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We don't need posts like this on Dakka.

If you can't contribute in a meaningful and polite manner then don't post in the thread.

Reds8n

FifteenHours wrote:lol to be honest now this thread has just made me hate people that moan about GW pricing...

Bunch of middle-class kids moaning about the cost of their shiny little pieces of metal (or plastic) while billions live in desperate poverty... Please, get some perspective.

When is the last time you donated to charity to make such claim?

I often donate to charity when I save some money via discount.

Are you saying we shouldn't enjoy a more affordable hobby till we solve world poverty?

Just so you know, affording something is one thing.
Justifying price's worth is completely different.

I can have 20 million dollars and I will still think GW is expensive.
Just like I bet you'll think a $1 pebble is expensive.

n0t_u wrote:Then why waste time complaining about those who complain about trivial things instead of going out and helping those people?

Because when I read threads like this I want to climb a clocktower instead...

There's always playing all of them, none of them are exclusive.

Then the tired old point "disliking GW =/= disliking 40k/WHFB". I agree though it does get tiring watching both sides yelling "me right", clearly the loudest one wins. Hence why I don't really participate all that much in these threads.

FifteenHours wrote:

n0t_u wrote:Then why waste time complaining about those who complain about trivial things instead of going out and helping those people?

Because when I read threads like this I want to climb a clocktower instead...

Then just don't read them, it's surprisingly easy and saves a lot of unneeded stress. These do pop up all the time after all and once you've seen one you've basically seen them all.

I find there's a very easy way to look at the problem. A good army may cost £300-ish. If you want to start any hobby, this is pretty much the minimum cost for good equipment. A good guitar will cost £300 minimum. One of my friends once explained that his best fishing rod was £1000. So it's not that it's expensive. In fact, for a hobby, this can be considered relatively cheap.

FifteenHours wrote:Honestly, I went to a new gaming store this weekend that opened up recently selling Infinity and Warmachine stuff. I found the models to be barely any cheaper than Games Workshop 40k models.
Also, most non-gaming model kits around are not much cheaper than Games Workshop models. e.g an Airfix type of tank will cost £15.00-20.00 while a GW Chimera will cost 20 quid and a LRBT will cost £30.00 but are usually superior models.

Of course the only thing is that most 40k armies you need many many times more models that gaming systems such as Infinity (unless you play GK of course). But this is about the only issue and if you want small Infinity sized games then you can equally play 500-750 point 40k games for the same price with some 40k armies.

I admit I used to be "bitching at GW prices" all the time, but honestly looking at competing gaming systems and models they aren't all that bad. Sure, some things are not acceptable; like finecast is poor in my opinion for the price and the price of paints is not good value for money, with Vallejo being cheaper and of equal quality imo. Also the way they have treated fanfilms and fiction in the past has been questionable. So I still have a lot of criticism and scrutiny for them.

I think the fact so many people crying about the high prices had made me look into it more objectively and found out that actually the crying is often not justifiable.

Warmachine stuff is as overpriced as GW stuff. The size of the game shouldn't matter.

Infinity is a smaller company but still overpriced.

The non-gaming kits you are flat out wrong about. The amount of detail on those makes them worth the money. (or at least in my small experience with them they were)

The size of the game shouldn't matter when considering the value of a miniature.

Some company's like the new Hawk Wargames and Maelstrom Games's Banebeasts/Banelords do some amazing unique sculpts with great quality resin and the prices are more justifiable.

But even they cost too much. Historical's have pricing right.,




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p_gray99 wrote:I find there's a very easy way to look at the problem. A good army may cost £300-ish. If you want to start any hobby, this is pretty much the minimum cost for good equipment. A good guitar will cost £300 minimum. One of my friends once explained that his best fishing rod was £1000. So it's not that it's expensive. In fact, for a hobby, this can be considered relatively cheap.

To be fair, fishing can get you fish and you can win money in competitions.

But you cant really win squat with GW because they are too stupid and lazy to create a good clear set of rules made for tournament play and they are too stupid and lazy to support a proper tournament scene.

LunaHound wrote:

FifteenHours wrote:lol to be honest now this thread has just made me hate people that moan about GW pricing...

Bunch of middle-class kids moaning about the cost of their shiny little pieces of metal (or plastic) while billions live in desperate poverty... Please, get some perspective.

When is the last time you donated to charity to make such claim?

I often donate to charity when I save some money via discount.

