

Limitation.

In short: they destroy a star intentionally and gravity, dark matter and dark energy do wonderful things to the galaxy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
2. The Necrons have FTL aka the World Engine, Imotehk escaping Helbrechts ambush, Winning a war against a race that had the Webway, and Ana traveling numerous Tomb worlds across the galaxy in the span of the 41st. None of which would be possible unless they had a competitive means of FTL travel. In the case of the Tau, the Codex addresses slower FTL travel, in this case, fans are looking too much into it.

They have FTL, but a very primitive one, possibly only 2x maybe 3x faster then light. If you saw carefully Imotehk traveled decayed's from tomb world to tomb world. They still ned a lot of time to travel between two worlds while Imperials do that in several minutes.