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Brother Coa wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
2. The Necrons have FTL aka the World Engine, Imotehk escaping Helbrechts ambush, Winning a war against a race that had the Webway, and Ana traveling numerous Tomb worlds across the galaxy in the span of the 41st. None of which would be possible unless they had a competitive means of FTL travel. In the case of the Tau, the Codex addresses slower FTL travel, in this case, fans are looking too much into it.

They have FTL, but a very primitive one, possibly only 2x maybe 3x faster then light. If you saw carefully Imotehk traveled decayed's from tomb world to tomb world. They still ned a lot of time to travel between two worlds while Imperials do that in several minutes.

Primitive? It's more advanced than what the Imperium has, since they rely completely on the erratic universe of the Warp and require a Navigator AND the Astronomicon to be able to do it. 2 times as fast as the speed of light still wouldn't make them able to take over the Galaxy like they did.

Oh, and Imperials don't do it in several minutes. It takes anything from several days to better part of a year to travel from point to point. Necrons? Webway, or Inertialess Drives.

I was thinking from star system to star system, we saw in DoW II that they can be in another star system in 1 day even.

And Imperium really don't have FTL, they use another dimension to travel witch is cheating but it is effective, most of the times.

And you can't take over the galaxy in 2x light years FTL. You will need 50.000 years from one side of the galaxy to the other and that is damn slow.

Xenith wrote:Calm down.

If you read the description properly, it says that it makes the star go critical before it's time, not immediately. The Sun has another few million years worth of existence, so even if the Orrery halved that to 2 million years, that is still 5 times longer than the IoM has been in existence. Again, for the Necrons, 2My is no big deal, but remember, they want people alive to experiment on them to see if they make acceptable hosts...

Sadly the notion that it takes time for a star to supernova when using the Celestial Orrery and the notion that it happens right away has about the same amount of basis: Which is to say admittedly not much. A vague timeframe is given, which is to say millenia before its time, but that could be a few million years before or immediately. So while it could take time to occur, it could easily be instantaneous.

You'd know I was aware of this if you didn't pick out a small part of one of my posts and actually read my subsequent posts.

Personally I don't see the use of a weapon that requires millions of years to start working. Patient the Necrons may be, but the younger races are not, and won't just sit around with their thumbs up their ass until the planet supernovas. If the Imperium for instance is set to go boom in the next few million years due to the Celestial Orrery, for all the Necrons know in a million years they could have the means to protect against it, move Terra the feth out of the way, or whatever.

Also, Coa, are you referring to the Inertialess Drives as slow FTL, or the Torch Ships?

Doesn't matter though. Necrons will always have Inertialess Drives in my mind. Dolmen Gates exist solely for the purpose of doing raids in the Webway.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:What? If they had FTL travel, then why does it say under the paragraph on Dolmen Gates that without the webway, they are forced to rely on slow voyaging stasis ships.

Because it can be faster-than-light and still be slow compared to the Webway (which is what, nearly instantaneous? Nearly everything is going to be slow compared to that.)

The only other reasoning that I can see is that if the Necrons manage to reach a world, they can still teleport their forces there. Essentially, slow to expand, but incredibly difficult to dislodge once they do so due to instant reinforcements, and it makes it easy to use that base to expand further. Is it said whether or not they can teleport ships? Judging by the Grey Knight Necron world thing I say yes, but I'm wondering if there's any definitive statement on the matter?

The codex directly states that without the Dolmen Gates the Necrons would have to use the slow-voyaging stasis ships.

The Inertialess Drives are gone.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Dolmen Gates exist solely for the purpose of doing raids in the Webway.

Exactly. This is how it should have been. But no, we get lame ass primitive as torch ships. Bloody Dev Team...

Thus making the Necrons local threat only, not galactic.
And that sucks, it also makes Imperium chances for survival even higher.

Well, you have to consider there are a lot of Necron Empires.

Imotekh's Empire, consisting of IIRC 80 Tomb Worlds, and give times that with the populations forced to pay tribue and falling under his rule, is already larger than the Tau Empire. He has accomplished this in two hundred years.

Brother Coa wrote:Thus making the Necrons local threat only, not galactic.
And that sucks, it also makes Imperium chances for survival even higher.

Of course it makes them galactic? Or are the Eldar/Dark Eldar suddenly unable to go wherever they want as well?