Are you saying we shouldn't enjoy a more affordable hobby till we solve world poverty?

Just so you know, affording something is one thing.
Justifying price's worth is completely different.

I can have 20 million dollars and I will still think GW is expensive.
Just like I bet you'll think a $1 pebble is expensive.

Poverty of Peace - Vlad will know

Tried Google, cant find anything...
can explain to me directly? :3

Possibly Vlad as in Vladimir Putin? The rest not sure on, maybe sort of poking at the relation between peace and poverty.

Though more likely just gone past it all.

LunaHound wrote:Tried Google, cant find anything...
can explain to me directly? :3

Sorry, that was an inside joke with another user I was PM'ing (vladtheimpaler)


Actually on topic - I share the view that quite a few other dakka users have. When you entered the Hobby you were well aware that it was expensive. Now that I actually make salaried income, my spending ahs actually went up. Previously as a starving college student? Not as much!! People whine all the time about GW/Warhammer's prices. It is an internet forum, and that is what a lot of internet forums are for. Arguing POV, discussing matters, and whining a tad bit.

If you are financially unfit to wargame, then don't until you are. I blew the majority of money I was making at 16/17 when I started up 40k. If you can support your addiction go ahead. The products are getting better and better. Yes the price goes up. It is a worthwile hobby to get into, if you have the funds. Whining is something that happens on the internet and outside the FLGS. Who cares what other people say, it is your hobby and your money.

Auxellion wrote:When you entered the Hobby you were well aware that it was expensive..[/b]

oo yes and no, but I see what you mean.

But now see it from the other side :'P
There has been like 2 price hikes atleast within the last 5 years, around 20% increase.

When I first started warhammer, you are right, it was tolerable.
However I ( assume ) this is why it hurts.

You simultaneously sit through and witness the price increase
while also having the increased prices rising near / beyond the threshold.

I imagine, that is what triggers the reaction, its logical.

LunaHound wrote:
Just like I bet you'll think a $1 pebble is expensive.

I've seen some "pebbles" going for thousands of dollars.. they are usually surrounded by soft metallic materials as well.... I know during certain times of year, I'm sorta expected to buy some of these, so I guess women generally like these pebbles

FifteenHours wrote:lol to be honest now this thread has just made me hate people that moan about GW pricing...

Bunch of middle-class kids moaning about the cost of their shiny little pieces of metal (or plastic) while billions live in desperate poverty... Please, get some perspective.

Ohhh right I forgot no one is allowed to complain about anything short of starvation....... brilliant.


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FifteenHours wrote:

n0t_u wrote:Then why waste time complaining about those who complain about trivial things instead of going out and helping those people?

Because when I read threads like this I want to climb a clocktower instead...

Maybe you just need to take a step back and realize you are taking things a little to seriously.

LunaHound wrote:

Auxellion wrote:When you entered the Hobby you were well aware that it was expensive..[/b]

oo yes and no, but I see what you mean.

But now see it from the other side :'P
There has been like 2 price hikes atleast within the last 5 years, around 20% increase.

When I first started warhammer, you are right, it was tolerable.
However I ( assume ) this is why it hurts.

You simultaneously sit through and witness the price increase
while also having the increased prices rising near / beyond the threshold.

I imagine, that is what triggers the reaction, its logical.

When I was 16 - I made X every month
When I was 18 - I made X*1.5 every month
When I was 20 - I made X*3 every month
Now I'm 21 and I make X*10 or so every month

My income increases as I get older, as does my ability to spend. I simply don't mind the price increases. As an adult, if you want to buy a few items for your hobby, simply budget for it. I've argued in a few other threads about "Fluff" money and how 40k is cheaper then alternative Hobbies.

Would a speedball player complain about the amount of money they spend on paintballing? Golf? Going drinking 2-3 nights a week with the bros? Going to games every week or two with season tickets? dirt biking? Most hobbies are expensive. IMHO you get a more bang for your buck with 40k. I find the way they raised the prices unjustified, but I'm not a young kid anymore. As adults (I'm 21 so I'm still inbetween the adult and kid threshold) - we can make large purchases and allocate funds to support our hobby.

From what I've gathered and read a good majority of the users complaining tend to be in the 17-24 age area. Teens and College kids. When I was in college I barely had money to shell out for Warhammer products. Adults with careers really shouldn't have an issue with this hobby's prices. I think they whine more for the "Style" that GW goes about doing things and the lack of care/ignorance GW continues to show to the community. That I agree with. It's GW as a company, the products themselves are great!! (I won't go into Scale Tank Kits vs GW Leman Russ argument in terms of quality, but for the amount of supported miniatures the game has!)

fifteenhours is a skilled troll. Applauding/10

Auxellion wrote:From what I've gathered and read a good majority of the users complaining tend to be in the 17-24 age area. Teens and College kids. When I was in college I barely had money to shell out for Warhammer products. Adults with careers really shouldn't have an issue with this hobby's prices.

Yep 100%
But I think GW targets children as their selling audience, so its hard to not whine.

I think they whine more for the "Style" that GW goes about doing things and the lack of care/ignorance GW continues to show to the community. That I agree with. It's GW as a company, the products themselves are great!! (I won't go into Scale Tank Kits vs GW Leman Russ argument in terms of quality, but for the amount of supported miniatures the game has!)

Yes, short termed business plan. Weird and smells of desperation to satisfy annual stock, but what do I know :'P

fifteenhours is a skilled troll. Applauding/10

Thus I only responded once to him

I can understand how someone could think that GW prices are ridiculous and possibly a waste of money but warhamms is not for everyone i suppose. It's a hobby and the cost is not cheap but compared to other hobbies it's not that expensive. For me, a single tac squad box will keep me busy for close to a month if not more with cutting, sanding, posing and glueing then the painting... so much painting. I think its actually cheaper than going to starbucks 3 times a week(depending on what you order). Plus there is a return on your investment so if you lose interest or financial situations change you have the ability to sell your warhamms and recoup some of the money. can't do that with starbucks.

Baldsmug wrote:I can understand how someone could think that GW prices are ridiculous and possibly a waste of money but warhamms is not for everyone i suppose. It's a hobby and the cost is not cheap but compared to other hobbies it's not that expensive. For me, a single tac squad box will keep me busy for close to a month if not more with cutting, sanding, posing and glueing then the painting... so much painting. I think its actually cheaper than going to starbucks 3 times a week(depending on what you order). Plus there is a return on your investment so if you lose interest or financial situations change you have the ability to sell your warhamms and recoup some of the money. can't do that with starbucks.

Exactly. I think people complain becaus

Edit: Something happened there. Nevermind, it wasn't that relevant anyway.

The OP asks: How does people crying about the cost of GW products affect the way you think about the product.

The answer is: It shouldn't. Each person's price tolerance is determined by their financial situation and perception of value. The din of people crying that GW is too expensive, or people crying that the complainers should STFU is an outgrowth of like-minded people banding together on the internets seeking some kind of validation of their views.

My answer is: IMHO, GW products passed my threshold for acceptable prices a long time ago. I loved three things about the HHHobby.

1. Ability to customize your armies. The new "streamlined" codexes have one or two effective builds and the rest is just filler. This takes the joy out of tweaking lists, when half of the players choices units are uncompetitive.

2. Ability to convert. I love bashing kits together. Saddly, the high base cost of the kits is pushing the cost of even basic conversions (i.e. bashing 2 kits together) past $100 in Canada. For example, if the new Necron spider guy and the Talos were both in the $30-35 range, I'd have bashed them together into a daemon engine. Unfortunately, the actual cost to combine the two kits is a hefty $115.

3. I have an invisible price hobby barrier around the $50 mark and again at the $100 mark. If I'm getting lots of use out of the product I can sometimes push past this. The new PP 10 man box sets are an example of where the $80 price-point requires that I condition myself a bit before buying it - mostly that the amount of in-game use I'll get out of it will offset the cost. As I find my HHHobby time decreasing as I age, this offset is harder to justify - especially coupled with my disatisfaction with the state of the core rules, and the poor utility distribution across units in codexes. Due to my love of converting, when my basic squad + transports all jumped above $100 - this pretty much put the final nail in the coffin for me in terms of GW army purchases.

I still buy the odd paints and terrain however.

If GW makes a huge turnaround in 6th Edition and I find myself suddenly playing lots of 40k - There could be a resulting shift in my perception of "value for money" of GW product. Until then, GW product represents very "poor value for money" in my mind.

I can afford to buy a lot of other things with what I used to spend on 40k stuff. There's basically no looking back now.

My hobbies are thus:
1) Warmachine and board gaming
2) Disc Golf

Basically buying a lot of things for those 2 hobbies has been infinitely more fulfilling. To relate this to the OP, other people's commentary about the pricing didn't really effect my opinion of the products so much as empirical evidence.