Not to mention the Tomb Worlds are all over the place, they aren't focused in one area of the Galaxy. There's millions of them everywhere.

We're certainly not a major concern now, but that was never the case. It's always been the case that the current Necron threat in the immediate future is small. But in the eventual future (read, a few hundred years or so) they are a massive threat.

Dytalus wrote:
Not to mention the Tomb Worlds are all over the place, they aren't focused in one area of the Galaxy. There's millions of them everywhere.

"There are thousands of Tomb Worlds scattered trough the galaxy whose halls are thronged with shambling automatons." Necron Codex 5'th edition, page 8

No million anywhere. And if the codex is to be believed most of Tomb Worlds are stationed at Galactic North were was original Necrontyr empire stationed.


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Void__Dragon wrote:Well, you have to consider there are a lot of Necron Empires.

Imotekh's Empire, consisting of IIRC 80 Tomb Worlds, and give times that with the populations forced to pay tribue and falling under his rule, is already larger than the Tau Empire. He has accomplished this in two hundred years.

True and true, however every empire is fighting anong themselves as much as alien intruders. Necrons are only threat when united, and the only one who had the power to unite them was Silent King who returned but seems it has a trouble uniting them again. The codex also states that Imotehk's Empire is doomed in the near future since it will be attacked in the same time by 5 different factions. ( one of them are Ultramrines, I smell War connection here ).

Brother Coa wrote:

Dytalus wrote:
Not to mention the Tomb Worlds are all over the place, they aren't focused in one area of the Galaxy. There's millions of them everywhere.

"There are thousands of Tomb Worlds scattered trough the galaxy whose halls are thronged with shambling automatons." Necron Codex 5'th edition, page 8

No million anywhere. And if the codex is to be believed most of Tomb Worlds are stationed at Galactic North were was original Necrontyr empire stationed.

Page 17, "These tomb worlds represent no more than a handful of the many millions spread throughout the galaxy."

I'm also going to have to ask for evidence of the Necrontyr empire being in the North. Imotekh certainly is in the East of the galaxy.

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Void__Dragon wrote:Well, you have to consider there are a lot of Necron Empires.

Imotekh's Empire, consisting of IIRC 80 Tomb Worlds, and give times that with the populations forced to pay tribue and falling under his rule, is already larger than the Tau Empire. He has accomplished this in two hundred years.

True and true, however every empire is fighting anong themselves as much as alien intruders. Necrons are only threat when united, and the only one who had the power to unite them was Silent King who returned but seems it has a trouble uniting them again. The codex also states that Imotehk's Empire is doomed in the near future since it will be attacked in the same time by 5 different factions. ( one of them are Ultramrines, I smell War connection here ).

It doesn't state it's doomed. It states that it will be tested. Two totally different things. Granted, it's going to be a tough test, but Imotekh as 80 Necron worlds at his disposal, and 400 lesser worlds offering tribute. That's a huge amount at his disposal. Unless the Tau, Eldar and Ultramarines suddenly stop beating up each other, Imotekh won't have to face all 3 at once. 4 if you include the Tyranids coming up behind the Iyanden Eldar craftworld, but they definitely would focus on the others more than the Necrons. More stuff to eat.

Imotekh's done very well for himself so far. That can't be denied. I can see him being slowed, but not destroyed in the future. Not easily anyway. He's been able to manipulate the Tyranids into attacking fleshy things before, he can do it again. The Ultramarines...okay yeah, they'll be tough. But they have other problems too beyond just Imotekh. And the Tau (IIRC, I only have the 3rd ed Codex) are busy consolidating their hold on the most recent sphere expansion so won't be poking at Imotekh for a while.

Void__Dragon wrote:The codex directly states that without the Dolmen Gates the Necrons would have to use the slow-voyaging stasis ships.

The Inertialess Drives are gone.

Yes, but "slow-voyaging" is not elaborated on. It could be comparatively slowly (well, it always is, but we don't know how comparatively slowly they are).

Ugh the quote doesn't even make sense. Why would the current Necrons ever use statis ships again? They're metal! They don't need stasis to keep from getting old and decaying!

I choose Interialess Drives!

The 'Torchships' bit is one of those instances in which Ward (or whoever wrote it) uses 'hard' sci-fi terminology, but mostly gets it wrong.

For those interested, here's a link explaining what a Torchship is and what it does:

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/torchships.php

I'm not buying the idea of an interstellar empire (much less an interstellar WAR) built on relativistic speeds and sub-light space travel. The Necrons and the Necrontyr before them MUST have had some sort of FTL technology other than Webway access. Come on, the War in Heaven would have been over before the first shot was fired or, if the Old Ones and their allies didn't have FTL either, would have dragged on well into the 41st millenium!.

If the writers wanted to make the Necrons a more local threat there was no need to remove the highly advanced Inertialess Drive. It could still be a trait of Necron ships while in 'real space', just not an universal 'instant teleport' thing. But still they must have some sort of FTL other than Dolmen Gates and the Webway. Even the non-psychic Tau have one!.

Dytalus wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Dytalus wrote:
Not to mention the Tomb Worlds are all over the place, they aren't focused in one area of the Galaxy. There's millions of them everywhere.

"There are thousands of Tomb Worlds scattered trough the galaxy whose halls are thronged with shambling automatons." Necron Codex 5'th edition, page 8

No million anywhere. And if the codex is to be believed most of Tomb Worlds are stationed at Galactic North were was original Necrontyr empire stationed.

Page 17, "These tomb worlds represent no more than a handful of the many millions spread throughout the galaxy."

Throne of Terra, this codex contradict itself.
It can't say "There are thousands of Tomb Worlds in the galaxy", and then to say "there are millions of Tomb Wolrd in the galaxy" some 9 pages later.
I see that some of those that write the fluff didn't consolidate at all.
I do not believe either of this info until someone from GW tell how much exactly Tomb World Necrons have.

I'm also going to have to ask for evidence of the Necrontyr empire being in the North. Imotekh certainly is in the East of the galaxy.

See: Atun Dynasty, their tomb worlds are at the northern galactic rime. That's the birthplace of Necrontyr according to codex, it would be logical to assume that most of the Dynasties are located around it with others being at various places in galaxy.


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All in all....it seems that I will need to make a new one brothers and sisters:

Brother Coa wrote:

Dytalus wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Dytalus wrote:
Not to mention the Tomb Worlds are all over the place, they aren't focused in one area of the Galaxy. There's millions of them everywhere.

"There are thousands of Tomb Worlds scattered trough the galaxy whose halls are thronged with shambling automatons." Necron Codex 5'th edition, page 8

No million anywhere. And if the codex is to be believed most of Tomb Worlds are stationed at Galactic North were was original Necrontyr empire stationed.

Page 17, "These tomb worlds represent no more than a handful of the many millions spread throughout the galaxy."

Throne of Terra, this codex contradict itself.
It can't say "There are thousands of Tomb Worlds in the galaxy", and then to say "there are millions of Tomb Wolrd in the galaxy" some 9 pages later.
I see that some of those that write the fluff didn't consolidate at all.
I do not believe either of this info until someone from GW tell how much exactly Tomb World Necrons have.

Saying there are millions does not contradict there being thousands. Given that a thousand thousand is a million (in Europe, anyway. I'm aware in some places in the world a million is ten thousand....which is weird to me). Similarly, there are cases where the fluff uses the word "thousands" to describe how many worlds the Imperium commands, but nobody would argue it controls less than at least a million.

I'd imagine the number of sleeping Tombs is about equivalent to the number of worlds currently owned by the Imperium. Both the Necrontyr and the Imperium were galaxy spanning, and the War in Heaven was described as reaching every corner of the galaxy.

Brother Coa wrote:Throne of Terra, this codex contradict itself.
It can't say "There are thousands of Tomb Worlds in the galaxy", and then to say "there are millions of Tomb Wolrd in the galaxy" some 9 pages later.
I see that some of those that write the fluff didn't consolidate at all.
I do not believe either of this info until someone from GW tell how much exactly Tomb World Necrons have.

Context is all.

The "thousands of Tomb Worlds" example is referring to a specific kind of Tomb World, worlds where every Necron inside has been rendered mindless necessitating the Tomb World exerting control of all Necrons directly, referred to as Severed Worlds.

The contradiction exists only in your mind.

How can 1.000+ be same as 1.000.000+?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Yes, but "slow-voyaging" is not elaborated on. It could be comparatively slowly (well, it always is, but we don't know how comparatively slowly they are).

Inertialess Drives were never comparitively slow. They were the most efficient and among the fastest FTL methods in the galaxy, rivaling the Webway in sheer speed and surpassing it in reliability.