Also when I think about the rumored price of the 6th Edition rulebook, it makes me want to play dystopian wars and not spend a chunk of cash on new rules for old minis.

RatBot wrote:EDIT: You know what? I was gonna leave it alone. If you think that GW models really are worth 30% than Mantic's, that's fine, that's your opinon.

But you had to sneak this in here:

my original point has been proven that people tend to exaggerate the price differences between GW and alternative systems.

So allow me to retort:
http://www.miniaturemarket.com/table-top-miniatures/kings-of-war/undead.html

Oh look! Ten Skeletons for 12 USD, whereas with GW, even at the same discount, would cost $18.

And here's your heavy weapon team!
http://www.miniaturemarket.com/mancpc231.html

Sure, it retails for only $1.50 less then the GW one discounted, but TA DA! Here it is at only $22, which is about $7 less than a discounted GW one!

"Oh, but that's only one webstore!" you may snort. And yes, that's only one webstore. Here's a second:
http://www.thewarstore.com/product71576.html

And another:
http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=mtc_wpt_cpn_spt_101_000

So yes, there IS a serious discrepancy between GW and Mantic prices.

Why the hell do people think that the discount web stores apply to GW somehow magically ONLY applies to GW products?

So my original point has been proven that pretty much every other tabletop game is, overall, cheaper than GW, and people will go to great lengths to justify GW's outrageous prices.

Again, I don't doubt you really feel that GW's miniatures are worth the cost. That's your opinion, and it's fine. But don't act like there's no difference between the cost of playing GW games and the cost of playing other games, even games on the same scale.

How many of these minis that everybody so proud of are made by child labor in China? Just saying...

True about the 'child labor' as a UK resident the fact that it is a source of manufacturing employment is worth supporting to some degree.

Also off the top of my head :

SLR £300-£3000 + lenses
'Art' (acrylic painting) £50+, water colour cheaper, oil more expensive
40k/Warhammer £250-£350 to get 1500-2000 pts not incl rules
25pt Warmahordes Miniatures inc ruels£120-150ish
Infinity starter £20 (terrain = paper/free, rules = free)
Hhhobby supplies (bought sensibly) £75-£150
Fishing £90 - £400 depends on how serious
Cycling £500+
Golf £LOL
Computer Gaming £700+++
Console Gaming £300 + HDTV
Musical Instrument (barring Harmonica, tin whistle or Uklele!) £150-£400 ?

Phototoxin wrote:Musical Instrument (barring Harmonica, tin whistle or Uklele!) £150-£400 ?

Whilst I've undoubtably spent more on miniatures, I've spend around £650 on my drum kit, and that's low because I bought a £700 kit reduced to £450 in a sale. Just to back up that statement / add a higher maximum band.

Oh, and I should add that my Dad has probably spent upwards of four grand on Roland electronic kits and accessories.

Phototoxin wrote:
Cycling £500+

this figure is also seriously lowballing the sport of cycling, that 500 pounds you put would get you the most bare minimum Ti framed road bike... This does not include fit, helmet, and other accessories that are almost mandatory.

While I am not as deep into cycling as some, i am deeper than others.. I have spent over 3k on bike, plus 200 or so on fit, another 300 on shoes plus pedals, helmet, and another ridiculous amount on the spandex/lycra shorts and jerseys.

So yeah, I understand that compared to 40k, my cycling hobby is insanely expensive, but as others have pointed out the personal value of cycling still outweighs the monetary costs that I have had thus far.

I already had a helmet - but my road bike was about 500. You also need things like lights, pump etc.

I agree that cycling is good value.

Personally I think 40k is good value as it lasts a long time, hours of entertainment and is sociable.

Phototoxin wrote:

Personally I think 40k is good value as it lasts a long time, hours of entertainment and is sociable.

Agree! Its whats you get out of it and I'm currently getting my moneys worth.

htj wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:Musical Instrument (barring Harmonica, tin whistle or Uklele!) £150-£400 ?

Whilst I've undoubtably spent more on miniatures, I've spend around £650 on my drum kit, and that's low because I bought a £700 kit reduced to £450 in a sale. Just to back up that statement / add a higher maximum band.

Oh, and I should add that my Dad has probably spent upwards of four grand on Roland electronic kits and accessories.

Yeah, 150 is some low end crap (or the $225ish). At $600 you'll have a respectable axe and amp (plus cables, tuner, but no fun stuff).