Now their non-Dolmen Gates travel is garbage.

Inertialess Drives are gone, for no reason other than someone in the Dev-team being a moron.


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Brother Coa wrote:How can 1.000+ be same as 1.000.000+?

Is this to me?

You skimmed the actual passage and misinterpreted what it was saying.

Brother Coa wrote:How can 1.000+ be same as 1.000.000+?

Is 1,000,000 greater than 1,000? Then it falls into the 1,000+ category. Ergo, something over 1,000,000 is also over 1,000.

Plus you know as I said the "thousands" quote is referring only to the Severed Worlds.

Stop ignoring me guise.

Void__Dragon wrote:Plus you know as I said the "thousands" quote is referring only to the Severed Worlds.

Stop ignoring me guise.

But but but...you ninja posted me. I didn't see you. ; _ ;

Dytalus wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:How can 1.000+ be same as 1.000.000+?

Is 1,000,000 greater than 1,000? Then it falls into the 1,000+ category. Ergo, something over 1,000,000 is also over 1,000.

Math is hard.

Dytalus wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:How can 1.000+ be same as 1.000.000+?

Is 1,000,000 greater than 1,000? Then it falls into the 1,000+ category. Ergo, something over 1,000,000 is also over 1,000.

No, that doesn't work that.
1.000+ may only go to 1 million, not more ( logically because there is no more thousands, then millions ), 1.000.000+ can go to billion, not more.
So when I say thousands I might go only to 1.000.000+ ( 50.000, 500.000, 999.999 ), I can't say there are thousand planets in galaxy when there is billions of them .
So your theory falls into water


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Void__Dragon wrote:
The "thousands of Tomb Worlds" example is referring to a specific kind of Tomb World, worlds where every Necron inside has been rendered mindless necessitating the Tomb World exerting control of all Necrons directly, referred to as Severed Worlds.

The contradiction exists only in your mind.

I read it again, carefully. I saw the word "mindless automatons", you were right.

At least we still have MILLIONS of Imperial Guard Regiments

And we orkses got billions upon billions uv orkses

Da Tin 'eads probly does 'ave a buncha spare tin'ead ladz too, wiv millions uv worlds..

Yer point?


*unorks with a pop*

Necrons are a galactic threat, but no longer an organised one . They are now too fragmented to affect the whole galaxy on a single purpose, which isn't to say that they couldn't be reunited eventually, or come up with a purpose that most Tomb Worlds would sign on to.

Pity. I didn't have high hopes for the necron fluff in the new dex, but they REALLY took a shafting, fluffwise.

*edit for spelling errors, expansion and orkmoticons..*

I'm not a fan of what i have heard of this new fluff. The old necrons had plenty of character as is and the whole re write of their fluf is a major letdown. maybe someday i will read the new dex, but now that the soulless, relentless machines out to harvest the galaxy are gone, it seems mmm pointless. I mean making deals with people. trading. harumph.

Ascalam wrote:And we orkses got billions upon billions uv orkses

Da Tin 'eads probly does 'ave a buncha spare tin'ead ladz too, wiv millions uv worlds..

Yer point?

My point is with billion upon billions of Orks, Humans, Tyranids Necrons will have a great time trying to take over galaxy again.
Especially disorganized and separated.

I was pointing out (via orkiness..i'm tired and revert to ork easily) that the Necrons have millions of regiments too...

That said, i agree with you that they would have difficulty taking the galaxy, as you may have noted from the part of my post you didn't quote

Necrons used to be a monolithic entity of ungodly uberness, capable of snuffing any other race out (fluffwise) with awesomely advanced technology.

Now they are robotic Eldar with I 2 and slower (marginally tougher) transports. (well sort of, anyway..)

Brother Coa wrote:How can 1.000+ be same as 1.000.000+?

If you read the fluff carefully, you will see that the 1000 worlds are tombworlds where the necrons are just automatons, an error within the tombworld where only programming lives ( so you can play the old necrons.). so no necron lords with there own agenda, just simply murder everything we come into contact with.

those 1000 worlds are just a part of the millions of worlds the necrons have.

Overall I prefer the Necrons to have millions vs thousands of Tomb Worlds. That way people can stop whining how they've been nerfed into a localized threat. Even splintered into countless dynasties, a million tomb worlds is nothing to sneeze at.