The OP asks: How does people crying about the cost of GW products affect the way you think about the product.

The answer is: It shouldn't. Each person's price tolerance is determined by their financial situation and perception of value. The din of people crying that GW is too expensive, or people crying that the complainers should STFU is an outgrowth of like-minded people banding together on the internets seeking some kind of validation of their views.

Ultimately, this.

If you feel it's worth it, that's fine. Go nuts, fill a swimming pool with GW minis.

I just got very annoyed with FifteenHours' gross distortion of fact, is all. In terms of miniatures, GW isn't the most expensive, but in terms of amount spent to play a typical sized game (even in the book it says something like "1500-2000 points is good for an evening's game"), it is. And again, if you think it's worth it, then godspeed you. I do, in fact, like 40K as a game, and its background, and its miniatures. I just don't think it's worth $500+ for 'em, when I can get the same quantity of Mantic miniatures for 2/3 the price, or a full Warmachine army for half the price, or just play low model count non-GW games for less than $100.

Byte wrote:How many of these minis that everybody so proud of are made by child labor in China? Just saying...

Given what I've seen of Mantic, I'm pretty sure they own their own injection molds in Britain. Privateer prints most of their models in Seattle, and Corvus Belli is a Spanish company. Want to try that again?

Oooh, I missed that. I'm pretty sure that GW actually recently opened a new factory in China, didn't they? So.... Just sayin'.

FifteenHours wrote:This whole argument makes no sense.

40k/GW offers a gaming system that offers the consumer the chance to collect armies that has hundreds of models, if they can afford it. But it also offers armies that are smaller and more affordable. It's your choice.

Infinity offers a gaming system that offers small 10 model armies and there is no option to field ridiculously large armies.

Why did you start playing 40k if you didn't like the prices? It's kind of akin to someone buying cocaine and then complaining about the prices. "Oh, but I like it too much to stop buying it. How unfair!" ... Or someone buying a computer game and then complaining about the fact you need to buy a memory upgrade for your computer to get the absolute best graphics out of it.

Fair point.

I play WFB, but the same principles apply. GW prices for their minis have reached a point where I think they are no longer worth the value, and so I purchase minis made by other companies to play WFB with. When my armies get upgraded, I will buy the new book; when the new edition comes out, again I will buy the new book so I can continue playing the game.

But do not mistake my love for the game for any sort of attachment to GW miniatures. I find them to be (in general) overpriced pieces of grimdark mediocrity. And frankly, GW miniatures are not necessary to play GW games.


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RatBot wrote:....because when I started an army cost about half as much as it does now.

And fething hell, I mentioned Infinity ONCE. Enough about fething Infinity.

Fine, let's compare to a company with a similar model of "large numbers of plastic models", Mantic:

2000 points of GW Vampire Counts might be something like
-a Vampire Lord ($18)
-a BSB, ($19)
-a Necromancer ($15).
From Mantic, I can get a four pack of characters for $30.

-~60 Zombies. $105 from GW. $80 from Mantic
-~2x30 Skeletons $148.50 from GW $75 from Mantic.
-20 Grave Guard. $82.50 from GW. $25 from Mantic.
-10 Black Knights. $66 from GW. $45 from Mantic.

TOTAL: $465 from GW. $255 from Mantic.

I'll go you one better. My massive Mantic Dwarf army cost me around $275. Getting the equivalent pieces from GW would have cost $1100.

Any more questions?


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p_gray99 wrote:I find there's a very easy way to look at the problem. A good army may cost £300-ish. If you want to start any hobby, this is pretty much the minimum cost for good equipment. A good guitar will cost £300 minimum. One of my friends once explained that his best fishing rod was £1000. So it's not that it's expensive. In fact, for a hobby, this can be considered relatively cheap.

How did you get this far without seeing my post on this subject?

I'll repeat it, just for you.

Yes, miniature wargaming as a hobby is pretty reasonable.

GW, as a miniature wargame company, is not reasonably priced for the value you are getting. Other manufacturers put out miniatures just as nice for far less.

Let's take cavalry for example. Older GW sets are $35 for 8, newer sets are $33 for 5. Perry charges about that much for 18!!! and they're just as nice, if with a different aesthetic.

Tell me again that GW is cheap as a miniature wargame company


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Byte wrote:How many of these minis that everybody so proud of are made by child labor in China? Just saying...

I understand Mantic is a small operation by a couple of guys in England operating out of a basement. Just saying...